Losing Salvation

[Pax]

Louemma in Christ,

We already agree that there is heresy out there among Christians (e.g. OSAS). How much heresy is dangerous to salvation? When does it go beyond the point of allowing us to say that someone is not Christian? How important is it that we actually have the fullness of truth as opposed to only part of it?

God bless.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Louemma in Christ,

I do not mean to be uncharitable and what I am about to say is not a personal attack, but rather a historical fact that now puts a yoke upon you as a non-Catholic.

Please be advised that during the Reformation many people left the Church. Initially, it was Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli that broke away and left the Church. Many followed them out of the Church and others began additional denominations over time until we arrived at where we are today with thousands of splinters in Christianity.

You rightly point to an error in mentioning OSAS as a heresy. This heresy is held by a pretty large number of people that claim to be Christians. Unfortunately, there are many other heresies that are held by our separated brothers and sisters in Christ in either adopting something novel or in denying something that is true.

Believe it or not, there is an easy way to figure out what is heresy and what is not heresy even if scripture is not clear on a particular subject. You interpret a particular scripture one way and I interpret that scripture differently. We both draw different doctrinal conclusions based upon our varied interpretations. How do we know which of us is correct? We believe in the Lord Jesus with all our heart, and we both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. How do we know which interpretation and doctrine is correct? It cannot be determined by our sincerity. We could actually both be sincere and both be wrong. It could be that a different person with a third interpretation is actually correct. This set of possibilities could be multiplied among sincere, prayerful, and believing Christians and in fact has been over and over again. We have ample evidence of that before us. Every denomination believes that it has the truth. So how do we know which is correct?

The key and answer to this can be found in scripture, and anyone can know what the truth is even without fully understanding scripture and without knowing the original Greek or anything like that. Can you tell me where that key and answer is in scripture? If you do not know what I am driving at then let me know. I would, however, like you to think carefully about this before you give your answer. This post is in its entirety a back drop to that answer.

God bless.

Gee, the way you set this up, I can hardly stand the suspense…TELL US!

 

[Louemma]

Louemma in Christ,

We already agree that there is heresy out there among Christians (e.g. OSAS). How much heresy is dangerous to salvation? When does it go beyond the point of allowing us to say that someone is not Christian? How important is it that we actually have the fullness of truth as opposed to only part of it?

God bless.

I agree there is heresy among the Christians.
It’s admirable the way the Catholics come to the defense of their faith.
If the Catholics teach that the Catholic church can offer salvation by being a part of the church(as one poster had pointed out) then is this not a false doctrine?There is only one way to receiving salvation.For some to say,“One can be some saved by the church” is a falling away of the true gospel.
Jesus said of Peter"Upon this Rock I build my Church" so do the Catholics think that Peter had the ability to forgive sins and give eternal life through the Church?Do the Catholics think the Pope is able to forgive sins and give eternal life,since you call him the Holy Father?
Perhaps I don’t have a clear understanding when you say"The Church can save someone if a person is part of the body of Christ,which the Catholics believe the body of Christ is the Catholic Church.Could this be the ones who Jesus claims he never knew?It’s a strong possibility that the folks who think they are going to Heaven on the wings of the Catholic Church are in for a horrible discovery when God tells them he don’t even know them.
It certainly is something for those who believe this way to take stock of their own salvation.Now I do know that all Catholics don’t believe this way but you can read for yourselves to know that there are some among you who do believe the church can save them.Maybe the Pope teaches this.If he does then this is certainly the heresy among Christians your speaking of.

 

[RosaryFan]

Do the Catholics believe"Once Saved ,Always Saved?

If we did, then we wouldn’t need the sacrament of Reconciliation, which when visited often, gives great strength and grace to STAY saved

 

[Pax]

I agree there is heresy among the Christians.
It’s admirable the way the Catholics come to the defense of their faith.
If the Catholics teach that the Catholic church can offer salvation by being a part of the church(as one poster had pointed out) then is this not a false doctrine?There is only one way to receiving salvation.For some to say,“One can be some saved by the church” is a falling away of the true gospel.
Jesus said of Peter"Upon this Rock I build my Church" so do the Catholics think that Peter had the ability to forgive sins and give eternal life through the Church?Do the Catholics think the Pope is able to forgive sins and give eternal life,since you call him the Holy Father?
Perhaps I don’t have a clear understanding when you say"The Church can save someone if a person is part of the body of Christ,which the Catholics believe the body of Christ is the Catholic Church.Could this be the ones who Jesus claims he never knew?It’s a strong possibility that the folks who think they are going to Heaven on the wings of the Catholic Church are in for a horrible discovery when God tells them he don’t even know them.
It certainly is something for those who believe this way to take stock of their own salvation.Now I do know that all Catholics don’t believe this way but you can read for yourselves to know that there are some among you who do believe the church can save them.Maybe the Pope teaches this.If he does then this is certainly the heresy among Christians your speaking of.

You’re off on a tangent and did not address the point and questions I submitted.

Before I get back to that, I’ll address what you did say. Please be advised that without the Catholic Church you would not have the bible. The Catholic Church assembled the bible and established the canon of what was scripture and what was not. Without the Church we would be clueless as to what should and should not be in the Canon of Scripture.

That having been said what does scripture say about the gospel and salvation? The following should be informative for you:

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation

Louemma in Christ,

The Catholic Church saves in the sense that the Church assembled, canonized, preserved, and most importantly “correctly” preaches and administers the gospel.

No one claims that the Church provides salvation outside of Christ or separate from him. No one claims that the Church has accomplished anything outside of God’s power and grace. On the contrary, Jesus himself established his Church as a necessary part of his work and plan of salvation.

This is what scripture says about the Church:

1 Tim 3:15
…the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

In the gospel Jesus tells us that he is the truth, and we are told that if we know the truth, the truth will set us free. Likewise, we know that we cannot be saved unless we know Jesus. We must know the truth…we must know Jesus…we must know the truth about Jesus. The Church is the pillar and bulwark of that truth.

The importance and the role of the Church in God’s plan of salvation cannot be down played. Jesus, himself, established his Church and he did so for the salvation of souls.
This does not mean that just because you are a member of the Church that you’re automatically saved. I personally don’t know anyone that thinks that way.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

Louemma in Christ,

In my earlier post I wrote the following and hoped to get a direct response. I’ll let you read this over again, and then you can read my follow-up below it.

Louemma in Christ,

I do not mean to be uncharitable and what I am about to say is not a personal attack, but rather a historical fact that now puts a yoke upon you as a non-Catholic.

Please be advised that during the Reformation many people left the Church. Initially, it was Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli that broke away and left the Church. Many followed them out of the Church and others began additional denominations over time until we arrived at where we are today with thousands of splinters in Christianity.

You rightly point to an error in mentioning OSAS as a heresy. This heresy is held by a pretty large number of people that claim to be Christians. Unfortunately, there are many other heresies that are held by our separated brothers and sisters in Christ in either adopting something novel or in denying something that is true.

Believe it or not, there is an easy way to figure out what is heresy and what is not heresy even if scripture is not clear on a particular subject. You interpret a particular scripture one way and I interpret that scripture differently. We both draw different doctrinal conclusions based upon our varied interpretations. How do we know which of us is correct? We believe in the Lord Jesus with all our heart, and we both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. How do we know which interpretation and doctrine is correct? It cannot be determined by our sincerity. We could actually both be sincere and both be wrong. It could be that a different person with a third interpretation is actually correct. This set of possibilities could be multiplied among sincere, prayerful, and believing Christians and in fact has been over and over again. We have ample evidence of that before us. Every denomination believes that it has the truth. So how do we know which is correct?

The key and answer to this can be found in scripture, and anyone can know what the truth is even without fully understanding scripture and without knowing the original Greek or anything like that. Can you tell me where that key and answer is in scripture? If you do not know what I am driving at then let me know. I would, however, like you to think carefully about this before you give your answer. This post is in its entirety a back drop to that answer.

God bless.

Please remember that scripture says that the “Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” Scripture never makes that claim for itself or for the individual Christian. If you want the truth about Jesus, scripture, and doctrine then you must stick with the Church. There is no other “pillar and bulwark of the truth” and so says the inspired word of God.

Think about that, and then think of the natural and logical outcome of not following the teachings of church. In other words, what happens when Christians do not listen to and thus disagree with the Church which scripture calls the “pillar and the bulwark of the truth”? Those that disagree fall into heresy. Those that fall into heresy leave the Church and start their own churches.

What I have just logically described to you is actually stated within scripture itself, and this is why I believe that there is a sure way to distinguish between a true interpretation and doctrine versus those that are false. The explicit scriptural statement upon which my purely logical argument is based is to be found in the following verse.

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

Think about this…that is exactly what happened with every single heresy and that is exactly what happened at the time of the Reformation. Those that did not listen to the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” went out from the Church and it is plain that they are not of the Church established by Christ. This is exactly what Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli did. Moreover, this is exactly what is still going on as others splinter and leave the one true Church. Jesus does not fail in his promises. Jesus did not fail in his promises to his Church. Jesus told the apostles that “he who hears you hears me” and Jesus said that he would be with his Church until the end of time. Those who hear the Church hear Jesus.

 

[Pax]

…
…
Jesus said of Peter"Upon this Rock I build my Church" so do the Catholics think that Peter had the ability to forgive sins and give eternal life through the Church?Do the Catholics think the Pope is able to forgive sins and give eternal life,since you call him the Holy Father?
…
…

Peter, his successors, and those in priestly ministry within the Catholic Church did not receive the mandate for being the ministers of Jesus forgiveness of sin by way of the verse you quoted from Matthew 16:18. The following explanation is the one that I normally give to those that are curious about the sacrament of confession within the Catholic Church.

The reason we confess our sins to a priest is because is because that is the what God wants us to do. Let me explain.

In the book of Genesis we read all about the fall of Adam and Eve and about Cain killing Able. While God knew exactly what had happened and what sins had been committed, God still asks Adam and Eve [see Gen 3:11-14] what they had done. Again, when Cain kills Able in Gen 4:10, God asks Cain “What have you done?” God wants us to confess and it is therefore necessary for us to do so.

So where does the priest fit in? In Leviticus 5:5-6 we have a solid prefiguring/foreshadowing of confession and this is carried over into the New Covenant. In Lev. 5:5-6 it says, “When a man is guilty in any of these, he shall confess the sin he has committed, and he shall bring his guilt offering to the Lord for the sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.” Note how the penitent must confess and take his sin offering to the priest, and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin. This requires knowledge of the sin on the part of the priest.

In the New Testament we have a number of verses that refer to the authority to forgive sins. In Matthew 9:6-8, we read “But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–he then said to the paralytic --“Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men." Notice how scripture says that such authority had been given to men. This is significant and is not merely a coincidence. This is the inspired word of God.

The question of authority and power to forgive sin is given obviously to Jesus and this is further affirmed in Matthew 28:18 where we are told, "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

So just how is this authority transfered to the apostles and their successors? In John 20:21-23 "Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” This is an incredible set of verses. They are rich in meaning and power. Notice that Jesus sends the apostles in the same way that the Father sent Him. The Father sent Jesus with all power and authority which included the power to forgive sins. So also Jesus sends the apostles. Jesus breathes on the apostles and says, “receive the Holy Spirit.” There is only one other time in all of scripture where God breathes on man, and that is in Genesis when God breathes life into Adam. This is a significant moment in the upper room and it is at this moment that Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven: if you retain the sins of any they are retained.”

Later in the new testament scriptures we find additional verses that speak to confession and reconciliation. The most significant are the following:

2 Corinthians 5: 17-20
Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

James 5:14-15
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters [priests] of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (“presbyter” is the root word from which we get the term priest)

James 5:16
Therefore confess you sins to one another….

Matthew 18:18
Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (In Jewish culture and faith the power to bind and loose carries a juridical dimension and has application to the forgiveness of sin)

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

…
…
Do the Catholics think the Pope is able to forgive sins and give eternal life,since you call him the Holy Father?
…
…

The Pope and those in priestly ministry have been given the authority as Jesus representatives on earth to give absolution in confession as I outlined from scripture in my previous post. They stand in for Jesus as earthly representatives, but all forgiveness ultimately comes from God. The Pope and those in priestly ministry cannot give eternal life. Only God gives eternal life by way of grace gained through the redemptive work of Jesus our Lord and Savior.

We refer to the Pope as Holy Father and we routinely refer to a priest as father. This practice is consistent with what Paul says about himself.

1Cor 4:15 I [Paul] became your father through the Gospel.

Phm 1:10 Paul refers to himself as spiritual father to Onesimus.

Paul even says this about Abraham:

Rom 4:16 Abraham is the father of us all

Sometimes non-Catholic Christians object to the Catholic practice of calling the priest “father.” This is a bit strange since most non-Catholic Christians did the same thing in addressing their ministers until sometime in the early 19th century. This change came about to further distance non-Catholic Christianity from Catholic practice and it was justified by citing Matthew 23:9 which says “Call no man on earth father.” The attempt to use this verse against Catholic practice is contradicted by Paul’s usage above, and can only be explained by a complete misunderstanding of why Jesus made the statement.

The following will help explain what Jesus really meant by the command to call “no man on earth father.”

In Judaism at the time of Jesus there were various sects or houses of religious thought. The most well known of these were the Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes, and Zealots

These sects had houses of teaching within them .

Within the Pharisees there were two famous rival houses. They were the House of Shammai(Beit Shammai) and the House of Hillel (founder of the Beit Hillel school). The individuals that these houses were named after were considered the “father” of the house.

Jesus warns the apostles not to be fathers to “separate” houses for there is but one house of the Lord. In that same conversation found in Matthew 23, Jesus also says to call no man “teacher” or “master.”

–side note:
Paul was taught by Gamaliel[Acts22:3], a pharisee from the house of Hillel. Gamaliel was, in fact, the grandson of Hillel. Gamaliel was known as an elder and had the title of “Rabban” which means “Our Master.” This title explains why Jesus also said call no one “master”, for there is but one house and one master of all.

Again, Jesus wanted unity see John 17], and does not want the apostles to set up separate houses or schools of thought. The corollary of this is clearly expressed in Paul’s complaint in 1 Cor 1:10-15 where some are arguing their superiority by being baptized by, and belonging to, Paul vs. Apollos, or Cephas, etc. Paul goes on elsewhere to further warn against factions and divisions, and stresses the importance of one mind and unity of doctrine.

The meaning of “call no man father, teacher, or master” concerns unity and consistency of doctrine and has nothing to do with the commonly used references that are seen elsewhere in scripture or everyday use. Our Pope and priests are of one house and that house is the apostolic church established by Jesus himself.

I hope this helps and God bless.

 

[brb2]

A person becomes a part of the body of Christ when they accept Jesus as their savior and this person is filled with the spirit of Jesus.

Yes, accepting Christ as Savior & Lord, by grace thru faith. Drawn by God to reject ourselves as king … and to call upon him as our new King. Justified, adopted, and made a New Creation ‘IN CHRIST’.

Plenty of Protestants have done this … and received spiritual ‘rebirth’. We were ‘healed’ by Christ. But, next we learn Christ gave us another command. “Go and sin no more”.

How can one thrive in this world for very long … w/o bonding to the covenantal body of Christ, his Church & its Sacraments ? The Cath. Church most closely fulfills the scriptural & historical requirements of the ‘Primitive’ Church of the Apostles. Read the ECF’s … follow them from the Apostles to Middle Age times. Their writings tell the true story of Catholicism in the first 700 years. It will only take you 6-9 months to convince yourself of this PROOF. The ECF’s were not always in 100 % agreement … but, the concensus viewpoint always kept the ARK afloat. Christ said in Scripture his Church would never fail … show me another church that fulfills that prophesy !

 

[Louemma]

What about those among you that have the understanding that the Catholic Church can save a person?
I understand what you all are saying as far as how you believe and why but there are some Catholics that believe just because they are Catholic they are saved by the church.The church can not save anyone.
So of course with this type of belief we need to tell these folks the only way anyone can be saved is through Jesus.
The problem I see is there are some Catholics that think the Catholic Church is the body of Christ,when in fact the body of Christ are those who are born again by the Spirit.“Spirit gives birth to spirit”
Of course we know there is the one true church.This true church is made up of those who are born of the Spirit.So we know the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus and if one is born again of the Spirit of Jesus then these are the ones who make up the body of Christ.
My point to this whole thread is to point out that I have read other threads on this forum where Catholics believe that they are the only ones who receive salvation.I have read where Catholics think that it is possible for “Non-Catholics” to be saved and even read one post where someone stated that a non Catholic could be saved because they were Catholic and didn’t know it.Do you all know how ridiculous this sounds?Catholic belief is just that,a way of believing.If a person is part of the Catholic faith and they are not born again by the Spirit,this person will in no way enter the kingdom of Heaven.To teach the Catholic church can and will get them to Heaven is a false teaching,same as thinking we can pray people out of Purgatory.These souls are not getting out of Purgatory until they have paid the last of their debt
The only way anyone will inherit the Kingdom of God is to be born again by the Spirit.Whether your Catholic,Baptist or Pentecostal you will not have eternal life unless the son of God gives it and that is by the Spirit.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him,Verily I say unto thee,Except a man be born again,he can not see the Kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him,How can a man be born when he is old?Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb,and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered,Verily,verily,I say unto thee,Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,he can not enter into the Kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee,ye must be born again.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where is listeth,and thou hearest the sound thereof,but canst not tell whence it cometh,and whither it goeth;so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.

Now believe as you will but to assume that the Catholic church alone can save you because you believe it is the body of Christ is a false teaching.Only the ones born of the Spirit will inherit the kingdom of God,these are the true members in the body of Christ.
To wonder if a non catholic can receive salvation is like trying to know where the wind blowing came from and where it’s going.Same with the Holy Spirit and all that are born again by him will live in the kingdom of God.To believe any other teachings goes against what the Gospel the early apostles taught and this would even include Peter.
I wonder if the Pope teaches only Catholics can receive salvation?Does he also teach there will be few outside the Catholic belief that can be saved but only because they are Catholic and don’t know it?

 

[CentralFLJames]

What about those among you that have the understanding that the Catholic Church can save a person?
I understand what you all are saying as far as how you believe and why but there are some Catholics that believe just because they are Catholic they are saved by the church.The church can not save anyone.

Louemma, you keep trying to paint Catholics has having a plurality of beliefs and disunified in our faith. But this just demonstrates your own bias and your own judgemental deficiencies. Catholics have only one common faith. You can look it up in our Catechism and come see it in motion every day of the week at your local Catholic Church’s mass.
I will only grant that it may have been expressed in different ways by Catholics for YOUR convenience to help you bridge the divide between what you imagine and what we really belief in a way that YOU can understand and relate too.

You keep trying to divide The Catholic Church FROM Christ. This is an IMPOSSIBLE labor and is an attempt at a false dichotomy. Did you not hear Christ’s very words when Saul was knocked to the ground and blinded by Christ for persecuting His Church? Jesus made NO distinction between Himself and His Church. Listen closely the words Louemma because YOU are persecuting Christ with your blind ignorance & brainwashed bigoted judgement. Sorry if this sounds so blatant but some self-taught non-apostolic redneck preacher probably put these silly ideas you have into your head. It was NOT the Holy Spirit as you wrongly imagine.
Acts 22:4 “I [Saul] persecuted this "Way’ [Christianity was originally called The Way] to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons, 5 as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify.
…
Acts 22:7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute ME?’*

When you persecute the Church and the Truth as you do here Louemma you persecute Christ. No one who persecutes Christ viz His Church will be saved unless she repents. I am sorry but based on your words you are not saved Louemma until you come out of your ignorance into the light and start working for Christ instead of against Christ and His Church. You are as blind as Saul was before He was transformed and became Paul. Do as Paul did and come to the leaders of the Church and get received into The Catholic Church so that will have the scales of blindness removed from you.

So of course with this type of belief we need to tell these folks the only way anyone can be saved is through Jesus.
The problem I see is there are some Catholics that think the Catholic Church is the body of Christ,when in fact the body of Christ are those who are born again by the Spirit.“Spirit gives birth to spirit”

False dichotomy, The Catholic Church IS the mystical body of Christ - it is supernatural and more than the mere brick and mortar you see from parish to parish. It has a soul - the Holy Spirit. It is the Body of Christ with Christ as its head and all Catholics are the members with the Vicar/Pope His representative spokesperson on earth until He perfects His Church then returns in Glory to consumate the wedding.

Of course we know there is the one true church.This true church is made up of those who are born of the Spirit.So we know the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus and if one is born again of the Spirit of Jesus then these are the ones who make up the body of Christ.

Of course. The one true Church is made up of Catholics who were all born again when they were baptised by water and spirit in baptism.

*Titus 3:5 “He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit”. *

The above verse perfectly describes baptism as it was used in the early Catholic Church.

Have you been baptised yet Louemma? If so YOU are Catholic but just do not know it. Anyone who is baptised is Catholic and is under the authority and leadership of Jesus, His Pope and His Bishops. There is no differentiation between the word Christian and Catholic. There are no divisions or factions in heaven - there is only ONE faith and ONE truth and that faith and truth is Catholic since our faith is the Living Word of God who is Truth - Jesus.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

My point to this whole thread is to point out that I have read other threads on this forum where Catholics believe that they are the only ones who receive salvation.I have read where Catholics think that it is possible for “Non-Catholics” to be saved and even read one post where someone stated that a non Catholic could be saved because they were Catholic and didn’t know it.Do you all know how ridiculous this sounds?Catholic belief is just that,a way of believing.If a person is part of the Catholic faith and they are not born again by the Spirit,this person will in no way enter the kingdom of Heaven.To teach the Catholic church can and will get them to Heaven is a false teaching,same as thinking we can pray people out of Purgatory.These souls are not getting out of Purgatory until they have paid the last of their debt

Take your above post and replace the word Catholic with the word Louemma and judge yourself by your own standard since you are inventing your own private religion based on what YOU WANT to believe. But Louemma has NO apostolic authority to teach her own gospel nor to start her own church. Louemma can not be saved by her own authority to teach us and herself only what Lousmman wants to believe. You do this since you think that a majority rule makes a wrong into a right by numbers. But this is specios reasoning. All you are tryin gto do is put your own mind at rest against the errors that somone put into her head and which do not stand up under Catholic scrutiny.

WHO taught you what you believe Louemma? Ydid not get any of what you say here from the bible. Someone taught you how to read the bible in the way you do to get the errors you do. The Holy Spirit has brought you here to CAF to get corrected when you imagined that the HS brought you hear to teach Catholics how to “get right” and “get saved”.

"Louemma Belief is just that,a way of believing.

The problem Louemma is that YOUR way is not THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. Catholics have The Way already. How many saints who have miracalous works can you point to so as to convince us that a single person ever gained heaven by YOUR WAY?

Now believe as you will but to assume that the Catholic church alone can save you because you believe it is the body of Christ is a false teaching.Only the ones born of the Spirit will inherit the kingdom of God,these are the true members in the body of Christ.
To wonder if a non catholic can receive salvation is like trying to know where the wind blowing came from and where it’s going.Same with the Holy Spirit and all that are born again by him will live in the kingdom of God.To believe any other teachings goes against what the Gospel the early apostles taught and this would even include Peter.
I wonder if the Pope teaches only Catholics can receive salvation?Does he also teach there will be few outside the Catholic belief that can be saved but only because they are Catholic and don’t know it?

Catholics do not assume anything - we are assured of our correct teaching since it was originally handed down to us 2,000 years ago from the apostles and their direct disciples. We have all their original historical writings and traditions to prove it. How long ago was your Louemma’s Religion handed down to you? Was it when you went to the bookstore and bought your bible (a bible that is written for and by Catholics unless you have a Protestant bible which is a tithe light in weight since your Protestant forefathers could not bear to hear the full truth that condemned their errors).

There is no reason to wonder what the pope teaches since its all well documented in the Catechism.

James

 

[Louemma]

James I’m not persecuting Christ and I’m not twisting any scripture.My concern is that the Catholics think that only the Catholics have true salvation and that’s hog wash.Your post are often long winded and I don’t like responding to you because you are arrogant in your belief.Which is ok for one defending his belief but I’m defending Christ whom you claim I’m persecuting.
To limit Christ as only offering salvation if your in the Catholic belief is arrogant.To believe that Jesus is the Catholic church is a gross misrepresentation of the gospel,the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
That’s the problem you Catholics don’t want to share Jesus so you claim him as yours only and if you want him,become Catholic.Do you see just how stupid this really sounds to someone who knows him?
Jesus is the only way to salvation and Jesus is not the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church is not Jesus.

 

[CentralFLJames]

James I’m not persecuting Christ and I’m not twisting any scripture.My concern is that the Catholics think that only the Catholics have true salvation and that’s hog wash.Your post are often long winded and I don’t like responding to you because you are arrogant in your belief.Which is ok for one defending his belief but I’m defending Christ whom you claim I’m persecuting.
To limit Christ as only offering salvation if your in the Catholic belief is arrogant.To believe that Jesus is the Catholic church is a gross misrepresentation of the gospel,the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
That’s the problem you Catholics don’t want to share Jesus so you claim him as yours only and if you want him,become Catholic.Do you see just how stupid this really sounds to someone who knows him?

But you are persecuting Christ when you malign the Catholic Church because Christ PERSONALLY identifies with His Church. Go back and read the scripture verses I gave before: “Saul Saul Why Do you Persecute ME”. It’s blatant that anyone who attacks Christ Church is personally grieving The Lord. Just admit it Lueamma - you have a double standard and don’t believe that Catholics are Christians and are not part of the Body of Christ and are not saved. Come on Luemma - stop beating around the bush and defend your faith and be honest about it.

My posts are long since you say so many wrong things and I have to be careful to address them all. There are many nuances so I put a lot of careful thought into what I write so you have the benefit of everything I can tell you to help you.

You ignore what I say because you have NO answers to what I have to say. You can not defend your beliefs.against the truth that I present to you. I am not at all interested in wining arugments but rather seeing you get the full teachings so you will be able to attain your highest and best purpose that God is calling you to and not be at risk of losing your salvation. It is inconsiderate to ignore and not respond to what I say after I put so much careful thought and time into trying to help you. You must be able to defend your faith and test it.

I in no way said that Christ limits the offer of salvation to only Catholics. Christ offers salvation to all people. But the Catholic Church is the embodiment if His Church.

That’s the problem you Catholics don’t want to share Jesus so you claim him as yours only and if you want him,become Catholic.Do you see just how stupid this really sounds to someone who knows him?

Hoboy - I don’t know what to say to this one. Let me say that Catholics would be more than happy if everyone in the world “Came to Jesus”. The problem Louemma is that you want to have some of what Jesus said but not ALL of what Jesus said. Jesus is LORD - over all His true believers and also over all His enemies. Catholics can’t deny His Lordship. What we want is for you to be sure that you are His friend since He told us “not all who call me Lord Lord will enter my kingdom”.

Do you see how stupid it sounds to claim you know and love Jesus but scorn his body and his bride - the Catholic Church? Do you really think Jesus is going to go for that?

Do you deny that Catholics have faith in Jesus? If as you believe faith is all we need why are not Catholics saved if they have faith? Do our charitable works invalidate our faith? Says who? That’s a nutty idea.

Jesus is the only way to salvation and Jesus is not the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church is not Jesus.

So you say and so you persecute Jesus again. The Catholic Church can trace its origins all the way back to the apostles. There is no question that the Catholic Church is the same faith as as the early church - we have all of history and the early church father writings on our side as well as all the same handed down traditions. You have nothing other than Louemma’s own private ideas.

Go back and re-read that verse “Saul Saul why do you persecute ME?”. Read it a thousand times real slow if you must. Jesus makes NO differentiation between himself in the person and His Church. It’s 100% scriptural Louemma.

You need to start offering real scripture and history and less personal opinion. There are about 12 billion souls in the planet and almost no one will care to listen to your personal opinion over the other billions of personal opinion.

James

 

[Louemma]

But you are persecuting Christ when you malign the Catholic Church because Christ PERSONALLY identifies with His Church. Go back and read the scripture verses I gave before: “Saul Saul Why Do you Persecute ME”. It’s blatant that anyone who attacks Christ Church is personally grieving The Lord. Just admit it Lueamma - you have a double standard and don’t believe that Catholics are Christians and are not part of the Body of Christ and are not saved. Come on Luemma - stop beating around the bush and defend your faith and be honest about it.

You ignore what I say because you have NO answers to what I have to say. You can not defend your beliefs.against the truth that I present to you. I am not at all interested in wining arugments but rather seeing you get the full teachings so you will be able to attain your highest and best purpose that God is calling you to and not be at risk of losing your salvation. It is inconsiderate to ignore and not respond to what I say after I put so much careful thought and time into trying to help you. You must be able to defend your faith and test it.

Hoboy - I don’t know what to say to this one. Let me say that Catholics would be more than happy if everyone in the world “Came to Jesus”. The problem Louemma is that you want to have some of what Jesus said but not ALL of what Jesus said. Jesus is LORD - over all His true believers and also over all His enemies. Catholics can’t deny His Lordship. What we want is for you to be sure that you are His friend since He told us “not all who call me Lord Lord will enter my kingdom”.

Do you see how stupid it sounds to claim you know and love Jesus but scorn his body and his bride - the Catholic Church? Do you really think Jesus is going to go for that?

Do you deny that Catholics have faith in Jesus? If as you believe faith is all we need why are not Catholics saved if they have faith? Do our charitable works invalidate our faith? Says who? That’s a nutty idea.

So you say and so you persecute Jesus again. The Catholic Church can trace its origins all the way back to the apostles. There is no question that the Catholic Church is the same faith as as the early church - we have all of history and the early church father writings on our side as well as all the same handed down traditions. You have nothing other than Louemma’s own private ideas.

Go back and re-read that verse “Saul Saul why do you persecute ME?”. Read it a thousand times real slow if you must. Jesus makes NO differentiation between himself in the person and His Church. It’s 100% scriptural Louemma.

You need to start offering real scripture and history and less personal opinion. There are about 12 billion souls in the planet and almost no one will care to listen to your personal opinion over the other billions of personal opinion.

James

No James I did not say Catholics were not saved,and you claim that I can not defend my faith against what you are claiming as truth.No where in scripture did Jesus state that the one true church is the catholic church and no where in scripture does it state that in order to have salvation one must be a part of the Catholic church.This is a man made tradition,much like the pharisees religion.They claimed to know the true God and just how to worship him but yet they had him crucified because they worshiped the religion and did not recognize God when he was among them.
You are not reading all my post when you say I should offer scripture.I have posted scripture throughout every post I have made.Perhaps you don’t know the scriptures as well as you think.
Here is one scripture that I have posted several times that you seem to over look and that scripture is “The only way to the Father is through the son” or I am the way the truth and the life,no one comes to the father except by me.
Now if you care to explain by what authority the Catholics can say they are the body of Christ because according to Jesus the body of Christ are those who are born again by the Spirit.If only Catholics can receive true salvation then are you claiming the Holy Spirit is promised only to those who practice a certain belief or is the Holy Spirit promised to all that are saved by the blood of the Lamb?
btw/ there is scripture all through this post as with my other post and surly someone who claims to know scripture may not recognize it unless it’s booked and marked
The problem here is calling the Catholic church the body of Christ.This is a false doctrine at it’s worst.The body of Christ are those who are born again and have the Holy Spirit(Jesus’s spirit) indwelling in the hearts of the believer.These are the children of God who make up the body of Christ,the ones who are born of the Spirit.The Catholic church is not the body of Christ and this is my argument.People are being led to believe that as long as they are a part of the Catholic church they are a part of the body of Christ and these same folks believe that the church can save them and this is a lie straight out of hades and this false teaching is going to send alot of people to Hades.
John 3:5 Jesus answered,Verily,verily I say unto thee,Except a man be born of water and Spirit,he can not enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee,ye must be born again.

Catholic church can not give anyone salvation,only the son of God can do that,in fact he has already done that by way of the cross.The Holy Spirit indwells a believer giving life to the spirit which is in man.The Catholic church can not do this and we noted one poster thinks the Catholic church can save people because the Catholic church has named itself the body of Christ.Do you not see a problem with this?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

sigh I had this beautiful post just about ready to submit when my computer decided to spontaneously reboot.

To answer your OP, Catholics don’t believe that we just pray and accept Christ “once” to be saved. As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13). (From this article)

Louemma, I keep reading your posts where you separate Christ from His Body, the Church, and you insist that the Catholic Church is not the one which was founded by Christ. Do you have some evidence pointing to another Church founded at the time of Christ that is still in existence today? If you can prove to me that Christ didn’t found the Catholic Church but rather founded another one that still exists today, I’ll join it.

Here’s what I’ve found in my studies, though:

Did Jesus establish more than one church…NO!
~ Matthew 16:18 uses the singular form of “church”
~ John 10:16 says "one flock” - not 25,000+
~ Ephesians 1:22-23, Colossians 1:18, 24; Ephesians 4:4 all say that the Church is the “body” of Christ.

Did Jesus establish an invisible, abstract, spiritual church in which all believers, regardless of denomination, are members…NO!
~ John 17:20-23
~ Matthew 5:14
~ Matthew 18:15-17
“Tell it to the church” - which church would that be?

 

[Pax]

Louemma in Christ,

I wouldn’t mind a direct response to the points made in my posts. I realize that you’re responding to many people on this thread, but if you get a chance to respond I would be grateful.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

…
…
To limit Christ as only offering salvation if your in the Catholic belief is arrogant.To believe that Jesus is the Catholic church is a gross misrepresentation of the gospel,the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
That’s the problem you Catholics don’t want to share Jesus so you claim him as yours only and if you want him,become Catholic.Do you see just how stupid this really sounds to someone who knows him?
Jesus is the only way to salvation and Jesus is not the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church is not Jesus.

Louemma in Christ,

Christians all claim that salvation is through Jesus alone. I’m sure that you believe that too based upon the remarks in your posts.

How arrogant does that sound to a non-Christian? Do you see just how stupid that sounds to someone that knows Allah and is a prayerful and sincere Muslim?

The claim that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ is a true statement. If that statement appears arrogant to you, then you must also find yourself guilty of arrogance in claiming any form of superiority for your Christian beliefs versus all non-Christian religions.

Statements of truth, however unpleasant they may sound to someone that disagrees with them, are not arrogant. We challenge you to use history, scripture, logic, and prayer to test the truth of the claim. We have already done it for ourselves, and find the evidence overwhelming and convincing that the Catholic Church is, indeed, the Church established by Jesus. Moreover, the evidence shows that all others are but splinters from the Catholic Church and that they do not retain the fullness of Christian truth.

God bless.

 

[Louemma]

Louemma in Christ,

Christians all claim that salvation is through Jesus alone. I’m sure that you believe that too based upon the remarks in your posts.

How arrogant does that sound to a non-Christian? Do you see just how stupid that sounds to someone that knows Allah and is a prayerful and sincere Muslim?

The claim that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ is a true statement. If that statement appears arrogant to you, then you must also find yourself guilty of arrogance in claiming any form of superiority for your Christian beliefs versus all non-Christian religions.

Statements of truth, however unpleasant they may sound to someone that disagrees with them, are not arrogant. We challenge you to use history, scripture, logic, and prayer to test the truth of the claim. We have already done it for ourselves, and find the evidence overwhelming and convincing that the Catholic Church is, indeed, the Church established by Jesus. Moreover, the evidence shows that all others are but splinters from the Catholic Church and that they do not retain the fullness of Christian truth.

God bless.

I tell you what I find disturbing is that there are some Catholics who believe the church can save them.Also that some Catholics don’t believe that a non Catholic can have salvation.Both of these beliefs is not true.The church can’t save people and there are people that are not Catholic who have salvation.
To clear up a matter that i read from another post,I do not believe that a person can say I’m saved and let it go at that.That is not what I believe.Our walk with the Lord is a daily walk and not just words but in deeds also.
I’m having a problem with believing that the body of Christ is the catholic church because according to God’s word the body of Christ are those who are born of his Spirit.
I find it arrogant for some who believe that salvation is for the Catholics only.I find it awful for those who believe the church can save them.
That is what I can not see is how a person thinks that they have salvation and believe the church can save them and do you know why they believe this?Because they are told that they are a part of the body of Christ because they are told the Catholic church is the body of Christ.Now these same people who believe the church has saved them could be as lost as a snow flake in a blizzard.
That’s what I’m saying…

 

[Pax]

I tell you what I find disturbing is that there are some Catholics who believe the church can save them.Also that some Catholics don’t believe that a non Catholic can have salvation.Both of these beliefs is not true.The church can’t save people and there are people that are not Catholic who have salvation.
To clear up a matter that i read from another post,I do not believe that a person can say I’m saved and let it go at that.That is not what I believe.Our walk with the Lord is a daily walk and not just words but in deeds also.
I’m having a problem with believing that the body of Christ is the catholic church because according to God’s word the body of Christ are those who are born of his Spirit.
I find it arrogant for some who believe that salvation is for the Catholics only.I find it awful for those who believe the church can save them.
That is what I can not see is how a person thinks that they have salvation and believe the church can save them and do you know why they believe this?Because they are told that they are a part of the body of Christ because they are told the Catholic church is the body of Christ.Now these same people who believe the church has saved them could be as lost as a snow flake in a blizzard.
That’s what I’m saying…

Louemma in Christ,

It really doesn’t matter much if you have found some Catholics that do not properly articulate what it means to be Catholic. I’m sure that you have found non-Catholic Christians that have similar difficulties properly articulating their faith tradition. Likewise, we can easily find Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, and others that do not properly articulate their faith.

The important thing is what the Catholic Church actually teaches and why. The Catholic Church can back up every claim and teaching even if some of the members either misrepresent them or poorly articulate them. Stick around and ask your questions. We’ll do the best we can to help in your exploration.

God bless.