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brb2
Guest
People are unique, no two believe EXACTLY the same thing.
Christ taught … the sheep are mixed amid the tares. Both grow together … and Christ [and his Angels] will separate them on the last day. So, don’t be looking to find someone here [or in your current church] that is a carbon copy of U-self. Look to Christ, immitate Christ … and you will find his True Church here on earth. His Church will help you in your journey in this life … and aid you in perseverance.
The mission of the Church is multifaceted. It will exhibit ALL the components of the faithful that Paul speaks of [gifts of the Spirit]. But, it is also headed by Christ, with Peter [and his successors] … at his right hand. Christ leads thru his Apostles and all subsequent successors who stand upon their shoulders. The City of God, growing in height with every subsequent generation. The tree of life, growing ever taller and wider. But, also pruned by God … to ensure its viability and ultimate eternal victory.
When some posters here upset you … don’t ignore them. Call them out, in a Christian way yes ! Ask them to clarify their comments. Test what they say … and God will apply any merit of their comments to your life – as he desires for you. No one here understands all w/o error. So, we all need Christian mentors to hone our understanding.
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sambos671
Guest
Can you loose your salvation by as simple a thing as not attending Mass on Marian venerations days?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
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CentralFLJames
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Louemma I did not answer this right away since I wanted to give you a rest and the time necessary to answer other Catholics here who are trying to help you understand Catholic teaching. Let me now answer this as best I can given the limited time and text space I have access to.
There are so many errors in your views that I am not sure how best to respond to you since I don’t have the time or space to address them all.
First of all you are assuming that scripture contains all that Jesus ever taught or said. But scripture itself refutes this invalid idea (see here: Scripture Refutes “By Scripture Alone”). Here is a quick single line proof: John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Fortunately Scripture does tell us where the other things are that Jesus did and said:*
2 Thes 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth OR by letter.*
Sacred Tradition.
This is your basic difficulty Louemma - you don’t have all the facts necessary for salvation since you do not have Sacred Tradition to guide you as the early Christians did and as the Catholic Church does.
Now we need to convince you that the Catholic Church was conceived by God to be the only way to attain salvation. The only way I can do this is to point you to what the early Church all originally believed and practiced. There is scriptural support for it but it will probably not be explicit enough for your fundamentalist view. So look to the actual early church histories of what the early Church Fathers wrote - which we have today in a large library of writings which captured the early traditions. More here: The Church
Additionally you are asserting personal opinion when you say that the ‘Catholic Church is a man made tradition,much like the pharisees religion.’ As well you draw completely unjust comparisons to the Pharisees. In so doing you also expose your lack of insight into what Jesus really taught about tradition. Jesus did NOT condemn all tradition - only those new traditions that were crafted by corrupt men who used them to further their own selfish desires. But Jesus himself highly regarded the valid traditions. For example He permit himself to be circumcised. He honored the pascal traditions (if in doubt look to the last supper accounts itself). He (and the apostles) all read scripture and prayed in the temple in addition to their private prayer. He fasted etc. etc. etc.
If we follow your specious line of reasoning then none of us should read our bibles because Jesus did not do that nor did the apostles. Altar calls, Wednesday bible study and revival tent evangelizing are all new secular christian traditions but I bet you practise all these things. By your own standard of judgement that makes you like a pharisee and talking out of both sides of your mouth. By the way, not ALL the pharisees were bad either. Many of them were quite good men and upright in every way. Further we have the one verse in scripture that can not be denied by any spin of words or sleigh of hand that tells us definitively that Jesus intended one single Church:
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Notice it does not say My Churches (plural). There was always only a single CHURCH in all of Christendom until various break away schisms and the Protestant heresy tried to call themselves their own church.
No other church on the planet but the Roman Catholic Church claims the apostolic succession of the office of Peter as Vicar. Not even the Orthodox who are very close to Catholic make this claim - they only hold to the apostolic succession of bishops (which by the way we recognize as legitimate).
Here is the one scripture verse that agrees with this but you keep ignoring:
Acts 9:4 "Saul, Saul why do you persecute ME."
Jesus makes NO distinction between Himself and His Church. How could He when it is His Body?
[continued]
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
[from prior]
The proof that salvation belongs to those who practise in a certain belief is very simple:
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Those who follow a different way from a different faith are not obeying Christ and though they call Him Lord Lord will not be saved unless they obey Christ. Christ told us that those who do not do the will of the Father will be cut off and perish. Protestantism has removed itself from the flock and is disobedient to the apostolic teaching. How many of these who say Lord Lord but do not do what He commanded will perish in hell?
The Holy Spirit is promised to all who are baptised Christians. But the Holy Spirit will remove himself from the person who is disobedient and sins gravely and will not return unless that person repents AND is forgiven. To repent one must remedy the defect - which would be returning to the Catholic Church if they know in their hearts that it is the only true faith.
The Church CAN and DOES save souls simply because the Church’s head is Christ and He operates through the instrument of His Church. Examine the informational links about the church I gave you and see that Church does see itself as the Body of Christ. Do you think that your bible can save you Louemma? Do you think that your intellect can save you?
The description of the Church as “Body of Christ” is ancient. Sometimes we also call it the Bride of Christ - depending on the spiritual metaphor that works best for the thing we are talking about. It is both of these things (like in marriage the two shall be one flesh). I don’t have the time or space to give you the complete etymology of the term “Body of Christ” to show you how Catholics come to this expression but I can give you a part of it and links to other readings.
To fulfill his Messianic mission, Jesus Christ took on a human body from his Mother. He lived a natural life in that body. He redeemed the world through that body and no other means. Since his Ascension and until the end of history, Jesus lives on earth in his supernatural body, the body of his members, his mystical body. Having used his physical body to redeem the world, Christ now uses his mystical body to dispense “the divine fruits of the Redemption” (Mystici Corporis 31).
Don’t be too quick to judge since you really do not know enough of scripture nor the early Church history or traditions to judge. Try to research some of what I have given you.
James
EVERY Catholic is born of water and spirit in baptism. That incorporates us into the body of Christ. You keep inventing new phrases “True Salvation”. There is no such phrase in the bible - one is “saved” or “not saved”, Who judges your system of “truely saved”?
The proof that salvation belongs to those who practise in a certain belief is very simple:
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Those who follow a different way from a different faith are not obeying Christ and though they call Him Lord Lord will not be saved unless they obey Christ. Christ told us that those who do not do the will of the Father will be cut off and perish. Protestantism has removed itself from the flock and is disobedient to the apostolic teaching. How many of these who say Lord Lord but do not do what He commanded will perish in hell?
The Holy Spirit is promised to all who are baptised Christians. But the Holy Spirit will remove himself from the person who is disobedient and sins gravely and will not return unless that person repents AND is forgiven. To repent one must remedy the defect - which would be returning to the Catholic Church if they know in their hearts that it is the only true faith.
You are on thin ice here Louemma and in danger of condeming yourself as well as getting yourself banned here at CAF for the evil things you have said here about Catholics. You pretend to have knowledge of scripture but repeatedly show this not to be the case since you contradict other scripture verses. Could it be Louemma you are not qualified to be the judge of the Catholic Church? Did Christ call you to judge and condemn Catholics?
The Church CAN and DOES save souls simply because the Church’s head is Christ and He operates through the instrument of His Church. Examine the informational links about the church I gave you and see that Church does see itself as the Body of Christ. Do you think that your bible can save you Louemma? Do you think that your intellect can save you?
You are trying to limit God’s power in saying He can not use the Catholic Church to bring salvation to Christians. Did not God tell Noah to build an arc to save his family from the deluge? The Church is a type of ARC Louemma - if you are not on-board you will not make it to the promised land and “be left behind” to drown.
The description of the Church as “Body of Christ” is ancient. Sometimes we also call it the Bride of Christ - depending on the spiritual metaphor that works best for the thing we are talking about. It is both of these things (like in marriage the two shall be one flesh). I don’t have the time or space to give you the complete etymology of the term “Body of Christ” to show you how Catholics come to this expression but I can give you a part of it and links to other readings.
To fulfill his Messianic mission, Jesus Christ took on a human body from his Mother. He lived a natural life in that body. He redeemed the world through that body and no other means. Since his Ascension and until the end of history, Jesus lives on earth in his supernatural body, the body of his members, his mystical body. Having used his physical body to redeem the world, Christ now uses his mystical body to dispense “the divine fruits of the Redemption” (Mystici Corporis 31).
Don’t be too quick to judge since you really do not know enough of scripture nor the early Church history or traditions to judge. Try to research some of what I have given you.
James
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Tomster
Guest
Louemma,
The Church is more than a religious society whose purpose is the worship of God, more than a society different from all others because it was founded by God, more than a depository of grace and revealed truth. The Church herself is supernatural in her nature and essence, since she is the Body of Christ, living with the life of Christ himself, with a supernatural life. From the “fullness of Christ” (Collosians 2:9ff) all his members are filled, so that the Church herself is “the fullness of him who is wholly fulfilled in all.” (Ephesians 1:23) Hence the mystery of the Church is the very mystery of Christ himself.
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Tomster
Guest
Louemma,
Our act of faith in the great mystery of Christ’s Church means far more than belief in a wonderful worldwide organization of millions of men and women, united as no other group of men and women has ever been in belief, in practice, and in central government; it means that there circulates throughout the Church the life of grace which Christ came to bring into the world, linking together the members of the Church under Christ their Head with such a closeness of union that Head and members form a unique reality: the Mystical Body of Christ. Our act of faith in the Church is an act of faith in Christ ever active in our midst, ever speaking, ever teaching, ever guiding, ever sanctifying those who are one with him, through the organism he has willed should exist in the world.
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Louemma
Guest
James you keep asking me about Acts 9:4 and I’ve already answered you on this.You see the Catholic church as Christ and I see Christ as Jesus.So if you’ve drawn up in your head that I’m persecuting Christ your mistaken because at this point in my thinking I do not see the Catholic Church as the body of Christ.After all years of believing a certain way and hearing something new tends to make one question.We are told to test everything so I"m confident in knowing that I am lining up with what a Christian should do so they will not be deceived.
I do not see the church as Jesus"s body.Jesus ascended into heaven.Jesus set the church up by his word and by his spirit.
Here’s question so I can discern the Catholic belief for a better understanding…
If Christ Is The Body,Then Who Is The Head?
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Tomster
Guest
Louemma,
It is in and through the Church that Jesus Christ has willed to effect the salvation of mankind. From the beginning that Church has been a complex entity, and its history is filled with incidents in which men have concentrated upon some one essential element of its constitution to the exclusion of of another equally essential element, and have drifted into heresy. The Church has its visible and its invisible elements, its individual and its social claims, it natural and its supernatural activities, its adaptability to the needs of the times, while it is uncompromising in vindicating, even unto blood, that which it holds from Christ and for Christ.
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Louemma
Guest
I do appreciate you trying to help me understand how the Catholic Church could be the body of Christ.Then if this is true what about all the other Christians that have salvation that are not Catholic?Are they not a part of the body of Christ also?Did Jesus not die for them as well?
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Tomster
Guest
Louemma,James you keep asking me about Acts 9:4 and I’ve already answered you on this.You see the Catholic church as Christ and I see Christ as Jesus.So if you’ve drawn up in your head that I’m persecuting Christ your mistaken because at this point in my thinking I do not see the Catholic Church as the body of Christ.After all years of believing a certain way and hearing something new tends to make one question.We are told to test everything so I"m confident in knowing that I am lining up with what a Christian should do so they will not be deceived.
I do not see the church as Jesus"s body.Jesus ascended into heaven.Jesus set the church up by his word and by his spirit.
Here’s question so I can discern the Catholic belief for a better understanding…
If Christ Is The Body,Then Who Is The Head?
You might want to take a look at these Scripture references:
For starters -
Matthew 13:24ff
Matthew 13:47
John 4:23
Phillipians 3:6
Galatians 1:13
1 Corinthians 15:9
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Louemma
Guest
Ok, from reading your responding post I will say that I have said nothing evil and you have no power to condemn me,nor will I be condemned for speaking what I see as truth.You are on my ignore list because my fruits of the Spirit disappear on me every time I read one of your ole hateful post
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Tomster
Guest
Louemma,
All Christians, who are not Catholic, but who have been validly baptised, are united to the Mystical Body of Christ in a ceratin way.
Not to demean you or like believers in any way, the Christian Community you may be associated with has not given you the fullness of truth. I do not doubt for one moment your love and zeal for Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It’s just that the Catholic Church can trace her lineage to Pentecost and Jesus instituted only one Church.
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Louemma
Guest
Thank you for the scripture,now John 4:23 is one of my favorites.To worship God in spirit and in Truth.This don’t put the catholic church as the body of Christ.To me this is for those who worship God with the Spirit that God gives to each believer,that being the spirit of Truth.
The rest I will look up
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Tomster
Guest
When reading them, please take them all in context with each other.Thank you for the scripture,now John 4:23 is one of my favorites.To worship God in spirit and in Truth.This don’t put the catholic church as the body of Christ.To me this is for those who worship God with the Spirit that God gives to each believer,that being the spirit of Truth.
The rest I will look up
There are many more Scripture references I could share with you regarding the nature of the Church. The list I gave to you was just a start to help you understand The Mystical Body of Christ.
(Don’t write James off, he’s a good guy!
)
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Louemma
Guest
Don’t the Catholics baptise from the cradle?So by doing this to a child with no understanding of whom they are receiving salvation from can obtain salvation by the baptising into the Catholic Church?
I really don’t trace any lineage until I am sure that I have the right line because to do so I have discovered what seems to be right can often be wrong
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Louemma
Guest
Also this is off topic but I read up on THE REAL PRESENCE and I agree.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
So Louemma, after I took about 2 hrs out of my day to try to help you, you take the cowards way out and “ignore/block” me so you don’t have to read the truth? Simply because you are too lazy to read what I have given you; and because you can’t rationally contradict anything I have said; and because I warned you that you were in violation of forum rules (so you would not get in trouble); and because you are obstinate in your desire to slander the Catholic Church and to remain in the dark on true apostolic teaching??? You are showing your colors Louemma. You are unjust in these actions.Ok, from reading your responding post I will say that I have said nothing evil and you have no power to condemn me,nor will I be condemned for speaking what I see as truth.You are on my ignore list because my fruits of the Spirit disappear on me every time I read one of your ole hateful post
You have no idea how disappointed I am in this Louemma. Some other poster that Louemma has not blocked please echo this post so she has to see; Simply quote me in a null reply so she can’t claim she has not seen it. It is profoundly unjust and cowardly to turn her back on the truth and run away from answers she asked then block me just for giving her those answers. Louemma the Holy Spirit does not produce fruits of error and any discomfort you have in my reply (which was entirely charitable) is only proving that you are not yet in possession of the mature fruits of the Holy Spirit. It’s time to grow up and stop wasting everyone’s time. We are not here for you to try to mock Catholic belief and give you a soapbox for evangelising.
By the way here is your exact quote where you slandered our faith:
Given your obstinancy and uncharitable conduct and rejection of my warning I am now inclined to report you for a violation of forum rules and your anti-Catholic rhetoric.
I no longer think you are sincere nor here to learn.
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Thank God that adults who have the minds of children due to being mentally handicapped or mentally ill have a place in salvation too and can be baptised just like children can.Don’t the Catholics baptise from the cradle?So by doing this to a child with no understanding of whom they are receiving salvation from can obtain salvation by the baptising into the Catholic Church?
I really don’t trace any lineage until I am sure that I have the right line because to do so I have discovered what seems to be right can often be wrong
Jesus said “BRING THE CHILDREN TO ME”.
James
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