Loss of salvation?

[wcknight]

One has to be careful that we are not being evasive and actually lying about our sins if we try to " spare ourselves from embarrassment". We must be completely truthful in confession or risk misleading the priest. Priests have heard everything you will not shock them with anything new or strange.

If you are hiding the severity of the sin or disguising its nature, you risk making a poor or invalid confession.

If you say I flirted with another woman while you really committed adultery with her, then you essentially lied about what it was that you committed. I would rather a priest be excessively harse with my minor sins (which has happened before ) than be too lenient because i was too vague when I did something serious.

 

[Lion_Heart]

That’s a good point. When I was in the Protestant Evangelical movement many preached that. For years I didn’t believe it. Nor did the church I attended. But when I did attend a church they taught me it to be true. I started believing in Once Saved Always Saved. My walk with Christ went down to nothing. I became apathetic and just want on sinning. After all, I’m saved. Yes, the Bible does NOT teach that doctrine. However, perhaps a person will spend much time in Purgatory… don’t you think?

Greetings in Christ AnotherMe

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, … has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote

Scripture Catholic by John Salza. (Catholic Apologetics)
III. Predestination and the “Elect”
Quote: “There are two types of predestination, TO GRACE and TO GLORY. … Predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). … 1 Tim.2:6 – Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.” End quote. (Emphasize mine.)

SUMMARY OF THE ABOVE TWO CITATION

1. All predestined to heaven will end up in Heaven. CAN BE NO EXCEPTION.
2. All predestined to grace (even if they become Christians) they will all end up in hell. CAN BE NO EXCEPTION.

These doctrines above are official teachings of the Church.

If we look at the above picture we can see the mistake of the protestants.
They assume: Only those whom God predestined to Heaven become Christians.

So, they are saying: “Once saved always saved.”
Their mistake is: They don’t realize, not just only a predestined can be a Christian. – This is very clear from Hebr.6:4-6.

If they would say: “All predestined to heaven end up in Heaven” they would be right.

In fact: “Once saved always saved,” and “All predestined to heaven end up in Heaven,” based on the same principle.

The mistakes of some Catholics who are not familiar with related Catholic doctrines, conclude: If a Christian can end up in hell, then any Christian can end up in hell.

They don’t realize those Christians whom God has predestined to Heaven in fact CAN NOT end up in hell and cannot die outside the state of grace.

According to Catholic doctrine which comes from the above doctrine: Those who are not predestined to heaven cannot die in the state of grace.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[total_relism]

It was clear. I thought I answered it. Grace is the love of God poured into our hearts. Mortal sin makes us unable to receive that grace.

I would encourage you to look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church–in this context, particularly the sections on mortal sin and on grace.

Edwin

thanks for links. So it seems [would you agree] that the human sin happens first, they turn from god, but than god also stops his grace?.

This. It is pretty clear. This isn’t really issue where we have to spend a lot of time pouring through Church documents and Catholic doctrine. Long before the New Covenant God made it pretty clear that “if you reject me, I’ll reject you”.

Exodus can help for starters. God leads his first-born (AKA the saved by His grace)to the promised land. How many did not make it? Follow the circumcised throughout the entire old testament and see how they were punished (even destroyed) for their rejection of God and His laws. St Paul tells us “These things were written for our instruction” in 1 Cor 10.

I agree, however

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
romans 5.8

“Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:7-8)

I could give many more from ot/nt. Since sin we all have turned from god, it is in gods love for us we are saved. I think you may be mistaking saved and damned.

Wow. This is getting a little complicated and scary. But I do appreciate your feedback.
So, how does one confess a sin? Say I think something terrible. Must I confess the exact sinful though or can I just say what it was in a broad brush to spear the Priest the horror of my thought as well as me the embarrassment.

as is much i have learned here. I see you are a recent revert, please feel free to pm me on anything. If you ever get the feeling that the catholic church may be man made and formed to control good believers, pm me, jesus did allot so you could have direct access to god.

From the Catechism:

**1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
**

This all has to do with our wills; God won’t force us to turn towards Him, or remain turned towards Him, anymore than He forced Adam to.

so it seems, man chooses to turn from gods grace, than god stops sending? is that correct?.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Greetings in Christ AnotherMe

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, … has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote

Scripture Catholic by John Salza. (Catholic Apologetics)
III. Predestination and the “Elect”
Quote: “There are two types of predestination, TO GRACE and TO GLORY. … Predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). … 1 Tim.2:6 – Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.” End quote. (Emphasize mine.)

SUMMARY OF THE ABOVE TWO CITATION

1. All predestined to heaven will end up in Heaven. CAN BE NO EXCEPTION.
2. All predestined to grace (even if they become Christians) they will all end up in hell. CAN BE NO EXCEPTION.

These doctrines above are official teachings of the Church.

If we look at the above picture we can see the mistake of the protestants.
They assume: Only those whom God predestined to Heaven become Christians.

So, they are saying: “Once saved always saved.”
Their mistake is: They don’t realize, not just only a predestined can be a Christian. – This is very clear from Hebr.6:4-6.

If they would say: “All predestined to heaven end up in Heaven” they would be right.

In fact: “Once saved always saved,” and “All predestined to heaven end up in Heaven,” based on the same principle.

The mistakes of some Catholics who are not familiar with related Catholic doctrines, conclude: If a Christian can end up in hell, then any Christian can end up in hell.

They don’t realize those Christians whom God has predestined to Heaven in fact CAN NOT end up in hell and cannot die outside the state of grace.

According to Catholic doctrine which comes from the above doctrine: Those who are not predestined to heaven cannot die in the state of grace.

With love in Christ,
LH

You seem to have a misunderstanding of predestination. God certainly does predestine His elect to glory, and withdraw His grace from the reprobate, and will that the elect should receive glory and the reprobate damnation (not that He desired them to go to hell, but He does will that they should be punished for their willful resistance).

But this does not mean that one can try to seek God and not receive grace. If someone is actively seeking God, they are already being moved by grace. Actions cannot be separated from their predestined end. You cannot say that someone who goes to confession and receives the sacraments cannot receive grace because they are not elect, because you have literally no way of knowing. Also, I don’t really know what that has to do with the OP.

Predestination is a sticky subject. Molinist and Banezian Thomists have been arguing for centuries on the nature of predestination and God’s grace, as well as middle positions that have sprung up.

 

[fhansen]

so it seems, man chooses to turn from gods grace, than god stops sending? is that correct?.

Man is a morally accountable being, not a beast, even in the fallen state. He’s responsible for responding to grace, turning to God or turning away from Him. Grace is freely offered to all, but we can refuse/resist it. The Prodigal isn’t forced back into the open arms of the Father, or forced to remain once there. Otherwise salvation should/would be universal.

 

[Lion_Heart]

You seem to have a misunderstanding of predestination. God certainly does predestine His elect to glory, and withdraw His grace from the reprobate, and will that the elect should receive glory and the reprobate damnation (not that He desired them to go to hell, but He does will that they should be punished for their willful resistance).

But this does not mean that one can try to seek God and not receive grace. If someone is actively seeking God, they are already being moved by grace. Actions cannot be separated from their predestined end. You cannot say that someone who goes to confession and receives the sacraments cannot receive grace because they are not elect, because you have literally no way of knowing. Also, I don’t really know what that has to do with the OP.

Predestination is a sticky subject. Molinist and Banezian Thomists have been arguing for centuries on the nature of predestination and God’s grace, as well as middle positions that have sprung up.

Greetings in Christ PeacelinChrist

You don’t argue with me, you have been arguing with John Salza and with Church doctrine.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[sousley]

as is much i have learned here. I see you are a recent revert, please feel free to pm me on anything. If you ever get the feeling that the catholic church may be man made and formed to control good believers, pm me, jesus did allot so you could have direct access to god.

Could you explain why you seem to be attempting to engage in blatant proselyting against forum rules?

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Greetings in Christ PeacelinChrist

You don’t argue with me, you have been arguing with John Salza and with Church doctrine.

With love in Christ,
LH

How do I argue with Church doctrine? I am very confused. What in my post was incorrect?

If God predestines someone to glory, they will be moved by grace on earth. If someone is reprobate (how this occurs is a matter of debate, whether God foresees their demerits or simply passes over them to show His justice toward original sin) they will not be moved by grace (or will actively resist it, depending on how one views predestination and reprobation).

Someone who receives the sacraments properly and perseveres in a state of grace IS numbered among the elect, by definition, because they have been moved by sufficient grace and have received also efficacious grace. God will NOT send them to hell. He could, but He is just, and keeps His promises. The reprobate, however, will reject God while on earth by a willful turning from Him (how He decides to withhold from them efficacious grace seems to be a matter of debate, or rather simply a great mystery). Those who do not receive His grace, have obviously been numbered among the damned.

Yet we CANNOT know who is who, and only God, in His omniscience, knows who He has elected and who He has reprobated, and why, by His sovereign will, He has done so.

How is this not in line with Church doctrine?

 

[UbiCaritas15]

I was hoping someone could help me out with proper catholic doctrine on loss of salvation.

After one has been baptized and forgiven of all sin. Than that person loses their salvation [or grace] through mortal sin. What is the reason for the loss of sin? Is it that the** person** has rejected or loss the grace of god, or is it **god **that no longer gives the grace or salvation because of the persons sin?.

thank you much.

The person has rejected the grace of God.

“For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves.” Rom 1:22-24

God gives us free will. He respects our choices, just like the father in the prodigal son parable. He never turned away from his son, his son turned to his own desires. God’s gift of charity is always there the second we reorient ourselves to him.

 

[fhansen]

How do I argue with Church doctrine? I am very confused. What in my post was incorrect?

If God predestines someone to glory, they will be moved by grace on earth. If someone is reprobate (how this occurs is a matter of debate, whether God foresees their demerits or simply passes over them to show His justice toward original sin) they will not be moved by grace (or will actively resist it, depending on how one views predestination and reprobation).

Someone who receives the sacraments properly and perseveres in a state of grace IS numbered among the elect, by definition, because they have been moved by sufficient grace and have received also efficacious grace. God will NOT send them to hell. He could, but He is just, and keeps His promises. The reprobate, however, will reject God while on earth by a willful turning from Him (how He decides to withhold from them efficacious grace seems to be a matter of debate, or rather simply a great mystery). Those who do not receive His grace, have obviously been numbered among the damned.

Yet we CANNOT know who is who, and only God, in His omniscience, knows who He has elected and who He has reprobated, and why, by His sovereign will, He has done so.

How is this not in line with Church doctrine?

The understanding that grace is resistable must be maintained, in any case.

 

[Contarini]

Wow. This is getting a little complicated and scary. But I do appreciate your feedback.
So, how does one confess a sin? Say I think something terrible. Must I confess the exact sinful though or can I just say what it was in a broad brush to spear the Priest the horror of my thought as well as me the embarrassment.

Unless you deliberately welcomed and relished the horrible thought, you don’t have to confess it at all.

I am not in full communion with Rome myself (we have confession in the Episcopal Church, but take a more relaxed approach), but I’ve been told by a very traditional Catholic friend that with lustful thoughts, for instance, you don’t have to confess details–just say, “I entertained impure thoughts X number of times” (or “frequently” if it was too often to remember). Physical sins are different because they affect other people, so you need to mention relevant details that make it more or less serious. But I may be wrong about this.

That being said, it’s a longstanding maxim of Catholic penitential literature that the shame you feel at confessing your sins is good for you and should not be avoided.

Edwin

 

[Lion_Heart]

You seem to have a misunderstanding of predestination. God certainly does predestine His elect to glory, and withdraw His grace from the reprobate, and will that the elect should receive glory and the reprobate damnation (not that He desired them to go to hell, but He does will that they should be punished for their willful resistance).

But this does not mean that one can try to seek God and not receive grace. If someone is actively seeking God, they are already being moved by grace. Actions cannot be separated from their predestined end. You cannot say that someone who goes to confession and receives the sacraments cannot receive grace because they are not elect, because you have literally no way of knowing. Also, I don’t really know what that has to do with the OP.

Predestination is a sticky subject. Molinist and Banezian Thomists have been arguing for centuries on the nature of predestination and God’s grace, as well as middle positions that have sprung up.

Greeting in Christ PeacelnChrist

My post was an answer to the post of AnotherMe.
In the post AnotherMe stated once believed the protestant doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved.”

This thread also deals with loss of salvation. Those two cites of mine deals with both.
My aim was to clear up the protestant doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved,” in the light of Catholic doctrines what AnotherMe use to believe.

By proving to AnotherMe that the Protestant doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” is incorrect, and where is the error in it, I only summed up the two cites.
I didn’t have to go into the fine details of them to prove my points and I didn’t.

If you just send your second post without the first one, I would have no problems with it.

In fact I still have no problems. As far as I am concern we have cleared it up, and I fine with it.

I wish you PeacelnChrist a happy Christian life with a lot of supernatural merit.

With love in Christ,
LH