Loss and the Absurd

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To Barb, my sister in Christ,

quote: Barbara Therese
ReenyJesus tells the pharisees off for ‘multiplying laws’…we’re pretty good at this too huh…we even have to have specialist canon lawyers to interpret our laws for us…at Judgement a nun once told me the question will not be “What have you believed?” but “How have you loved?” huh?
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Amen.

Whatever courage I have is born of the desperation to
“understand” what I see…I’m finding it so peacful to
know that *Jesus *understood, when I was still in His
Father’s heart, waiting to be born into absurdity…
His gift to me? To you, as well?

It’s an odd sort of “light” to see by…absurdity. But
we can see things, by it’s light, that those who were
not born into absurdity *cannot *see, huh?
were born into absurdity,
but don’t “see” it.]

Did the Lord of the Dance [song] fit us to see that
even the Dance itself is absurd? That* He is* the Dance,
the eternal Dance…Logos = “meaning” "informing
principle?

“I am the Light that has come into the World…”
“By His light, we shall see light…”
and, thus, eternally, we will cast away the “candle”
of absurdity, by which we were able to see, and
bathe, eternally, in the Light of Lights, the Source
of all “lights.”

Reeny
 
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reen12:
To Barb, my sister in Christ,

quote: Barbara Therese

Amen.

Whatever courage I have is born of the desperation to
“understand” what I see…I’m finding it so peacful to
know that *Jesus *understood, when I was still in His
Father’s heart, waiting to be born into absurdity…
His gift to me? To you, as well?

It’s an odd sort of “light” to see by…absurdity. But
we can see things, by it’s light, that those who were
not born into absurdity *cannot *see, huh?
were born into absurdity,
but don’t “see” it.]

Did the Lord of the Dance [song] fit us to see that
even the Dance itself is absurd? That* He is* the Dance,
the eternal Dance…Logos = “meaning” "informing
principle?

“I am the Light that has come into the World…”
“By His light, we shall see light…”
and, thus, eternally, we will cast away the “candle”
of absurdity, by which we were able to see, and
bathe, eternally, in the Light of Lights, the Source
of all “lights.”

Reeny
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He knew from the beginning and after the fall we would have to exist in absurdity…and know it! but find no way out of it. So He enters into the thick of it to point us in the way out of it…who is Lord of Absurdity and The Absurds (and we all are!) …i.e. transcends it and in Him we too transcend it! because in the cross with Him we plunge into the thick of it in order to rise out of it…without Him we remain in the thick of it…but now we see only as through a mirror darkly… then we shall see face to face The Lord of The Absurd transcending it. What is ‘it’? : reality.

What indeed in this universe is more absurd than the cross…than suffering…nor can we escape it… what is more absurd than that through a shocking evil we are saved?

The spiritual life transcends the absurdity because in Him we now live and move and have our being who have always lived and moved and had our being in Him. Hence reality is not complete without spirituality!!! …in fact reality is absurdity without spiriuality.

I fear Reeny we make sense only to each other ! … does that mean you can fool a lot of the people all of the time for sure …but not all the people all of the time …or are we insane? …and does it matter?

Cacha Sis…

Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_25.gif…we just follow the bouncing ball huh?
 
…following the bouncing ball as it were… Calvary was such an horrendous evil that it will take all the suffering and all the crosses in all the world until the end of time to in any way approximate the evil that was done!!! …this is a great mystery because the evil on Calvary was complete…and yet not complete***…yet! because Jesus willingly and with love for His Father’s Will and us overcoming his human fear and indeed horror endured it to enter into the absurdity of existence fully…that it brought about a far greater good confirmed by the resurrection…in Him we are born into eternity… that is the only way to make sense of suffering and loss…we are completing Calvary and the absurdity of it … to bring things back to the theme of this thread…loss and absurdity.

And now we must go and do likewise and strive to love God’s Will and each other more than…well just more than…as hard as that is…twas not easy for Jesus either! No there can be no Christ without His cross…it is our standard, our symbol, our proclomation and our way of life…to complete Calvary…yet never without a resurrection!
We need to see death as a part of the whole of reality … accept it for what it is…an absurdity in which every single oneof us is plunged … for the reality of death is a part of eternity because it exists. We are in eternity at this very moment… death is just another aspect of this moment, this now. In life we are in death…I think St. Paul, thank God for him, said that too…think so - unsure!..I would tend to add, forgive me, and in death we are in life. If I do not die, then I do not live.
Cacha …

Barb

*** St Paul: “we make up inour own bodies what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ” … words from the mystic’s mystic!!!
 
Dear Barb,

Forget my ramblings. You are the one with solid,
beautiful insight.

quote: Barbara Therese
we are completing Calvary and the absurdity of it
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That’s what I meant by the “candle” of absurdity, but I couldn’t
wrap my mind and heart around the WHY of it. I understood
the WHAT of it. Your quote, above, places the absurd where it belongs…as part of redemptive suffering.

Those of us who are sensitized to the absurd can complete
Calvary with Jesus.

You know what I thought yesterday?

The parable of the Good Samaritan is the quintessential
“absurd” parable, in some sense.
Here’s the two men who passed by, and then comes
the despised Samaritan. “True” religion passed on
by. Compleat absurdity.

The runner-up was the establishment, complaining that
Jesus was having a meal with “tax collector’s and sinners.”

You’re farther along the path than I, Barb. I think you
would be more merciful to the two who walked on by than
I am…I’ve got much growing to do.

Reeny
 
Hi my friend…I had to cut out you Post because I exceeded the number of words conditions on this Board. I had t o cut our the Post to which I am referring due to the fact I would exceed the number of words conditions on this Board…but please go to Reen12’s Post at 12.46am Today. It is worth the read and a prayerful ponder! The Post to which I refer is numbered #24.
Reeny you understimate yourselef…by following the bouncing ball I mean that I was picking up on the clues you left and taking them a step further…if you had not left the clues you did (becomes ‘cause’) I would not have reasoned as I did (becomes ‘effect’). As for me, I never quite know if I am arriving, departing or just plain crazy! … an d it all has truly ceased to matter to me.

Anthony de Mello tells a lovely little tale in his book “Heart of The Enlightened” (you just may Reeny find much comfort and more ‘clues’ in de Mello: Anthony de Mello SJ … I would suggest, forgive me! that you get*** Awareness*** first!*** ). The tale de Mello tells is this (not verbatum but the sense of his message)…

A master had a pupil who was always asking “Master where am I on the spiritual road?”. The master always replied “It does not matter!”…but the student would almost every day pester the master about where he was at…and the master always had the same reply too “It does not matter !”

The day came for the young monk to leave his master and monastery and travel abroad now a fuly professed young monk. So off he goes and the master is rather glad to see the back of him and his same annoying request “Master where am I at?”

Six months pass and nothing from the young monk. So the master starts to get concerned about his young pupil. Another few months goes by and nothing heard of him. So the master sits down and writes a short note to the absent pupil:

“MY son, how are you and please tell me where you are at?”

He posts the note and another couple of months go by and he gets no reply from his young student. Then one day an envelope arrives for the Master. Eagerly he opened it…

“MY master, I am quite well thank you and as to your question of me “Where am I at?” …my master I am sure I do not know where I am at, nor does it matter at all to me that I don’t!!!”

The master goes running through the monastery crying out aloud “He has made it! He has made it! My son has made it at last!”

I too am a fan of the Parable of The Good Samaritan…but I love your imagery ‘true religion’…well put! This Post was much longer but I am having dreadful problems with my mouse and cannot afford a new one! … I type merrily away and then suddenly the cursor will go mad and erase whole blocks of it…obviously The Lord has his reasons for not even a hair of our head falls that He does not know and care …

Send warm regards, Maureen

Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_11_12.gif… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_6_7v.gif …smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_6_6v.gif
**** I am putting in this footnote in a new Post, somewhat wary that if I try to put it into this Post…it shall suddenly erase…as it did ini tially…This Post was much longer!!!*
 
Here is my footnote or ps to my Post #25……………

*** Anthony de Mello SJ is frowned upon by T he Church…………however, not in total or right across the board. I must admit too on reading De Mello some things left me cold and I rejected them. As I have said I am very selective in reading. But the genius of de Mello is that he only leaves clues………the conclusions one must arrive at oneself. This is indeed an art and a genius. This is to state that de Mello is not manipulative or dogmatic. In coming t o conclusions I look to Scripture first to confirm my own reasonings. How do I know that Scripture is The Revealed Word of God……………Faith ultimately is, and the Grace is present……….an abandonment, a trust and a confidence to leap absolutely into the darkness. A simple act of Will. One cannot explain only state. The Dark Night is no picnic intersperced perhaps with moments of intense light that cannot be explained only stated. The absurd permeates the whole of our existence. The Dark Night involves a continual stripping process of our concepts, ideas, ideals – in short a stripping of what previously gave us a sense of security …. all as it were, until there is nothing left but to walk away or to leap into blackness in absolute abandonment, trust and confidence………. Grace becomes present to stay there and want to be nowhere else………in fact if anything even in darker darkness for the darkness is experienced as Darkest Bright Light………….absurd, insn’t it! St. Teresa of Avila states that probably only those who have some experience themselves will comprehend. She also states that there is always something of The Dark Night ……….of darkness that is indeed dark! ………… having negotiated the Dark Night the soul does not become gifted with some superior consciousness………….rather more ordinary than ordinary. More absurdity huh? …………. A deep humility is present in the soul for he/she will see with absolute clarity his/her own position in the Blinding Light of The Lord………….at times Justice at times Mercy. An entirely humbling effect and no pious platitude………a reality that the soul sees with absolute and convinced authenticity and integrity…………….I think the reason why the saints cannot paint themselves quite black enough! I tend to think The Dark Night is far more common than we realize………….it is words of explanation that fail………not experience of.
You will find with both de Mello and Merton the absolute lack of the flowery image and language of the 16th. century…same concepts expressed in 20th/21st language …i.e. we can comprehend in terms of our own experiences. And experience is continually happening to us 24 hours of each and every day!

I have waffled Reen……………but at least it has not erased!!!

I loved your t erm ‘true religion’ for I have long felt that we need to redefine religion perse…not change…re define! In the Parable of The Good Samaritan, who indeed is practising true religion…and how do we define this in modern terms? Here is the absurdity of it and the stumbling block to the worldly…dollars will not buy or define true religion. Virtue will!..downplay the dollar and uplay virtue. And what does this say about human wealth in dollar terms that does incorporate Cat holicism if not in actual liquidity, then certainly in assets.

Love in Jesus…………Barb

St. Maria Goretti Pray for Us
 
Hi, Barb,
quote: Barbara Therese
In the Parable of The Good Samaritan, who indeed is practising true religion…and how do we define this in modern terms?
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I think: Where charity is, God is. Whether the individual
knows God or no.

Remember in the OT:
“I don’t want your sacrifices, your bullocks…I want
mercy toward the widow and orphan.” [Words to
that effect.]

The* ideal* is both sacrifice and mercy. But, when all
is said and done, mercy.

When I was young, I thought that when I went before
God, I would demand an explanation for suffering.
My plan, closing in on 60, is to cast myself on my
face before Him, and plead for mercy.

He will show mercy to me, as I have shown mercy
to others, huh? And all, by His grace, in the darkness
of a keen sense of the absurd…offered up to complete
Calvary, which I now see, due to your words, Barb.

Best,
reen
 
Reen,
I just lost my mother-in-law last Tuesday. We buried her July 1 (this past Friday). That’s just 5 days ago! She was a very forceful personality, very dominering and opinionated and I loved her dearly! She was more a mother to me than my own mother! She told me what I needed to know and when I needed to know no matter what. She was also quick to tell me when I was wrong about something - fortunately we agreed on a lot! She loved her family and friends with a vengence! She was very active - she was on 3 tennis leagues (competitive tennis!) at 76 years old and was playing tennis 2 weeks before she was diagnosed with the cancer that killed her! It took her within 3 months!

She was my rock. I could count on her to be truthful with me and I could tell her pretty much anything. I could vent my frustrations about her own son, my husband, to her. She helped me handle things. I will not have that rock anymore, at least here on earth.

I’m not sure why I’m telling all of this instead of just getting to my point - but my point is this: God did not kill your relative/friend or “let” her die. Our physical death is a result of our nature, our original sin. If we were still in the Garden, we would never die, but we know how that turned out! Death is another part of life - Life with Him! Your relative is ALIVE with Christ! More alive than you are right now! What a sight that must be!!!

You shouldn’t blame God - He didn’t do this to you. The first thing I did when I heard about my mother-in-law’s death was pray to God for the strength to handle this and to give her husband and all her children and grandchildren the strength as well. Turn to God at this time, He is there for you. He wants to hold you in His arms and comfort you. Lay your head on His chest, He will make things bearable until you are able to take over.

I know that words cannot take away the pain. Believe me, my father-in-law is such a lost and sad soul right now and there is nothing I can do to help him - it hurts my heart so much to see him this way. I pray constantly to God to help him through this. God is not our enemy, He is our friend and He loves us and does not want to see us in pain.

Let Him help you. Open your heart, just a little to Him. He will make things a little easier for you if you let Him.

I pray that your pain eases quickly just as I pray that mine will too.
 
Hello, DianJo,

I’m so sorry that you’ve lost your dear mother in law.
It’s all so hard. My anger at God has dissolved
with the passing of the days, as He knew it would.
Thank you for your words of counsel, DianJo.
I’ll be sure to say a prayer for your family and for
your mother in law,

Best,
Maureen
 
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reen12:
Hello, DianJo,

I’m so sorry that you’ve lost your dear mother in law.
It’s all so hard. My anger at God has dissolved
with the passing of the days, as He knew it would.
Thank you for your words of counsel, DianJo.
I’ll be sure to say a prayer for your family and for
your mother in law,

Best,
Maureen
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Thank You Maureen and I’m glad to hear that your anger at God has subsided. I think He understands us when we do that - after all, he made us. Thank you for the prayers, we need them. Our family will be going through may changes in the next few months.
 
Hi, DianJo
quote:** DianJo**
Our family will be going through may changes in the next few months.
Click to expand...
I understand what you’re saying.
May God be with you and your family, as these
changes take place.

Maureen
 
What most folks forget is that this is NOT Heaven. We are on earth and earth is not our ultimate destination. Mary told St. Bernadette, " I can not promise you happiness in this life, only in the next ".

My wife’s uncle passed away some years ago. He had just retired a few weeks earlier and died very suddenly of a massive heart attack. He was by far one of the nicest people I ever met.

And last year my wife’s cousin lost her daughter and her daughter’s husband in a tragic car accident. They had just gotten married a couple of months prior. They met as Sunday school teahers. What a wonderful young couple, just beginning to start a life for themselves.

There is an old saying the good die young, And if not young then certainly before the time they seemingly deserve. You would think a new retiree would deserve a few years of leisure and travel after so many years of hard work, and you would expect a loving young couple of newly weds would deserve a few years of a happy marriage before their time is up.

But God’s ways are not ours, and we can not know what His thinking is. Maybe these folks are ready for Heaven now, while we need a few more years of working on.

There was a book by a rabbi, “When bad things happen to Good People.” It suggests that maybe God doesn’t have (or doesn’t execute) absolute control over every life. Maybe God lets natural events occurs, accidents happen at random, arterys get clogged as folks get older.

What we need to know is that good folks who die, go to Heaven, and Heaven is a far better place than earth. They go to a reward they deserve and it is not a punishment or a loss of time on earth but a gain of time in Heaven.

We love this life and focus on the loss of our friends and relatives who have gone before us. But they are where we want to be, maybe when there are so many more of our loved ones there, we will be much less clinging to this world.

We live in a world of pain, suffering, struggle, strife, sin, and death (along with all the positives also). Wouldn’t be a whole like nicer if we could keep all the positives and eliminate all the negatives ? That’s what Heaven gives us, and that’s what happens to the people that we ‘loose’.

wc
 
I lost my very best friend whom I have known for eighteen years to cancer. She was only 46. She was diagnosed on 5th May and died on 16th June. I have been absolutely devastated. Fine one moment and crying my eyes out the next. I have never been affected by anyone’s death so badly - probably because she was young, it was not expected and it happened so quickly. She left a husband and two boys. I went across to her funeral in the UK two weeks ago. I am slowly coming to terms with it but it’s going to take me a long time.

I just keep talking to Our Lord, saying rosaries, saying prayers in front of the Blessed Sacrament and I just keep trying, trying, trying to get back to normal again. I’m also trying to show as much support as possible to her husband and kids.

It’s certainly not easy but death is a part of life.
 
This thread is so wonderful. 🙂

I haven’t actually read the whole thing, but here we are, outcasts, ministering to each other in a meaningful way!

The revelation of “why not me” was really cool. I’ve begun to think that our illness have given us insights that have allowed us to perceive beyond what “normal” perception even allows, and that we have a purpose based on what we have seen. I think it brings us to union with St. Paul in jail, and with Jesus and/or John for being thought of as crazy for having an “unauthorized” way to express one’s feelings, beliefs, and faith.

My piano teacher was interviewed on a news program once (she survived the sinking of the Andrea Doria on her way back from studying piano in Rome, although she did lose all her piano music) and said she believes that we are going to be held accountable for how we make good use our talents.

I think everyone who has stuff happen in life (I think of it as the fertilizer that brings growth) and survives it well has unique contributions to give. Those who have actually been labeled as crazy, and especially those who have enjoyed the hospitality of psycho wards, have seen life from a certain viewpoint we could not have enjoyed through any amount of study. We’ve been outside the norm, and have a perspective on “normal” that some only see portrayed.

Here’s a cool quote from the guy who sends me quote-of-the-day:

“Quiet minds can’t be perplexed or frightened, but go on in fortune or misfortune at their own private pace, like a clock during a thunderstorm.”
  • Robert Louis Stevenson
Alan
 
This IS a wonderful thread! Just reading everyone’s comments today is already helping me with my grief a lot. Thanks so much everyone!
 
Dear WILKM,

I’m glad that you’ve found this thread a help. God console
you in your loss,

reen12
 
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wcknight:
What most folks forget is that this is NOT Heaven. We are on earth and earth is not our ultimate destination. Mary told St. Bernadette, " I can not promise you happiness in this life, only in the next ".

My wife’s uncle passed away some years ago. He had just retired a few weeks earlier and died very suddenly of a massive heart attack. He was by far one of the nicest people I…

I have had to delete some of this Post in the interests of the 5000 word limit for which I apologize. The Post in full is in this thread.

***…***would think a new retiree would deserve a few years of leisure and travel after so many years of hard work, and you would expect a loving young couple of newly weds would deserve a few years of a happy marriage before their time is up.

But God’s ways are not ours, and we can not know what His thinking is. Maybe these folks are ready for Heaven now, while we need a few more years of working on.

There was a book by a rabbi, “When bad things happen to Good People.” It suggests that maybe God doesn’t have (or doesn’t execute) absolute control over every life. Maybe God lets natural events occurs, accidents happen at random, arterys get clogged as folks get older.

What we need to know is that good folks who die, go to Heaven, and Heaven is a far better place than earth. They go to a reward they deserve and it is not a punishment or a loss of time on earth but a gain of time in Heaven.

We love this life and focus on the loss of our friends and relatives who have gone before us. But they are where we want to be, maybe when there are so many more of our loved ones there, we will be much less clinging to this world.

We live in a world of pain, suffering, struggle, strife, sin, and death (along with all the positives also). Wouldn’t be a whole like nicer if we could keep all the positives and eliminate all the negatives ? That’s what Heaven gives us, and that’s what happens to the people that we ‘loose’.

wc
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HI Wcknight…

…inspiring thoughts I though Wcknight…death is the most devestating loss there is I think … even Jesus felt the tragedy of death when he wept over the death of his pal Lazurus … it is only natural that the loss of loved ones affects our emotional life in a radical way………… one of the absurdities life presents is love, from the moment we love we open ourselves to the equal potential to be hurt through some sort of loss of the loved one in some way…yet we go on loving…THANK GOD!

Sorting my own self out over a tragic loss I found two documents really helpful:

The first is really apologetics, but I found it helpful getting my loss into perspective. The second document is Pope John Paul 11 on Christian Suffering and its meaning in life…

http://www.apologeticspress.org/modules.php?name=Read&cat=1&itemid=101

Apologetics Press :: Reason & Revelation
July 1998 - 18[7]:49-53

The Problem of Suffering
by Trevor Major, M.Sc., M.A.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j..._jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

APOSTOLIC LETTER
SALVIFICI DOLORIS
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS, TO THE PRIESTS,
TO THE RELIGIOUS FAMILIES
AND TO THE FAITHFUL
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

ON THE CHRISTIAN MEANING
OF HUMAN SUFFERING

Maybe these documents will help others to come to terms and find some meaning in loss, death, suffering…

Barb
 
I think everyone who has stuff happen in life (I think of it as the fertilizer that brings growth)
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…loved it Alan (Post #34)…leapt off the page and hit me as inspiration tends to do…what a great way of putting life’s difficulties smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_106.gif …excellent!..and in the ‘vernacular’ too…a phrase or term understandable to the man in the street as it were…

Barb
 
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