Lost Catholic Faith

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sonofbarry:
There might be a spiritual realm, but the most likely end is the plain old death of which there is abundant proof.
Which really isn’t that bad. I find it much more desirable than a celestial dictatorship
Depends on how well you deal with the crisis of meaning, frankly.

Early 20th century man killed God and fascism and communism arose to replace it. Now we have consumerism/capitalism and endless relativism.

I’m slow to call all that an improvement.
 
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Vonsalza:
Eh, some would argue my Catholicity at this point.

But they definitely change. Anthropologically, if it doesn’t the religion will die. No exceptions. Flex or get left in the detritus of history.
I agree, but this diminishes the value of “the book” quite significantly.
The book was hardly ever the point.

The Church was. The gathering of the people.
 
Early 20th century man killed God and fascism and communism arose to replace it. Now we have consumerism/capitalism.
Not true. To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens: replace the word fascism with right-wing Catholicism in the history books and they are synonymous. They are one in the same.

The misguided arguments claim that the Stalin and Hitler regimes were atheistic and secular, but in reality were rooted in religious ideology.
 
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Vonsalza:
Early 20th century man killed God and fascism and communism arose to replace it. Now we have consumerism/capitalism.
Not true. To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens: replace the word fascism with right-wing Catholicism in the history books and they are synonymous. They are one in the same.

The misguided arguments claim that the Stalin and Hitler regimes were atheistic and secular, but in reality were rooted in religious ideology.
They were rooted in ideology, which some men will always deign to call “religious”.

The problem is that God was a binding force for the human “tribe”. When it goes away, what replaces it? It’s going to be something…

As I mentioned to @Bradskii in another thread, if God isn’t materially “true”, He’s certainly appears to be functionally true.
 
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They were rooted in ideology, which some men will always deign to call “religious”.
Agree
The problem is that God was a binding force for the human “tribe”. When it goes away, what replaces it? It’s going to be something…
Not an easy answer, but I don’t see any reason to hold on to the supernatural explanation. It may work for developing nations, but the birth control fraud is hampering efforts to end poverty.
As I mentioned to @Bradskii in another thread, if God isn’t materially “true”, He’s certainly appears to be functionally true.
If it works for people, fine, I have no problem. Just don’t impose the ideas on me and keep them out of government.
 
Not an easy answer, but I don’t see any reason to hold on to the supernatural explanation.
I think it’s the only one sufficiently non-arbitrary that somewhat prevents a macrosocial crisis of meaning that fuels so much conflict.

But that’s just me. And realizing that it’s possibly smoke and mirrors robs it of its power to do its job.
If it works for people, fine, I have no problem. Just don’t impose the ideas on me and keep them out of government.
That’s the darned thing about it; it’s group glue. Tribal mortar.

Tribes inherently require an “other” to help further define the tribe. If you voluntarily self-select as other, you’ve invited a sub-optimal life. That would be equally true if the world was run by secular atheists and you were the only devout Christian left.

Your kids wouldn’t get invited to birthday parties, at the very very least.
 
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Sometimes things like disciplines change but the dogma of the Church does not change. The truth is consistent so to change views on the whim of society would defeat the purpose of the Church.
 
Sometimes things like disciplines change but the dogma of the Church does not change. The truth is consistent so to change views on the whim of society would defeat the purpose of the Church.
Indeed, and well said.
 
Sometimes things like disciplines change but the dogma of the Church does not change. The truth is consistent so to change views on the whim of society would defeat the purpose of the Church.
No, I understand that is the good and necessary Catholic line on the matter and to be sure - it’s not something where I care about whether you ever get around to agreeing with me.

But it changes. Absolutely. Catholic theologians call this “doctrinal development”. But change is change - regardless the fascia anyone wants to staple over it.

Once upon a time heretics were burnt, Popes didn’t try to preserve the feelings of Catholic children with dead, atheist dads and men roughly 15-45 were occasionally encouraged to engage in activities that had them swinging weapons crying “DEUS VULT!!!” - and many other things. Catholicism was, frankly, pretty intolerant!

Now are there some things that haven’t changed? Sure! This is also a necessary reality for religions to continue their existence. Some things must change for it to survive, but some things must not, else the connection to the August and Lauded Past of our Honorable Ancestors is severed.

I think this is why you’ll never see an exhaustive list of infallible teachings. Church episcopacy is generally smart enough to know that the last 1000 years of western legalism has boxed them into enough corners.

No more Galileos, thank-you-very-much.
 
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Interesting discussion. Ex C of E in my case by the way. Head choirboy don’t you know. But it was like a social club with religious rules. Dress this way (cassock and ruffles!), adopt a particular stance and say certain words in a certain way. Kneel here, drink this, eat that. Some call and response (always good to get a crowd together) and sing a few songs.

Adam and Eve, a talking snake, animals two by two and baby Jesus in a manger (she walked over a hundred miles when 9 months pregnant? In the bleak mid winter?). But all harmless stuff. Then I found out that everyone actually believed it. Or at least told me that they believed it. So I left them to it.

As regards contraception, I have oft wondered why Christians don’t ponder the completely bizzare method that God has decried we use to populate the planet. Do you remember when you first heard about the mechanics when you were a kid: ‘Are you kidding me? You put what into where?’

Being omnipotent and all, He could have set it up any way He wanted. Maybe as per my parents first attempt at explaining it (when a man and a woman really love each other very, very much…). Except that the dot dot dot was ‘he puts this in there’ but that bit was always left out.

Now we all know why sex feels great. Nature has a way of weeding out those who can’t be bothered trying to inseminate the female of the species. And let’s face it, it still can be a matter of life and death for most mammals just to get to first base. There are generally a lot of equally keen males who would dearly like take you out of the picture any which way they can. Just check out any bar near closing time that has a mix of hormone driven males and healthy young women.

So God knew (Him being omniscient as well) that this method, apart from being a monstrously inconvenient and messy affair, was going to cause more angst, guilt, misery and probably result in more spilled blood than all other aspects of humanity combined.

If someone had told me when I was young that having kids was a natural result of loving someone and committing to them completely and sex had been designed by the devil to bring out the worst of our animal instincts, then I would have thought - yeah, that sounds about right.

So. Sex is entirely natural. If it feels good and does no-one any harm, then go for it. We’re clever enough to have designed methods to prevent pregnancy. And yes, that means more people have sex more often when using contraception. Including the vast majority of Catholics.

If God doesn’t like it, then that’s His problem. He designed it that way.
 
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Bradskii:
I hope you’ll understand that decades of religious formation keeps me from involuntarily nodding ascent to the otherwise solid reasoning of a known atheist. But I almost did. Had to catch myself.

Sex can be great fun and looking at the fact that human population didn’t top 1 billion folks until roughly 1800 and now we’re just 218 years further down the road and at 7.6 billion (and extincting our fellow planet-mates at a fantastic clip…), I think we’ve finally gotten a little too successful at reproduction. But it’s still innately and inexorably fun… So what to do?

Contraception seems to be the perfect answer. Like, perfect in a way that answers to big questions usually never are.

And wonderfully, the societal braking-effect that conservatism serves has been largely overcome on the issue except for roughly 10-15% of the largest Christian denomination.

But as I said, religions adapt or they fade. Catholicism won’t be any different. As (I think) we need God in order to make the metaphysical work, we’ll need contraception to make man’s relationship with the planet work. It may not be true per some text like HV; but it’s true in practice. And that’s arguably the greater truth.

I’m taking my boat out this weekend. Have a good one, all.
 
Our ways is not God’s ways, our thought is not God’s thought.

As high is the sky, so high is God’s thought.
 
I agree entirely!! It was BECAUSE the Chinese
Communist Gov’t did NOT institute NFP that there
is a “one child” Policy in place now that the population
has exploded during Mao’s reign as chairman. Look
at all the women who are forcibly ABORTED of their
babies by the government hospitals!! Good grief, talk
about SIN.
And, it is an entirely RC Church approved method of
birth control:
https://ccli.org/what-is-nfp/
 
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If there is a God and Catholic Church is His Church then I am sure that She will be able to overcome societal changes.
 
Our ways is not God’s ways, our thought is not God’s thought.

As high is the sky, so high is God’s thought.
No, no. Our ways ARE God’s ways. He designed us. He created where we live. It is not credible to suggest that things do not turn out the way He realised they would.

Designing the sexual act as you must believe He did and expecting no problems is like a father leaving a child in a room full of ice cream and candy and telling the kid that it’s entirely up to her if she eats any but there will be consequences.

What do you really think will happen? The kid eats the ice cream and the father beats the hell out of the kid. And then shrugs his shoulders and says: Well, I did warn her…’
 
Join a ministry and get active at your parish. I see you talking a lot about people not caring about you and them not doing things right but do you care for them? Have you tried reaching out to others? And I do not mean chatting with others after Mass over coffee. Become a Catechist. You will feel that community when you are sitting with everyone waiting to be confirmed and be Baptized and know that you had the great honor of doing Gods work by helping instruct them on The Faith and become closer with God. Join The Knights of Columbus and do a lot of charity with them. You will find a brotherhood if you want it. Join the society of saint Vincent De Paul and see if you do not find community and friendship with the others while you are helping feed the poor.

I have found that a lot of people just go to mass and kind of talk with others they know but do not reach out to people they do not know but the active members at a parish tend to forge real friendships and it is by being active that you can get a real sense of community. You are a man…as am I. We do not expect things to come to us and get upset when they do not. When we want something we go get it. If you want community and fellowship then there is no reason you cannot get in in The Catholic Church if you take the effort to make it happen.
 
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Yes, that is part of the problem. We registered, attempted to join many, many ministries, and have been ignored both in returning phone calls and emails. I had a HUGE saga in trying to join the K of C in my parish (which is a huge, active council). I finally enlisted the K of C on the national level to contact them for me and get them to respond. Nothing. Four months and nothing. I view the entire unpleasant experience as my wife and I being directed to return to the Orthodox Faith.
I thought you were leaving because your wife does not accept the RCC’s position on divorce/remarriage - that she is upset because the young lady you’ve been advising was upset about annulment process?
 
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