Losing Salvation

[Pixie_Dust]

Don’t the Catholics baptise from the cradle?So by doing this to a child with no understanding of whom they are receiving salvation from can obtain salvation by the baptising into the Catholic Church?

Yes, just as the Israelites circumcised their 8-day-old boys to bring them into the Covenant, even though the infant had no understanding of the Covenant. Baptism is the new circumcision, according to the New Testament. Baptism is the beginning of salvation, the child’s parents are expected to raise them to love and serve the Lord.

I really don’t trace any lineage until I am sure that I have the right line because to do so I have discovered what seems to be right can often be wrong

I understand. It’s always best to start at the beginning - in the case of the Church, we’d begin at Pentecost. Begin with the Apostles, see who they ordained as ministers and bishops to replace them when they were called home to Heaven. Those men then ordained other men to lead the Church after them, and so on for close to 2000 years. Don’t you think that the original Apostles, the ones upon whom our Lord breathed and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth,” would remember what Jesus taught them and, empowered by that Spirit, be able to pass those precise teachings on to others?

That’s how you know when you’ve found the Truth. Does it line up with what we read in Scripture and ALSO what the Church Fathers in the post-apostolic period were teaching as they’d learned at the feet of the Apostles? Is it still being taught somewhere today? Where?

Every pastor of every denomination (and non-denomination which is really a denomination unto itself) claims to be led by the Holy Spirit, yet they often arrive at contradictory and conflicting conclusions about what Scripture teaches concerning some MAJOR points of doctrine. How do you discern who’s really being led by the Spirit and who is in error? Jesus prayed that we would be ONE, as He and the Father are ONE. We will not be one until denominational barriers are torn down and people come home to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the only one truly founded by God and not by man.

 

[Louemma]

Yes, just as the Israelites circumcised their 8-day-old boys to bring them into the Covenant, even though the infant had no understanding of the Covenant. Baptism is the new circumcision, according to the New Testament. Baptism is the beginning of salvation, the child’s parents are expected to raise them to love and serve the Lord.

I understand. It’s always best to start at the beginning - in the case of the Church, we’d begin at Pentecost. Begin with the Apostles, see who they ordained as ministers and bishops to replace them when they were called home to Heaven. Those men then ordained other men to lead the Church after them, and so on for close to 2000 years. Don’t you think that the original Apostles, the ones upon whom our Lord breathed and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth,” would remember what Jesus taught them and, empowered by that Spirit, be able to pass those precise teachings on to others?

That’s how you know when you’ve found the Truth. Does it line up with what we read in Scripture and ALSO what the Church Fathers in the post-apostolic period were teaching as they’d learned at the feet of the Apostles? Is it still being taught somewhere today? Where?

Every pastor of every denomination (and non-denomination which is really a denomination unto itself) claims to be led by the Holy Spirit, yet they often arrive at contradictory and conflicting conclusions about what Scripture teaches concerning some MAJOR points of doctrine. How do you discern who’s really being led by the Spirit and who is in error? Jesus prayed that we would be ONE, as He and the Father are ONE. We will not be one until denominational barriers are torn down and people come home to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the only one truly founded by God and not by man.

I suppose I understand what your saying.The thing is Protestants are taught to believe that by faith we receive salvation through Christ.Same as we are taught to go solely on the word of God.Now most Protestants will tell you that the Body of Christ are those who have salvation through Jesus and most Protestants will tell you that the Catholic church is not the body of Christ.
However I am determined to stick around and keep asking questions because I agree on a few points of the Catholic belief.Also from my research I have discovered that the way to obtain salvation through Christ has been a long standing dispute between the Protestants and Catholics and this matter deserves to be looked.
Some Catholics here do not understand the Protestant beliefs and take a personal insult when the Protestant defends their beliefs but at the same time this Protestant don’t believe completely like a Protestant.
I appreciate your post.

 

[Masters_Servant]

No, because this idea is not found in Sacred Scripture or in Sacred Tradition; it is a “tradition of Protestant men.”

Why is OSAS all over Scripture? When one becomes a new creation in Christ; he puts on the new man and off with the old. Jesus also said that all that the Father gives Him cannot be taken away. And Paul in Romans 8 gives a nice long list of those things which cannot separate the Christian from the love of God. The Bible also teaches a Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise till the day of the Lord.

It is interesting to note that Catholics believe they can lose their salvation by mortal sin and/or deciding to give back the transformed life in Christ. Is there a catechism or dogma or anything official that demonstrates this teaching. Who decided in categorizing sin? That is also foreign to me; I don’t think it is in Scripture so I assume this is also of the Catholic doctrine and if you care to share the links I would be thankful.

 

[Masters_Servant]

The scriptures tell us that if a person becomes lukewarm,Jesus will spew him out.So yes I believe a person can lose their salvation and as one poster pointed out that questioning the salvation to begin with is an endless argument because God is the only one who can search the heart.
Now there are some who believe that their salvation can be secured in doing certain works,confession,and what have you.Now if the outward man shows all the makings of a true child of God but the inward man can be rotten to the core and of course God searches the heart.Now in having said this that we know there are some who become conceited in and by their works,failing to give the glory and honor to the son and to the Father but rather giving the honor and the glory to another.We know in Revelation that there are some who have left their first love,which is Jesus.We know Jesus made eternal life(salvation) possible because by his stripes we are healed.There is only one way to receiving salvation and that is through Jesus Christ and him alone is the only way a person can get to heaven,not by mights and not by works and to become the body of Christ is to be indwelled by his Holy Spirit.The children who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit are the children who make up the body of Christ and this is the true church,those who do the will of the Father and not the traditions of man.
Now in having said this there is only one Father,One Son and The Holy Spirit,which is the Spirit of Jesus.There is only one Father that is Holy.
I don’t post this to argue.
I have enjoyed this forum but I fear the Catholic Church started great as Jesus stated to Peter"Upon this Rock,I build my Church" now I pray you are not in the Church who has left their first love,which is Jesus Christ.The church can not offer salvation and works don’t keep salvation,Salvation is for all that Love Jesus and trust in him.The body of Christ are those who have the Spirit of Jesus(The Holy Spirit) in their hearts and this is the body of Christ.
May God bless You

If you know the Scripture teaches this, then why do you leave out the “security of the believer” and say one can lose their salvation and that one cannot know their salvation? 1 John 5 was written so that a Christian will know; so how do you explain 1 John 5 among a multitude of other passages? This is very interesting perspective and I hope to learn from this.

 

[davidv]

So Louemma, after I took about 2 hrs out of my day to try to help you, you take the cowards way out and “ignore/block” me so you don’t have to read the truth? Simply because you are too lazy to read what I have given you; and because you can’t rationally contradict anything I have said; and because I warned you that you were in violation of forum rules (so you would not get in trouble); and because you are obstinate in your desire to slander the Catholic Church and to remain in the dark on true apostolic teaching??? You are showing your colors Louemma. You are unjust in these actions.

You have no idea how disappointed I am in this Louemma. Some other poster that Louemma has not blocked please echo this post so she has to see; Simply quote me in a null reply so she can’t claim she has not seen it. It is profoundly unjust and cowardly to turn her back on the truth and run away from answers she asked then block me just for giving her those answers. Louemma the Holy Spirit does not produce fruits of error and any discomfort you have in my reply (which was entirely charitable) is only proving that you are not yet in possession of the mature fruits of the Holy Spirit. It’s time to grow up and stop wasting everyone’s time. We are not here for you to try to mock Catholic belief and give you a soapbox for evangelising.

By the way here is your exact quote where you slandered our faith:

Given your obstinancy and uncharitable conduct and rejection of my warning I am now inclined to report you for a violation of forum rules and your anti-Catholic rhetoric.

I no longer think you are sincere nor here to learn.

James

 

[brb2]

CFJ …

Don’t you dare report her !

Calm =================down================================================================

 

[Masters_Servant]

Yes, just as the Israelites circumcised their 8-day-old boys to bring them into the Covenant, even though the infant had no understanding of the Covenant. Baptism is the new circumcision, according to the New Testament. Baptism is the beginning of salvation, the child’s parents are expected to raise them to love and serve the Lord.

What happened to all the poor women that were unable to be circumcised?

I understand. It’s always best to start at the beginning - in the case of the Church, we’d begin at Pentecost. Begin with the Apostles, see who they ordained as ministers and bishops to replace them when they were called home to Heaven. Those men then ordained other men to lead the Church after them, and so on for close to 2000 years. Don’t you think that the original Apostles, the ones upon whom our Lord breathed and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth,” would remember what Jesus taught them and, empowered by that Spirit, be able to pass those precise teachings on to others?

Did you know that Scripture teaches us that some of the men the Apostles laid hands on were apostates? I believe this was God’s way of letting men know who are the truly ordained, which is by God as Acts 1 demonstrates and that the formalities of laying hands is just that a formality, but a necessary one since it is taught. I also found out that the Catholic church forced ordination on people; I was reading Augustine earlier today and was shocked. I’m certain this practice is no longer in effect in the modern Catholic church.

That’s how you know when you’ve found the Truth. Does it line up with what we read in Scripture and ALSO what the Church Fathers in the post-apostolic period were teaching as they’d learned at the feet of the Apostles? Is it still being taught somewhere today? Where?

Every pastor of every denomination (and non-denomination which is really a denomination unto itself) claims to be led by the Holy Spirit, yet they often arrive at contradictory and conflicting conclusions about what Scripture teaches concerning some MAJOR points of doctrine. How do you discern who’s really being led by the Spirit and who is in error? Jesus prayed that we would be ONE, as He and the Father are ONE. We will not be one until denominational barriers are torn down and people come home to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the only one truly founded by God and not by man.

On the last paragraph that will never happen unless doctrine is tossed aside in favor of being physically united as one. Christians are united as one in the worshipers He desires, which is in spirit and truth. While on earth, there will always be the wheat among the tares and the rocky and thorny soils. The unity Jesus speaks of not only exists but is growing, but it is the unity in the spiritual and true dimension, not the earthly one. I am wondering if what you stated is Catholic doctrine on the earthly unity or if it was an opinion you were expressing. This is something else that is new to me as far as a true visible unity. I know the visible church’s are all around, but I also know that everyone going to church are not going to heaven.

 

[Louemma]

If you know the Scripture teaches this, then why do you leave out the “security of the believer” and say one can lose their salvation and that one cannot know their salvation? 1 John 5 was written so that a Christian will know; so how do you explain 1 John 5 among a multitude of other passages? This is very interesting perspective and I hope to learn from this.

Because I don’t believe once saved always saved,but I also believe if someone claims that they use to be saved were never saved at all.If someone has true salvation then it can’t be lost because when someone meets Jesus and then turns back,that person is not fit for the kingdom of heaven.Like putting his hand to the plow and looking back
We are told in scripture to renew our minds daily and you know that in order to not let the things of this world interfere with our walk with God we must strive to do the work of the father.This is not saying works keeps our salvation but the Spirit of Christ that indwells us puts that desire there as well.
Some believe that salvation is a one time thing and then they can live like the devil and because they’re saved ,they are going to heaven.These kinds of Christians are in every Church.also the scripture tells us that each man must work out his salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Louemma]

davidv:
David your a fine catholic friend for James,but just for the record to save yourself some trouble,I still see his post so you don’t have to go quoting him unless you just like too

 

[Masters_Servant]

Because I don’t believe once saved always saved,but I also believe if someone claims that they use to be saved were never saved at all.If someone has true salvation then it can’t be lost because when someone meets Jesus and then turns back,that person is not fit for the kingdom of heaven.Like putting his hand to the plow and looking back
We are told in scripture to renew our minds daily and you know that in order to not let the things of this world interfere with our walk with God we must strive to do the work of the father.This is not saying works keeps our salvation but the Spirit of Christ that indwells us puts that desire there as well.
Some believe that salvation is a one time thing and then they can live like the devil and because they’re saved ,they are going to heaven.These kinds of Christians are in every Church.also the scripture tells us that each man must work out his salvation with fear and trembling.

Thanks for the post and explaining your position more clearly. As a side; work out your own salvation is not in the sense most believe it is, which is " here it is, now you figure it out", it is more of a physical "work out’ where we are continuing our focus on Christ always with a reverence for God so at the end of the race we have stored up much treasure in Heaven.

Again thank you and may God bless you always.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread adrift from topic and closed.