Lost baptismal records

[Debbie58]

I ran into a lady today by chance out shopping. She saw I had a crucifix necklace and started pouring her heart out to me. She has been away from the church for some time and wants to come “home”. She is in a civil marriage and wants to have it “blessed” and come back to full communion with the faith. Her hold up is…she grew up in a communist country. The churches were burned and records were lost. She can not provide a baptism certificate to go forward with her reentrance into the faith.

What does one do when there is no record of Baptism and no way to track it down? I told her to talk to a priest…but she said it’s always the same story…no certificate…no convalidation…no communion…etc… I can see she really wants to resolve this but doesn’t know where to turn. Any help is appreciated.

 

[Magdalen2013]

I suspect she may have to go through RCIA – if no proof of baptism, then she’d be conditionally baptized at the Easter Vigil.

 

[His_helpmeet]

I ran into a lady today by chance out shopping. She saw I had a crucifix necklace and started pouring her heart out to me. She has been away from the church for some time and wants to come “home”. She is in a civil marriage and wants to have it “blessed” and come back to full communion with the faith. Her hold up is…she grew up in a communist country. The churches were burned and records were lost. She can not provide a baptism certificate to go forward with her reentrance into the faith.

What does one do when there is no record of Baptism and no way to track it down? I told her to talk to a priest…but she said it’s always the same story…no certificate…no convalidation…no communion…etc… I can see she really wants to resolve this but doesn’t know where to turn. Any help is appreciated.

She might see if there is anyone still alive who can attest to her Baptism (i.e. was present at the actual ceremony).

I would imagine that part of the issue is that without a Baptism certificate, it is not possible to ascertain that she was never married in the Church (this information is added to the Baptism certificate at the parish where you were baptized).

I would suggest that she speak to another priest and explain her situation. Maybe if she can attest to the fact that she has never been married before, they might consider a convalidation anyway.

 

[1ke]

What does one do when there is no record of Baptism and no way to track it down?

1. Contact the diocese in which the parish resided, there may be records that she is unaware of.
2. If no records can be located, but someone can attest to her baptism and/or confirmation (Eastern Rite would be initiated all at once, while Latin Rite would have been at separate times), they can complete an affidavit of baptism (and/or confirmation).

If she remembers her confirmation, she can attest to it herself in the affidavit.

1. If no one can attest to her baptism, it should be a simple matter for the local priest to meet with her, conditionally baptize and confirm her, and convalidate her marriage.
2. If she does not get help from her parish, she should contact her diocesan judicial vicar’s office.
3. If she gets no help at the diocesan level, she should contact these people:

stjosephcanonlaw.com

1. She absolutely does NOT go through RCIA if she has completed her sacraments of initiation (Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation).

I told her to talk to a priest…but she said it’s always the same story…no certificate…no convalidation…no communion…etc… I can see she really wants to resolve this but doesn’t know where to turn. Any help is appreciated.

If a priest told her that then shame on him.

 

[SMHW]

I don’t know what the solution is but my guess is that many pastors are not equipped to handle such situations.

This woman probably needs to contact her diocesan tribunal to find someone who specializes in international cases like this.

 

[jmcrae]

What does one do when there is no record of Baptism and no way to track it down?

The usual procedure is to provide a letter from someone who was present at the Baptism to attest that it actually took place. The usual people to write the letter would be either the parents, or the godparents.

Photographic evidence is also acceptable, as long as the candidate is recognizable. In one case, the only existing evidence was a videotape of the Baptism. Fortunately, the candidate was recognizable, and the person doing the taping mentioned the date of the recording and the location and name of the church where it took place.

I simply included the videotape in the file, and wrote down the particulars into the application form.

I agree that if she has been fully initiated into the Church, she should not go through RCIA. If a conditional Baptism is required, it should be done privately.

 

[Debbie58]

Thanks for all the answers. Part of her problem is the churches where she lived were all leveled and burned. No records were kept or found. Her family does not have a copy of her sacramental history. She is in her late 50’s and her whole family (what’s left) live in Europe and are of no help. She has been living in Limbo for several years…even going to another denomination church since she can’t fully participate in the Catholic church.
My first thought was “start over” If you need to have proof of Baptism…have them conditionally Baptize you. She has pictures of her Confirmation…but was told that was not enough. This “other church” Baptised her in their faith…I told her to show them that…as “we” accept other faiths Baptisms as valid. All the poor woman wants is to have her civil marriage “blessed” and to come back to a Faith I have no doubt she misses very much.

Please pray that she will contact our Priest and that he will have the wisdom to guide her. There HAS to be an answer for her.

 

[jmcrae]

Please pray that she will contact our Priest and that he will have the wisdom to guide her. There HAS to be an answer for her.

I certainly will. I know there is an answer for her; it is simply a matter of being stubborn enough to find it.

 

[edwest2]

My father was born in what later became a Communist country. In his case, we called the Polish Consulate in Chicago. I suggest your friend contact a Consulate in the US for her country. That is how my father got an official copy of his birth certificate. If they can’t help, perhaps she should try an ethnic organization in the US, since I have a feeling others have gone through this. If you think it OK to mention the name of the country, perhaps I can find something further. If not, that is totally understandable.

Ed

 

[Phemie]

My father was born in what later became a Communist country. In his case, we called the Polish Consulate in Chicago. I suggest your friend contact a Consulate in the US for her country. That is how my father got an official copy of his birth certificate. If they can’t help, perhaps she should try an ethnic organization in the US, since I have a feeling others have gone through this. If you think it OK to mention the name of the country, perhaps I can find something further. If not, that is totally understandable.

Ed

In this case it’s not birth records she needs but sacramental records. Those are not usually shared with the government. If she knows where she was baptized and confirmed the place to start is with the diocese in which that parish is located.

If she still has relatives in Europe who know she was baptized all they would have to do is approach their priest to sign an affidavit to that effect. The affidavit would then be sent to her Pastor, allowing things to proceed.

 

[Debbie58]

Ed …She is from Cuba. Castro burned all the Catholic churches to the ground…and with them…all the records. It wasn’t just “Her” church…it was ALL the Catholic churches in Cuba. Her Family lives in Spain now and have been little help for her. I feel so bad for her…I feel like there is something I can do to help her. She gave me her phone number and asked me to keep in touch with her. It was a weird circumstance…as I had no intention of going out today…and I ended up where I was and she saw my cross and “Knew” I was Catholic…the flood gates opened to a complete stranger. I’m praying she follows up with our Priest and he has some good answers for her. I helped her as far as I could…but thought maybe someone here may give me something I had not thought of. If this fails her…I am sending her to the St. Joseph Foundation…THey have helped me with a few things…with positive results.

 

[jmcrae]

In this case it’s not birth records she needs but sacramental records. Those are not usually shared with the government. If she knows where she was baptized and confirmed the place to start is with the diocese in which that parish is located.

If she still has relatives in Europe who know she was baptized all they would have to do is approach their priest to sign an affidavit to that effect. The affidavit would then be sent to her Pastor, allowing things to proceed.

In some countries, birth and baptismal records are combined, in which case, the Baptism record would be kept with the birth record. It’s worth a shot.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

If she has a picture of her Confirmation and can swear to it, I would think that US parishes would take that as proof. There should be no reason why she cannot return to the Church. Please help her follow up with this.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

There must be a mechanism for such situations. She can call her chancery and ask. Depending on who answers her call, she might get a wrong answer the first time around. Following up with a good canon lawyer can help.

If she’s uncertain that she was baptized and no living person can attest to it happening, I doubt she’d have to go through RCIA. The priest might repeat the ceremony in case it was never performed to begin with.

Encourage her to continue on this path. Be an instrument of her return to the faith.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

I was adopted at 9 months of age. They baptized me in the orphanage but under my birth name (which I didn’t know until I was 44 years old.) So there is no baptismal certificate in the name I’ve had since I was a year old. I recently began the process for an annulment. All I have is a copy of the program for my confirmation ceremony which lists my name among the confirmandi candidates. The chancery said that might be sufficient. Apart from a few years after high school I’ve attended Mass regularly and have been active in the faith. The bureaucracy will usually waive certain formal/documentary requirements if the underlying facts and circumstances provide credence that a person has, in fact, received the sacraments of formation.

 

[Phemie]

I was adopted at 9 months of age. They baptized me in the orphanage but under my birth name (which I didn’t know until I was 44 years old.) So there is no baptismal certificate in the name I’ve had since I was a year old. I recently began the process for an annulment. All I have is a copy of the program for my confirmation ceremony which lists my name among the confirmandi candidates. The chancery said that might be sufficient. Apart from a few years after high school I’ve attended Mass regularly and have been active in the faith. The bureaucracy will usually waive certain formal/documentary requirements if the underlying facts and circumstances provide credence that a person has, in fact, received the sacraments of formation.

One of my friends adopted two boys who had been baptized at birth. There were photos of their Baptisms provided but no documentation because the boys had been apprehended by Social Services due to abuse.

Having the information of their adoption included in the original records and new certificates issued under their adoptive names, the usual way to deal with this, was not acceptable to Social Services, which wanted to avoid letting anyone know where the boys had ended up and in a small community the information would have likely leaked out.

 

[jmcrae]

One of my friends adopted two boys who had been baptized at birth. There were photos of their Baptisms provided but no documentation because the boys had been apprehended by Social Services due to abuse.

Having the information of their adoption included in the original records and new certificates issued under their adoptive names, the usual way to deal with this, was not acceptable to Social Services, which wanted to avoid letting anyone know where the boys had ended up and in a small community the information would have likely leaked out.

I had an interesting situation with a man who had been adopted twice during his childhood, with two name changes.

He had a copy of his baptismal certificate, but it wasn’t the name he was going by at the time. He also was not willing to contact the Registry office to get the documentation for the name change, again because someone at that registry office might have contacted his birth parents to let them know where he was.

In the end I got a hand-written letter from his current adoptive mother to say that the man formerly known as is the same person as her son, now known as.

 

[edwest2]

I’ve managed to gather the following. It may, may, be possible that the records were removed secretly or surviving priests and other witnesses exist. Communist Cuba was not very honest to its people at the time. So, some starting points. And point one: persistence is the key.

" Records from Cuba

1.  You can acquire records from Cuba, especially church records, by writing directly to the ancestral parish. CubaGenWeb has a directory of parishes and their contact information. ([cubagenweb.org/phones/index.htm](http://www.cubagenweb.org/phones/index.htm))

2.  When you examine these documents take advantage of the fact that Cuban civil and church records are patterned on the Spanish model and often will mention not only the parents but the grandparents as well. Often these records include information as to where each of the ancestors was born, whether and where they were living at the time of the event, and sometimes even their occupation."

Source: cubangenclub.org/facts.php

"Catholic Archdiocesis and Diocesis

"The Conference of Catholic Bishops in Cuba (Conferencia de Obispos Católicos de Cuba) has a web site at www.iglesiacubana.org.

Keep in mind that the Cuban government would have found these records useful beyond their value as “religious documents.” And might have used them to help convict those who were against the Castro regime at the time, or other “troublemakers.” And even if the Church was burned to the ground, the possibility exists that the records were moved right before.

The Cuban Consulate may be another good resource:

cubadiplomatica.cu/sicw/EN/ConsularServices.aspx

Here is a list of Roman Catholic Dioceses in Cuba:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Santiago_de_Cuba

Here is a list of Cathedrals:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cathedrals_in_Cuba

Writing to Pope Francis is also an option:

vatican.usembassy.gov/vatican/writing.html

A brief article that shows how things are slowly beginning to change in Cuba.

foreignaffairs.com/articles/142746/victor-gaetan/the-cuban-knot

One thing to remember, if any Church or group is unsure or does not know, ask if they know someone else who does, or may know. That has been my experience when trying to find answers.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Phemie]

I had an interesting situation with a man who had been adopted twice during his childhood, with two name changes.

He had a copy of his baptismal certificate, but it wasn’t the name he was going by at the time. He also was not willing to contact the Registry office to get the documentation for the name change, again because someone at that registry office might have contacted his birth parents to let them know where he was.

In the end I got a hand-written letter from his current adoptive mother to say that the man formerly known as is the same person as her son, now known as.

I had a woman call and ask me to forward her daughter’s baptismal certificate to the priest who was doing her pre-nuptial investigation; under no circumstance was the daughter to see it. Turns out that her daughter was her niece, whom she and her husband had adopted after her Baptism. They’d never told her she was adopted, let alone that her aunt was, in fact, her mother. All we had was the original entry in the register and she hadn’t been aware that she could get the adoption noted and a certificate reissued with the new information.

I had her send in the documents, recorded the adoption, forwarded the certificate with the amended information. I must say that it greatly saddened me that her parents were keeping secret the fact of her adoption.

 

[Debbie58]

Ed…THANK YOU SO MUCH! I will pass that information on to her. I pray that she can find a way to come back to the church. I don’t know why this woman is weighing so heavily on me…but I feel I need to help her if I can. She just seemed so desperate…and she saught me out for some reason.

Please keep both of us in your prayers as well as our Pastor Fr. David. God Grant him the wisdom to give good councel to this woman.