Lost Bible books

[FireFromHeaven]

A Muslim linked me this article. He said these books show how God did not preserve the bible as several books were lost. How would you reply?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

God simply did not see the lost books mentioned in Scripture as important enough for us to
have. The Bible is sufficient as it is, what books contained and preserved are so in the Bible
because God inspired such to happen.

The Muslims so easily ignore the so-called (not by me) “Satanic
Verses” which were found in then abrogated from their Qur’an:

Have ye thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza
And Manat, the third [idol], the other?
These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries)
Whose intercession is to be hoped for.
(53:19-22)

Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, Manat were preIslamic goddesses, Al-Uzza by the way being the goddess
worshiped by the Quraysh, Muhammad’s tribe, and Muhammad encouraged their presence
in Islam. The excerpt was edited and now the latter verses read:

Are yours the males [sons] and His the females [daughters]?
That indeed were an unfair division!
They are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers, for
which Allah hath revealed no warrant. They follow but a guess and
that which (they) themselves desire. And now the guidance from
their Lord hath come unto them.
(53:21-23)

The Muslim explanation is that Satan placed those words on Muhammad’s tongue, but
if the Qur’an is the true Word of God and Muhammad the True Messenger of God, then
God’s words would have been protected, and the Devil would have had no power to make
prophet utter such deception.

So the Bible was compiled by the inspiration
given by God, while the Qur’an was in fact not.

 

[Nine_Two]

The Bible is God inspired, compiled by the Church. Just because a text claims to be Christian doesn’t mean it really is. The Canon of Scripture was created by the Church Fathers under guidance from the Holy Spirit.

The argument is an excellent argument if you assume that Scripture is supreme over Holy Tradition, and I think illustrates why that is not the case.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Them being “lost” would imply that they were included to begin with. Books such as those were rejected because even in their day they were recognized as forgeries, or lacked the backing to support them as true Apostolic texts like the books which eventually did make it into the Bible.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

He also said this to a Protestant.

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it. (2:75)

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (2:79)

Actually, the Qur’an mentions that the Bible got corrupted. Furthermore, the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, told us not to consult the people of the Book lest they tell us something false and we accept it, and lest they tell us something true and we reject it.

“After all, “we sent down the Torah to you…””, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not receive the Torah. The story in the modern day Torah is of no importance. It goes on to show the envy of the Jews who changed it.

Here is some evidence for you:

gawaher.c…ures/?p=1238433

You read Protestant translations. What do you think of the fact that the Old Testament translation you read is not in accordance with the New Testament you read?

More corruption: gawaher.c…slam/?p=1229980

Add to the list that the ending of Mark is missing in the earliest manuscripts. Also the famous “Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing” is missing from the earliest manuscripts. So is the story of the adulteress.

What do you think about the fact that the NT misquotes the OT?

Answer: Matthew 2:13-15 makes the claim that Mary, Joseph, and Jesus fled to Egypt until recalled by an angel. This is supposedly in fulfillment of a prophecy: “Out of Egypt did I call My son.” The source of the so-called prophecy is Hosea 11:1. However, in the context of the verse as found in Hosea there is no prophecy, but simply a restating of israelite history.

What is more, the following verse in Hosea is a continuation of the prophet’s statement. It says of those called out of Egypt that they sinned against God: “The more they [the prophets] called them, the more they went from them; they sacrificed to Baalim, and offered to graven images” (Hosea 11:2). The application of Hosea 11:1 to Jesus would, on the basis of verse 2, describe him, as well as Mary and Joseph, as sinners. If one reads Matthew’s so-called fulfillment of prophecy within the context of that “prophecy” then one must consider that Jesus was a sinner."

Add to this the fact that Matthew 27 supposedly quotes Jeremiah as a fulfilled prophecy when in fact the verse (similar one) is found in Zechariah.

This is by no means an exhaustive list.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

He also said this to a Protestant.

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it. (2:75)

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (2:79)

Actually, the Qur’an mentions that the Bible got corrupted. Furthermore, the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, told us not to consult the people of the Book lest they tell us something false and we accept it, and lest they tell us something true and we reject it.

“After all, “we sent down the Torah to you…””, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not receive the Torah. The story in the modern day Torah is of no importance. It goes on to show the envy of the Jews who changed it.

Here is some evidence for you:

gawaher.c…ures/?p=1238433

You read Protestant translations. What do you think of the fact that the Old Testament translation you read is not in accordance with the New Testament you read?

More corruption: gawaher.c…slam/?p=1229980

Add to the list that the ending of Mark is missing in the earliest manuscripts. Also the famous “Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing” is missing from the earliest manuscripts. So is the story of the adulteress.

What do you think about the fact that the NT misquotes the OT?

Answer: Matthew 2:13-15 makes the claim that Mary, Joseph, and Jesus fled to Egypt until recalled by an angel. This is supposedly in fulfillment of a prophecy: “Out of Egypt did I call My son.” The source of the so-called prophecy is Hosea 11:1. However, in the context of the verse as found in Hosea there is no prophecy, but simply a restating of israelite history.

What is more, the following verse in Hosea is a continuation of the prophet’s statement. It says of those called out of Egypt that they sinned against God: “The more they [the prophets] called them, the more they went from them; they sacrificed to Baalim, and offered to graven images” (Hosea 11:2). The application of Hosea 11:1 to Jesus would, on the basis of verse 2, describe him, as well as Mary and Joseph, as sinners. If one reads Matthew’s so-called fulfillment of prophecy within the context of that “prophecy” then one must consider that Jesus was a sinner."

Add to this the fact that Matthew 27 supposedly quotes Jeremiah as a fulfilled prophecy when in fact the verse (similar one) is found in Zechariah.

This is by no means an exhaustive list.

So you seriously believe this stuff? … also, your links don’t work.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

I didn’t say I believed it. I just lack the knowledge or resources to counter it (except for the Hosea example).

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it. (2:75)

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (2:79)

Actually, the Qur’an mentions that the Bible got corrupted. Furthermore, the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, told us not to consult the people of the Book lest they tell us something false and we accept it, and lest they tell us something true and we reject it.

“After all, “we sent down the Torah to you…””, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not receive the Torah. The story in the modern day Torah is of no importance. It goes on to show the envy of the Jews who changed it.

If you were to read the book I linked, you would see evidence of the Bible’s corruption. However, here is some evidence for you:

gawaher.com/topic/735929-christian-and-jewish-scriptures/?p=1238433

You read Protestant translations. What do you think of the fact that the Old Testament translation you read is not in accordance with the New Testament you read?

More corruption: gawaher.com/topic/734248-jesus-resurrection-islam/?p=1229980

Add to the list that the ending of Mark is missing in the earliest manuscripts. Also the famous “Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing” is missing from the earliest manuscripts. So is the story of the adulteress.

What do you think about the fact that the NT misquotes the OT?

Answer: Matthew 2:13-15 makes the claim that Mary, Joseph, and Jesus fled to Egypt until recalled by an angel. This is supposedly in fulfillment of a prophecy: “Out of Egypt did I call My son.” The source of the so-called prophecy is Hosea 11:1. However, in the context of the verse as found in Hosea there is no prophecy, but simply a restating of israelite history.

What is more, the following verse in Hosea is a continuation of the prophet’s statement. It says of those called out of Egypt that they sinned against God: “The more they [the prophets] called them, the more they went from them; they sacrificed to Baalim, and offered to graven images” (Hosea 11:2). The application of Hosea 11:1 to Jesus would, on the basis of verse 2, describe him, as well as Mary and Joseph, as sinners. If one reads Matthew’s so-called fulfillment of prophecy within the context of that “prophecy” then one must consider that Jesus was a sinner."

Add to this the fact that Matthew 27 supposedly quotes Jeremiah as a fulfilled prophecy when in fact the verse (similar one) is found in Zechariah.

This is by no means an exhaustive list.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

I didn’t say I believed it. I just lack the knowledge or resources to counter them.

Here are the links.
gawaher.com/topic/735929-christian-and-jewish-scriptures/?p=1238433
More corruption: gawaher.com/topic/734248-jesus-resurrection-islam/?p=1229980

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

So? The faith would still exist even if no biblical book was preserved.

 

[LtTony]

A Muslim linked me this article. He said these books show how God did not preserve the bible as several books were lost. How would you reply?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

Tell your Muslim friend that their exclusion is no different than some hadiths being determined as inauthentic, unreliable and/or given little weight in consideration of Islamic doctrine and law.
Some of these so-called “Lost Books” were determined to be fakes, penned centturies after Christ. It is hilariously ironic that Muslims – whose religion was founded 500-600 years after the Gospels were written – bring up these estra-biblical documents. Further, Islam can’t even produce the mythical “Injeel”, the so-called lost Gospel of Jesus.

Further, tell your Muslim friend that even if they were included in the Bible, they wouldn;t change Christian doctrine one bit. IIRC, none of the screams against the Trinity or Resurrection.

The Bible is God inspired, compiled by the Church. Just because a text claims to be Christian doesn’t mean it really is. The Canon of Scripture was created by the Church Fathers under guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Them being “lost” would imply that they were included to begin with. Books such as those were rejected because even in their day they were recognized as forgeries, or lacked the backing to support them as true Apostolic texts like the books which eventually did make it into the Bible.

The irony of this is…some of the books they thought were authentic–thought to have been written by specific people–we later discovered were not…and vice-versa.

.

All concise excellent points.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Ok thanks everyone. Does anyone have any replies for his other “corruption” examples?

 

[Sam_777]

A Muslim linked me this article. He said these books show how God did not preserve the bible as several books were lost. How would you reply?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

Tell him then the same concept applies to those Quranic verses:

1. The versions of Quran prior to Othman era (those burnt by him).
2. The goat which ate some Quranic verses under Aisha’s bed!
3. The verses of Quran which describe that there was a stoning verse in Quran and now no more, and the length of some Surras are different now than the days of Muhammed!

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Tell him then the same concept applies to those Quranic verses:

1. The versions of Quran prior to Othman era (those burnt by him).
2. The goat which ate some Quranic verses under Aisha’s bed!
3. The verses of Quran which describe that there was a stoning verse in Quran and now no more, and the length of some Surras are different now than the days of Muhammed!

A goat ate part of the Quran? That is very interesting.

 

[jakasaki]

A goat ate part of the Quran? That is very interesting.

I thought you knew that…

 

[FireFromHeaven]

I did. However we are talking about the protection of scriptures. This made me think that the goat in question was being used for divine purposes. That has got to be the funniest example of divine intervention I can think of. Makes one wish there were more goats running around nowadays.

 

[Sam_777]

And be ready to hear from that guy “the preserved tablet myth”, claiming that the Quran was preserved, on the contrary, the Quran is full of:

1. Historical errors.
2. Naming errors.
3. Language errors.
4. Suras mismatch between the past Quran during Muhammad times and our current time!

 

[LtTony]

Ok thanks everyone. Does anyone have any replies for his other “corruption” examples?

You will never “win” because their corruption argument is circular. Bottom line: they believe Mohammad, we don’t. End of story. But you may be able to assist honest and open-minded folks.

By Muslims standards, the Bible is corrupted. Their book, the Koran, is fundamentally different than ours in how it was created. They believe the Koran is literally the dictated word of God. Ours was written by men, inspired by God.

Explain to Muslims that those “missing books” are judged similar to hadiths. Hadiths are judged to be authentic, weak, inauthentic, etc, and are used as the basis for doctrine and Islamic law. Explain that missing books were never part of sacred scripture, then later excluded. Some are outright frauds written centuries after Christ.

In my experience, Muslims call each different English translation a different “version” of the Bible. Be familiar with the (small) differences in each. Now, Catholics and Protestants do, in fact, have different versions. But challenge your Muslim friends to show the doctrinal differences between the two based on the versions.

They can’t. Because there aren’t any. Ask them the same in respect to the different translations.

Muslim criticism of the Bible is hypocritical. They say the Bible is corrupted when it comes to some things but not others. All four Gospels are consistent in their accounts of the death and resurrection of Christ, possibly the linchpin in the Christian faith. Yet they deny – per the Koran – that Christ was killed.

So good luck. You probably realize you won’t change the muslims’ minds, but you might for undecideds reading your discussion.

 

[ericc]

And be ready to hear from that guy “the preserved tablet myth”, claiming that the Quran was preserved, on the contrary, the Quran is full of:

1. Historical errors.
2. Naming errors.
3. Language errors.
4. Suras mismatch between the past Quran during Muhammad times and our current time!

Fr Zakaria Boutros a Coptic priest has a website that queries the Islam faith.

For example:
42- Multiplicity of quran versions and their discrepancies fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/42-Episode.pdf
43- The discrepancies in the quran text In different versions fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/43-Episode.pdf
44- Contradictions in the quran fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/44-Episode.pdf
45- The linguistic miraculousness And grammatical errors Of the quran fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/45-Episode.pdf
46- The foreign Non-Arabic words of the quran fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/46-Episode.pdf
47- The historical errors in the quran fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/47-Episode.pdf
48- Scientific Miraculousness And Errors in the Quran fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/48-Episode.pdf

These are in English but you will spot spelling and other errors but you should be able to figure out what the message is. Some of the pdfs appears to be transcribed from videos which if you search hard enough you will find it on you tube.

I especially liked the one about Othman the 3rd Caliph burning all the other qurans except his own version. Talking about lost books…