Losing your salvation?

[jimmy]

Della:

But, we have 2000 years of meditation and study of Sacred Tradition to help us while many a Protestant, has only himself or his pastor to rely on. Catholics aren’t left floundering in the dark, hoping they can get it right. We have the Magisterium to settle the important issues, while most others do not. Yes?

I agree. I am just trying to say that people are naturally biased.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

JoeyWarren:

Yes he is half right. We do have the freewill to choose Christ.

OSAS is a “Too Good to be True” doctrine.

I accept the Lord Jesus as my savior and walk with him for many years. The OSAS concept says that no matter what I do, my salvation is assured.

Well after many years I decide to go on a Killing Spree and the cops eventually kill me in the process of killing someone. According to OSAS I will still go to heaven.

Does that not strike you as odd?

Part of the OSAS belief that you need to understand is that a person is truly “Born Again”…regenerated, made new…the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in the person. This being said, a person turns away from sin, no longer “practices” sin hopwever may “fall into” sin. But the regenereated body and heart., now controlled by the Holy Spirit will have evidence of fruit of the Spirit, Peace, Love, Joy, longsuffering, goodness, gentleness, faith, temperance and meekness…not murder etc…etc.

So more or less, to understand OSAS, you would have to understand being regenerated by the Holy Spirit…in a way a fundamental non-C does.

 

[Della]

malachi_a_serva:

Part of the OSAS belief that you need to understand is that a person is truly “Born Again”…regenerated, made new…the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in the person. This being said, a person turns away from sin, no longer “practices” sin hopwever may “fall into” sin. But the regenereated body and heart., now controlled by the Holy Spirit will have evidence of fruit of the Spirit, Peace, Love, Joy, longsuffering, goodness, gentleness, faith, temperance and meekness…not murder etc…etc.

So more or less, to understand OSAS, you would have to understand being regenerated by the Holy Spirit…in a way a fundamental non-C does.

This is basic Catholic teaching, too. However, there are believers in OSAS who actually believe than one CANNOT lose one’s salvation no matter what kind of grievous sin one might commit. Surely, that isn’t right.

The Holy Spirit can withdraw from anyone who doesn’t want him there. Why else all the warnings from Jesus and the Apostles to “persevere to the end?” Regeneration doesn’t make us immune from turning our backs on God. It certainly helps us receive God’s grace, but it won’t keep people from deliberately sinning if that’s what they want to do.

 

[Contarini]

Della:

But you don’t believe that Catholics do it right. That’s a given or you would be a Catholic.

I certainly don’t think every Catholic does it right. I’m not 100% convinced that the filters applied by the officially defined dogmas of the Catholic Church are free from all error (which is what I understand the Catholic Church to claim). But I’m certainly not sure that these filters are wrong. They are more likely to be right than any others. If I were approaching Christianity from a neutral perspective (i.e., if I were a non-Christian just learning about the Christian faith and trying to find the right church in which to be baptized), I’d almost certainly become Catholic.

The whole concept of filtering Scripture more than implies bias.

Perhaps it does to you. It is, after all, a metaphor. I’m hardly going to argue with the implications you choose to see in a metaphor I didn’t even choose. Joey chose it to describe the way Protestants emphasize certain Scriptures and downplay or ignore others. Catholics unquestionably do this as well. That’s all I’m saying.

The basic question is whether there is some “neutral” way of reading Scripture without a filter. I maintain that there is not. To use the language of Thomas Kuhn (speaking of scientific revolutions), we have no access to Scripture without a paradigm. We can be converted from one paradigm to another, but we can’t compare our paradigm with the “plain meaning” of Scripture.

Edwin

 

[JoeyWarren]

Contarini:

I certainly don’t think every Catholic does it right. I’m not 100% convinced that the filters applied by the officially defined dogmas of the Catholic Church are free from all error (which is what I understand the Catholic Church to claim). But I’m certainly not sure that these filters are wrong. They are more likely to be right than any others. If I were approaching Christianity from a neutral perspective (i.e., if I were a non-Christian just learning about the Christian faith and trying to find the right church in which to be baptized), I’d almost certainly become Catholic.

Perhaps it does to you. It is, after all, a metaphor. I’m hardly going to argue with the implications you choose to see in a metaphor I didn’t even choose. Joey chose it to describe the way Protestants emphasize certain Scriptures and downplay or ignore others. Catholics unquestionably do this as well. That’s all I’m saying.

The basic question is whether there is some “neutral” way of reading Scripture without a filter. I maintain that there is not. To use the language of Thomas Kuhn (speaking of scientific revolutions), we have no access to Scripture without a paradigm. We can be converted from one paradigm to another, but we can’t compare our paradigm with the “plain meaning” of Scripture.

Edwin

Well Edwin, I will accept that argument. You did a good job there.

 

[Contarini]

JoeyWarren:

Well Edwin, I will accept that argument. You did a good job there.

Wow! I can’t believe I actually convinced someone. That almost never happens. . . .

Talk to you later,

Edwin

 

[JoeyWarren]

Contarini:

Wow! I can’t believe I actually convinced someone. That almost never happens. . . .

Talk to you later,

Edwin

Some of us do have the ability to recognize a good argument… not all is cut and dry as some would contend.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Della:

The Holy Spirit can withdraw from anyone who doesn’t want him there. Why else all the warnings from Jesus and the Apostles to “persevere to the end?” Regeneration doesn’t make us immune from turning our backs on God. It certainly helps us receive God’s grace, but it won’t keep people from deliberately sinning if that’s what they want to do.

Hi Della, perhaps here is the discrepancy in belief. If someone the was “saved” went on a killing spree…you would have OSAS advocates speak of “if he was truly saved at all”…more or less meaning obviously he really wasn’t saved. As evidenced by his actions.

So, they will all agree that only God knows, however, their “fruit” will be the icing on the cake sort of speak/proof.

Bad fruit = not saved

good fruit = saved…

Not a definate of course…but pretty much that would be the measuring stick used.

 

[Della]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi Della, perhaps here is the discrepancy in belief. If someone the was “saved” went on a killing spree…you would have OSAS advocates speak of “if he was truly saved at all”…more or less meaning obviously he really wasn’t saved. As evidenced by his actions.

So, they will all agree that only God knows, however, their “fruit” will be the icing on the cake sort of speak/proof.

Bad fruit = not saved

good fruit = saved…

Not a definate of course…but pretty much that would be the measuring stick used.

And this very idea of “fruit inspecting” is what keeps people of the OSAS persuasion always questioning their true commitment to Christ. Ironic, isn’t it?

No. It isn’t a mere matter of fruits, it is a matter of actually being right with God. We can’t pretend we are right with God in order to be truly holy. Only God can make us truly holy and that is a life-long process not a one time event to which one looks back for reassurance.