Lost the cultural debate on homosexuality

[goofyjim]

the reality is that you should be telling people that homosexual is the equivalent of paedophile.

Think of this throw the Catholic Churches own figures against them. Approximately 90% of sexual abuse by priests etc is on males.

Here we have a group of people (priests) who generally we would say are less likely to be or wanting to be sex offenders, however despite that 90% of all sex offences are aginst the males children.

And the truth is that all priest in the catholic church are male.

Despite the number of priests/clergy who are offenders, the number are still way below the "average’ in terms of percapita sex offenders.

The fastest growth industry in sex offences are those who report same sex offences. There are many in the field of child investigation that believe that sexual abuse of males by males is not that far behind that of male to female. If we think of the fact that at an absolute maximum the number in the population being gay are 3% then one can say that the chances of a homosexual abusing your son are extremely high, relatviely speaking in relation to a straitman abusing your daughter.

Those of you who don’t believe what I say do the research for yourself. I use to have the figures but only those who are willing to examine the truth will look at them and most people aren’t.

I experience same sex attraction. I am not a pedophile. That’s simply a stupid distorted correlation.

 

[goofyjim]

It is interesting that you do not have time to read a document that you have asked to see. It finds that over 80% of the abuse cases in the United States were homosexual in nature. As for whether or not this is fair, I have no reason to doubt that it is. It tends to support the idea that those with same-sex attractions are much more likely to succumb to sexual predation than their heterosexual counterparts. Whether this dysfunction manifests itself in such clinical pedophilia, ephebophilia or some other grave dysfunction that seeks to take sexual advantage of the vulnerable, I think it takes only a slight adjustment to forgive Mr. Hayes his use of the term “pedophile” in a more colloquial context.

Given the numbers that Mr. Hayes uses to support his thesis, it is certainly defensible to say that homosexuality is the equivalent of pedophilia given the disproportionate number of same-sex sexual abuse cases when compared to the incidence of homosexuality in the general population.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It is fearmongering for those who are uncomfortable talking about same sex attraction. You are inferring that someone like myself is more likely to molest a child. I wouldn’t even think of it. Stop the ***** accusations and get a better Christian attitude.

 

[hoosiertoo]

I experience same sex attraction. I am not a pedophile. That’s simply a stupid distorted correlation.

Not if you examine the data and can do simple math.

That you experience SSA and are not a pedophile is a great thing; however, to say that, as a group, homosexual men are more likely to be pedophiles is not the same as to say that all homosexual men are pedophiles.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It is fearmongering for those who are uncomfortable talking about same sex attraction. You are inferring that someone like myself is more likely to molest a child. I wouldn’t even think of it. Stop the ***** accusations and get a better Christian attitude.

No-one has made an accusation of pedophilia against anyone. No-one was “inferring” anything, certainly not against you. It is not fearmongering to make a simple statement of fact, although it could have been better expressed.

Data support exactly the following statement:

As a group, homosexual men are more likely to be pedophiles than their heterosexual counterparts.

I don’t think the conclusion is arguable, and attitude has nothing to do with it.

As to the OP -

It is time to come out of Babylon. I fear the American RCC is due for a purging. I suspect sooner rather than later would be best, but I believe that, unfortunately, the faithful will be driven out of the Church rather than vice-versa.

 

[goofyjim]

Not if you examine the data and can do simple math.

That you experience SSA and are not a pedophile is a great thing; however, to say that, as a group, homosexual men are more likely to be pedophiles is not the same as to say that all homosexual men are pedophiles.

No-one has made an accusation of pedophilia against anyone. No-one was “inferring” anything, certainly not against you. It is not fearmongering to make a simple statement of fact, although it could have been better expressed.

Data support exactly the following statement:

As a group, homosexual men are more likely to be pedophiles than their heterosexual counterparts.

I don’t think the conclusion is arguable, and attitude has nothing to do with it.

As to the OP -

It is time to come out of Babylon. I fear the American RCC is due for a purging. I suspect sooner rather than later would be best, but I believe that, unfortunately, the faithful will be driven out of the Church rather than vice-versa.

If we’re due for a purging You are going to have a hard time getting rid of me. I don’t put my faith in anything but the sacraments themselves. I am one of the faithful and I will not leave until I die.

I simply do not believe these statisitics. As I said it is fearmongering to believe that hose who experience ssa are more likely to molest children. It is an attempt to isolate them and make it impossible for them to exist in society. I am against homosexual behavior but I do not believe we need to correct ssa the way Other Eric and some lunatics on these forums do. The CDF in 1986 quite clearly stated that ssa is not a sin. A sin would need to be corrected. A disorder does not. One can live quite comfortably with a disorder as many with psychiatric disorders will testify to because psychiatric disorders don’t have cures.

 

[Kendy]

As to the OP -

It is time to come out of Babylon. I fear the American RCC is due for a purging. I suspect sooner rather than later would be best, but I believe that, unfortunately, the faithful will be driven out of the Church rather than vice-versa.

This may not be such a bad thing. There are way too many people in our pews who openly reject church teaching. I would not mind a smaller more unified church.

Kendy

 

[hoosiertoo]

If we’re due for a purging You are going to have a hard time getting rid of me. I don’t put my faith in anything but the sacraments themselves. I am one of the faithful and I will not leave until I die.

Since “I” am not the “purger” I wouldn’t worry about me. I wonder where the faithful who couldn’t live with the apostasy - if that’s the right word - of the ECUSA heirarchy are now?

I simply do not believe these statisitics. As I said it is fearmongering to believe that hose who experience ssa are more likely to molest children. It is an attempt to isolate them and make it impossible for them to exist in society.

It’s no more fearmongering to make such a statement than it is to say that 50-year-old lardbutts with an aversion to exercise and a taste for Doritos and beer (a not inapt discription of yours truly) would be more likely to have health problems than their more health-conscious counterparts.

If you don’t believe the statistics, refute them with others, but denial isn’t argument. It’s the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and hollering “Lalalala.”

I am against homosexual behavior but I do not believe we need to correct ssa the way Other Eric and some lunatics on these forums do. The CDF in 1986 quite clearly stated that ssa is not a sin. A sin would need to be corrected. A disorder does not. One can live quite comfortably with a disorder as many with psychiatric disorders will testify to because psychiatric disorders don’t have cures.

Homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, not a sin, although were I in your shoes I would be earnestly seeking a correction.

 

[hoosiertoo]

This may not be such a bad thing. There are way too many people in our pews who openly reject church teaching. I would not mind a smaller more unified church.

Kendy

I’d much prefer an enormous church full of evangelized, catechized, fully-formed Catholics who are doing the work of our Lord.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’d much prefer an enormous church full of evangelized, catechized, fully-formed Catholics who are doing the work of our Lord.

And so should all of us. The Master did not give us all those talents to squander or throw away. He expects us to work to increase His fortune.

 

[Kendy]

I’d much prefer an enormous church full of evangelized, catechized, fully-formed Catholics who are doing the work of our Lord.

Well, who wouldn’t?

 

[goofyjim]

Since “I” am not the “purger” I wouldn’t worry about me. I wonder where the faithful who couldn’t live with the apostasy - if that’s the right word - of the ECUSA heirarchy are now?

It’s no more fearmongering to make such a statement than it is to say that 50-year-old lardbutts with an aversion to exercise and a taste for Doritos and beer (a not inapt discription of yours truly) would be more likely to have health problems than their more health-conscious counterparts.

If you don’t believe the statistics, refute them with others, but denial isn’t argument. It’s the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and hollering “Lalalala.”

Homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, not a sin, although were I in your shoes I would be earnestly seeking a correction.

I have nothing to correct. I have never been in a relationship of any sort. Thank you but maybe you should spend some time in my shoes. I hear it from both sides. I am equally appalled at the militant gay agenda but I am disheartened by some on these forums who go to the extreme right in expecting even more than the Church expects.

 

[goofyjim]

Why is it that when one side of the political spectrum presents its statistics they are accused of skewing them to their outcome but the other side is never guilty of the same thing? This is why I don’t follow statisitics of any sort. Both sides can commit the same errors.

 

[Other_Eric]

I have nothing to correct. I have never been in a relationship of any sort. Thank you but maybe you should spend some time in my shoes. I hear it from both sides. I am equally appalled at the militant gay agenda but I am disheartened by some on these forums who go to the extreme right in expecting even more than the Church expects.

If your sexuality is disordered to the point where it runs completely counter to the Creator’s intention for it, then you do indeed have something to fix. I find it interesting that we, in this thread, are debating why it is that Christians are losing the cultural debate on same-sex attractions when the answer could hardly be better represented by those who do have same-sex attractions and obstinately refuse to admit that they have anything in themselves to fix. If the attractions have no need of being fixed, then they can’t really be disordered and therefore, expressing them genitally can contain no sin.

The old story about the man who drowns in a flood waiting for God to save him and thus refusing the aid of a boat and a helicopter applies here. People who refuse psychiatric healing for this disorder, irrespective of whatever “good reasons” their fallen intellects have developed, are refusing the help that God provides. Until more people realize this, the battle against the homosexual agenda will always be a losing one.

 

[pathia]

The old story about the man who drowns in a flood waiting for God to save him and thus refusing the aid of a boat and a helicopter applies here. People who refuse psychiatric healing for this disorder, irrespective of whatever “good reasons” their fallen intellects have developed, are refusing the help that God provides. Until more people realize this, the battle against the homosexual agenda will always be a losing one.

I assume you mean psychological healing, not psychiatric. Psychiatric help includes the aid of drugs and pharmacologicals. As far as I’m aware no drugs have ever cured or suppressed SSA.

Between my parents and myself, we have spend over $40,000 on many types of prayer, exorcism, therapy, drugs and aversion therapy for myself starting at the age of 13 and nothing worked. I was homeless multiple times during this due to me selling or simply falling off on rent due to the expenses.

In the end we simply accepted that this must be how God intended me to be, because we have literally tried everything under his sun.

 

[goofyjim]

If your sexuality is disordered to the point where it runs completely counter to the Creator’s intention for it, then you do indeed have something to fix. I find it interesting that we, in this thread, are debating why it is that Christians are losing the cultural debate on same-sex attractions when the answer could hardly be better represented by those who do have same-sex attractions and obstinately refuse to admit that they have anything in themselves to fix. If the attractions have no need of being fixed, then they can’t really be disordered and therefore, expressing them genitally can contain no sin.

The old story about the man who drowns in a flood waiting for God to save him and thus refusing the aid of a boat and a helicopter applies here. People who refuse psychiatric healing for this disorder, irrespective of whatever “good reasons” their fallen intellects have developed, are refusing the help that God provides. Until more people realize this, the battle against the homosexual agenda will always be a losing one.

There you go again. Just where do you propose the money comes from to pay these exorbitantly overpriced thrapists who admit only a third of those treated are successful? I suggest that while these desires are disordered God is not sitting up in the heavens holding it against us. Those of us who do not act on these desires but still have them will probably get to heaven just as well as those who expect the impossible here on earth.

 

[Other_Eric]

I assume you mean psychological healing, not psychiatric. Psychiatric help includes the aid of drugs and pharmacologicals. As far as I’m aware no drugs have ever cured or suppressed SSA.

You should do some reading on Depo Provera.

 

[blessedtoo]

I find it interesting that we, in this thread, are debating why it is that Christians are losing the cultural debate on same-sex attractions when the answer could hardly be better represented by those who do have same-sex attractions and obstinately refuse to admit that they have anything in themselves to fix.

I find it interesting that a self-described “lapsed Catholic” never misses an opportunity to misrepresent the Catholic position of SSA.

To the extent that a homosexual tendency or
inclination is not subject to one’s free will, one is not morally culpable for that tendency.
Although one would be morally culpable if one were voluntarily to entertain homosexual
temptations or to choose to act on them, simply having the tendency is not a sin. Consequently,
the Church does not teach that the experience of homosexual attraction is in itself sinful.

There is currently no scientific consensus on the cause of the homosexual inclination.17
There is no consensus on therapy. Some have found therapy helpful. Catholics who experience
homosexual tendencies and who wish to explore therapy should seek out the counsel and
assistance of a qualified professional who has preparation and competence in psychological
counseling and who understands and supports the Church’s teaching on homosexuality.
www.nccbuscc.org/dpp/Ministry.pdf ::

If a person with SSA is living chastely and upholding the teaching of the Church, they are under no obligation to seek “reparative therapy”. As the most recent Bishop’s document stated, it is up to the individual.

OtherEric, if you want to understand Catholic teaching, I suggest you read the Bishop’s Statement, especially the parts about ministering to homosexuals with the love of Christ.

 

[Other_Eric]

There you go again. Just where do you propose the money comes from to pay these exorbitantly overpriced thrapists who admit only a third of those treated are successful? I suggest that while these desires are disordered God is not sitting up in the heavens holding it against us. Those of us who do not act on these desires but still have them will probably get to heaven just as well as those who expect the impossible here on earth.

It never ceases to amaze me how much of an obstacle money is for you. Christ told the rich, young man to give up everything he had to follow Him. Christ called the disciples away from their livelihoods to follow Him. Financial stress does not exempt one from carrying the cross one is meant to carry. Do not settle for whatever loathsome state you find yourself in. The healing is there for those who are willing to work for it.

 

[pathia]

You should do some reading on Depo Provera.

Tried it personally, all it did was give me the beginnings of osteoporosis…at the age of 19.

It also made me extremely moody and depressed (Well, okay I was already that way, but it made it WORSE). A day after the second shot, I tried to commit suicide.

 

[pathia]

You should do some reading on Depo Provera.

Just a few more general comments. Anyone who has SSA combined with chromosome anomalies such as myself, chemical castration (which is what provera does) does nothing. My sex drive is already as low as it can go due to my extremely low testosterone level.

I am naturally castrated so to speak. If you were to check my unmedicated hormone levels, you’d think I’m a woman by my testosterone levels. My testosterone’s natural unmodified/unmedicated level is around that, and sometimes lower than, a ‘normal’ woman’s.

All I get out of provera is the negatives. Bone loss, jaw deformity, blood clots, high blood pressure and deep vein thrombosis, of which I ended up had when 20. All this while I am nowhere near overweight. I am 6’ and 145lbs.

If I included all the costs of the medical issues caused by my experimentation with depo, my ‘quest’ for curing my SSA would be over $200,000. Needless to say, most of that debt is still there as I only make minimum wage. I currently type these from my local library, until my fiance returns from Iraq, I live out of my car.

 

[Kendy]

There you go again. Just where do you propose the money comes from to pay these exorbitantly overpriced thrapists who admit only a third of those treated are successful? I suggest that while these desires are disordered God is not sitting up in the heavens holding it against us. Those of us who do not act on these desires but still have them will probably get to heaven just as well as those who expect the impossible here on earth.

Please, don’t pay attention to Other Eric. He’s just going to aggravate you. It’s not worth it.

Kendy