Lost my virginity

[Cristiano]

…It isn’t some arbitrary law that God says ‘you must obey because I say so.’…

If you look at the greatest commandment you will see that the justification for us in doing so is simply because God said so. Pretty simple explanation from God.

 

[clem456]

As I said, it is enough to get you into purgatory where that major flaw is then healed.

Almost all of the above is uncalled for mudslinging.

Are you denying that attrition along with the sacrament of confession is sufficient to remit the eternal punishment for sin? Have you even read my last few posts in this thread?

Technically what you say is true, but it is minimalist. And if you hinge your salvation on doing “enough” or that which is “sufficient” you are presuming. You turn God’s unmeasureable gift into a quantity to be bargained for. God doesn not want to us to depend on a last minute score, or to look in our pockets for the ticket money and say, "will you take a buck fifty?’

We are not called to fear God. There is no denying that fear of punishment can be a motivator to conversion, but it is the bare minimum, and if fire and brimstone is our message, forget about it, no one will want Christianity for what it is: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Fear, shame, condemnation all tend to keep a person enslaved to sin.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Technically what you say is true, but it is minimalist. And if you hinge your salvation on doing “enough” or that which is “sufficient” you are presuming. You turn God’s unmeasureable gift into a quantity to be bargained for. God doesn not want to us to depend on a last minute score, or to look in our pockets for the ticket money and say, "will you take a buck fifty?’

We are not called to fear God. There is no denying that fear of punishment can be a motivator to conversion, but it is the bare minimum, and if fire and brimstone is our message, forget about it, no one will want Christianity for what it is: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Fear, shame, condemnation all tend to keep a person enslaved to sin.

I don’t do the bare minimum nor do I suggest that anyone else should. How this started out was whether guilt and fear are useful messages, and to a person in a certain state of worldliness* the answer is a resounding yes.

*I am most emphatically not stating that the OP is in anyway worldly, in fact he seems like a nice guy who gave into temptation and is sincerely trying to get his life back on track.

 

[jimmy]

If you look at the greatest commandment you will see that the justification for us in doing so is simply because God said so. Pretty simple explanation from God.

There are two concepts that all of Christian morality is based on: beauty and happiness. The east focuses more on beauty, and the west has focused more on happiness since Aquinas. From the western perspective, all of morality is based on natural law. Read a little Aquinas and you will know the Catholic teaching on why God gives the law and tells us how to act. It is for our own good, not because God said so. It isn’t an arbitrary law that we should love God and love our neighbor. Those are given for our own happiness, not simply because God said so. Where does it say in Luke’s Gospel ‘you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul; and love your neighbor because I said so.’ I have never seen that justification used in scripture.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

It isn’t mudslinging, it is called rhetoric. You have a problem with me saying ‘behold, the minimalist theology’? That is exactly what you are preaching, with legalism tied in with it. It’s all about the bare minimum. Virtue and character are irrelevant.

I deny your legalistic minimalism. You have made everything irrelevant except some arbitrary law. The law has become absolute, and virtue has become meaningless.

Yes, I have read your posts. They don’t change anything about what was said.

I never said virtue and character are irrelevant; in fact for one who has love only for the world this may well be the message to get his attention so that by God’s grace and by good counsel one’s life of sin may be brought to an end and true virtue and character may be built.

I don’t care for your brand of “rhetoric” which ignores what I’m actually saying and rebuilds the conversation into you mocking a sock puppet instead of engaging my position in a meaningful way.

 

[Cristiano]

There are two concepts that all of Christian morality is based on: beauty and happiness. The east focuses more on beauty, and the west has focused more on happiness since Aquinas. From the western perspective, all of morality is based on natural law. Read a little Aquinas and you will know the Catholic teaching on why God gives the law and tells us how to act. It is for our own good, not because God said so. It isn’t an arbitrary law that we should love God and love our neighbor. Those are given for our own happiness, not simply because God said so. Where does it say in Luke’s Gospel ‘you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul; and love your neighbor because I said so.’ I have never seen that justification used in scripture.

Interesting because I never heard of that either until a priest brought it up in his homily during the Divine Liturgy. If you look at the footnotes in a a Bible like the NAB you will see a direct link to Lev 19:28. I guess that Byzantines are more focused on the law than what you would think.

 

[jimmy]

I never said virtue and character are irrelevant; in fact for one who has love only for the world this may well be the message to get his attention so that by God’s grace and by good counsel one’s life of sin may be brought to an end and true virtue and character may be built.

I don’t care for your brand of “rhetoric” which ignores what I’m actually saying and rebuilds the conversation into you mocking a sock puppet instead of engaging my position in a meaningful way.

Let me restate, you made a virtue out of a vice. Cowardice is now a virtue because it makes someone avoid sin. So, in other words, all that matters is the law. All that matters is that you avoid the sin. It doesn’t matter that you avoided the sin because of your vice. Interestingly you have made virtue and vice equivalent.

That is the essence of this conversation. Yeh, you might say that the end is love of God and neighbor, but it is just an after thought. What matters is the bare minimum. Avoid these actions and you will be saved. It would be better if we were all aborted by our parents, then we wouldn’t have the option of committing those sins. If we can’t be aborted, we should just chain ourselves to a post so that we can avoid the sin.

 

[clem456]

I don’t do the bare minimum nor do I suggest that anyone else should. How this started out was whether guilt and fear are useful messages, and to a person in a certain state of worldliness* the answer is a resounding yes.

I do not want to be personal in insuinuating you or anyone else are doing the bare minimum, I am just addressing the issue. Sorry if I came across personal.
I wholeheartedly and emphatically disagree with your statement about guilt and shame as useful messges. A person enslaved to sin (which is not the OP, -yet-) already experiences separation from God.

Hypothetically, If you tell your teenaage child not to have sex or he will suffer the loss of his car, that may motivate him to avoid sex til your threat subsides. When he gets out into the world and is no longer subject to threats of punishment, what will his motivation be to avoid an unchaste lifestyle? If you have not told him about, and lived, a life of grace, he is simply avoiding punishment until he no longer fears it, and his faith will not be strong enough to withstand the glamour and empty promises of evil. I expect Our Father does not want a servitude of fear, but a life in love with Him.

I think more people are chased away from Christianity by a message of guilt and fear than anything else. People intuitively know that God should be -more than- a set of rules.

 

[jimmy]

Interesting because I never heard of that either until a priest brought it up in his homily during the Divine Liturgy. If you look at the footnotes in a a Bible like the NAB you will see a direct link to Lev 19:28. I guess that Byzantines are more focused on the law than what you would think.

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
Sorry, I assumed you were Roman. But, I still don’t see your verse. Since you are Byzantine, you might want to look at the book The Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ, by Maximus the Confessor. Beauty plays a large part in eastern spirituality.

 

[Marie1234]

Little update: I talked with her and laid it out to her, basically she said at first she doesn’t understand why we can’t because that’s what 2 people do when they are in love. I kept my ground and made it clear that if she can’t wait till marriage it’s ok to move on. She said that I was to important to her and that she would have to learn to control herself around me and that she would choose to be with me over sex so I’m going to give it a shot and see what happens. Thank you for the advice and support everyone.

Good for you!
Just watch out for temptations…

 

[clem456]

What happens when people base their morality on fear is, they will operate on the most near and present danger to themselves to make moral choices. The fear of damnation can seem very far away for a person in a tight spot and is easily taken over by the nearest fear.

Most abortions are done out of fear. People are afraid of the life-changing responsibilities. IF the OP for instance, finds himself expecting a child in this situation, his immediate fear will be that of being a father. The fear of losing his soul will probably be a distant second to child custody, finance, health insurance, cribs, diapers, altering his career, getting along with the mother, setting aside weekends for visitations.You can shout all you want about damnation, he will not hear you. So unless he has received a message of love for life, and seen the beauty that a child can bring to the world, he will probably operate on his emotions, his fear. Operating in a minimalist way will encourage an abortion to alleviate his fear.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Let me restate, you made a virtue out of a vice. Cowardice is now a virtue because it makes someone avoid sin.

Acting out of fear of hell is not cowardice anymore than it is cowardice to evacuate when you are in the path of a storm. Cowardice is when you either do what is evil or omit what is good from a motivation of fear.

So, in other words, all that matters is the law. All that matters is that you avoid the sin. It doesn’t matter that you avoided the sin because of your vice. Interestingly you have made virtue and vice equivalent.

As I said Above attrition is not vice, just an inferior good when compared to contrition. Likewise wisely acting out of a well advised fear is not wrong; it is simply a lesser right than to act out of rightly placed love.

That is the essence of this conversation. Yeh, you might say that the end is love of God and neighbor, but it is just an after thought. What matters is the bare minimum. Avoid these actions and you will be saved. It would be better if we were all aborted by our parents, then we wouldn’t have the option of committing those sins. If we can’t be aborted, we should just chain ourselves to a post so that we can avoid the sin.

Again you are arguing with your sock puppet. Tell him I said love is not supposed to be an after thought but the rightly ordered end.

 

[clem456]

Little update: I talked with her and laid it out to her, basically she said at first she doesn’t understand why we can’t because that’s what 2 people do when they are in love. I kept my ground and made it clear that if she can’t wait till marriage it’s ok to move on. She said that I was to important to her and that she would have to learn to control herself around me and that she would choose to be with me over sex so I’m going to give it a shot and see what happens. Thank you for the advice and support everyone.

I truly wish God’s blessings for you in this relationshiop. If you succeed in chastity with this woman you will beat the odds. Typically once the genie is out of the bottle, it is hard to get back in. Good luck.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Little update: I talked with her and laid it out to her, basically she said at first she doesn’t understand why we can’t because that’s what 2 people do when they are in love. I kept my ground and made it clear that if she can’t wait till marriage it’s ok to move on. She said that I was to important to her and that she would have to learn to control herself around me and that she would choose to be with me over sex so I’m going to give it a shot and see what happens. Thank you for the advice and support everyone.

Wonderful. I’ll be praying for y’all even more now.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I do not want to be personal in insuinuating you or anyone else are doing the bare minimum, I am just addressing the issue. Sorry if I came across personal.
I wholeheartedly and emphatically disagree with your statement about guilt and shame as useful messges. A person enslaved to sin (which is not the OP, -yet-) already experiences separation from God.

Hypothetically, If you tell your teenaage child not to have sex or he will suffer the loss of his car, that may motivate him to avoid sex til your threat subsides. When he gets out into the world and is no longer subject to threats of punishment, what will his motivation be to avoid an unchaste lifestyle? If you have not told him about, and lived, a life of grace, he is simply avoiding punishment until he no longer fears it, and his faith will not be strong enough to withstand the glamour and empty promises of evil. I expect Our Father does not want a servitude of fear, but a life in love with Him.

I think more people are chased away from Christianity by a message of guilt and fear than anything else. People intuitively know that God should be -more than- a set of rules.

The situation would be more that your son is going out partying and coming home drunk at 5:00 AM and you inform him that if he wants to keep his vehicle, stay under your roof and eat at your table he needs to get in line.

If we use your metaphor I am forced to ask what real world event correlates with us growing out of Gods house and laws that go with them?

 

[coachkfan1]

I did go to confession a couple times and always regressed. I went again today and i just really want to be steadfast and get my life and faith back on track with God’s will. I am very unhappy and depressed though because i just want the love and companionship of another woman. I have the best times with her even though yes she has led me to sin. I have no problem getting over her as long as i meet a good Catholic woman who sees eye to eye with me. I just want to be happy and i need to have faith and trust in God and know that true happiness lies within him and not another girl.

Thank you for the reply

First, I am glad that you went to confession. Second, it is normal for you to desire to share your life with a woman (not talking about sex but companionship). Third, and probably most important for someone your age in your situation, relationships are serious business and can often (as you have seen) have serious consequences and repercussions. You have given away one of the many gifts that God has given you, your virginity. That is done now, and so from this point forward you must start making wiser decisions. And I mean from this very moment. God loves you an He knows what and who is good for you. The fact that this girl sees nothing wrong with continuing the very thing that got you here should tell your heart that this is not the situation that you need to be in. I know that it is a hard thing for a twenty year old man but there are far greater stakes involved.

 

[round2]

Sorry, but I have not read every post in this thread so if someone (however unlikely) already expressed the following opinion then I apologize.

Jack8912, no one can ‘convince you’ to lose your virginity or much of anything else. You chose the act just as much as you choose whether to get fries with your burger or commit murder. The difference is that murder is not a natural act due to hormones racing through your body. If you are bothered by the act then ask whatever deity you choose for forgiveness but also move on with your life and always try to be the best person that you would like to be - warts and all… Peace.

 

[Cristiano]

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
Sorry, I assumed you were Roman. But, I still don’t see your verse. Since you are Byzantine, you might want to look at the book The Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ, by Maximus the Confessor. Beauty plays a large part in eastern spirituality.

You cannot read the verse because I cannot I am too dumb to cite a simple verse correctly: Lev 19:18 “… You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.” sorry for the error.

BTW Canonically I am a member of the Latin Church but I attend the Latin, Maronite, and Byzantine Liturgies. They are within a few miles from my house and they sustain different aspect of my spirituality. I am a very privileged individual.

 

[YoungCatholic21]

God wants us to respect Him, hold him in awe and wonder and adoration, but not to cower in fear. Fear is the most basic and weakest motivation to holiness. It is easily shaken by other fears. Christ takes fear and death to the cross with him, and Christ DOES rise from the dead, he lives and reigns now and forever. We do not live under the curse any more.

God and us is a relationship. Think of your own father and you. Certainly you feared your father on a very superficial level when you were a child. Now when you are grown, does you father want you to live in fear of him? I hope not. Hopefully we have relationships with our fathers, not necessarily as equals, but a realtionship in which each wants to hear the joys and struggles of the other. Fathers want to help and give their love. They want to see and hear from us (prayer).

God’s love and mercy is the only power that matters. The martyrs were not motivated to give the ultimate sacrifice by fear of damnation, but by hope in the joy of heaven.

The best way to holiness is indeed a love of God. But it is not a bad thing to fear God’s right justice. It is a true thing. Making the transition from respect to love is done by the work of prayer and virtue.