LOTH - Baptism of the Lord

[curlycool89]

Well, you can tell that celebrating the Baptism of the Lord on Monday was not foreseen by the rubrics (especially considering that they still say to skip this feast when Christmas is on Sunday and Epiphany is transferred to Sunday). Maybe someone with a St. Joseph’s Guide can clear this up for me (I haven’t had one since 2010, the only time you really need one is on confusing days like this).

For Daytime prayer tomorrow, the rubrics say to use the Psalms for Sunday Week III, unless it falls on January 7th in which case you take the Psalms from Sunday Week II.

So, when there’s confusion you can usually consult the online versions to see what they’re doing, but in this case they’re in conflict.
Divineoffice.org uses the Psalms from Sunday Week III (which I guess follows the rubric, but it’s not exactly Sunday).
iBreviary is using the Psalms from Monday Week I
Universalis (I know it’s not an official version, but it can be useful as sort of a guide) is also using Monday Week I.

Any opinions/solutions?

 

[porthos11]

Well, you can tell that celebrating the Baptism of the Lord on Monday was not foreseen by the rubrics (especially considering that they still say to skip this feast when Christmas is on Sunday and Epiphany is transferred to Sunday). Maybe someone with a St. Joseph’s Guide can clear this up for me (I haven’t had one since 2010, the only time you really need one is on confusing days like this).

For Daytime prayer tomorrow, the rubrics say to use the Psalms for Sunday Week III, unless it falls on January 7th in which case you take the Psalms from Sunday Week II.

So, when there’s confusion you can usually consult the online versions to see what they’re doing, but in this case they’re in conflict.
Divineoffice.org uses the Psalms from Sunday Week III (which I guess follows the rubric, but it’s not exactly Sunday).
iBreviary is using the Psalms from Monday Week I
Universalis (I know it’s not an official version, but it can be useful as sort of a guide) is also using Monday Week I.

Any opinions/solutions?

Better than consulting online versions is understanding the principles.

1. Baptism is a Feast.
2. Rubrics for Daytime Prayer says this: “Those who say only one of the three hours use the current psalmody even on feasts.”
3. Current psalmody is Week III. Reference: “The current psalmody is…taken from the cycle in the Psalter.”

Therefore, the psalmody for this year’s Baptism s Monday, Week III.

St. Joseph’s guide confirms: DP: p. 949.

 

[curlycool89]

Better than consulting online versions is understanding the principles.

1. Baptism is a Feast.
2. Rubrics for Daytime Prayer says this: “Those who say only one of the three hours use the current psalmody even on feasts.”
3. Current psalmody is Week III. Reference: “The current psalmody is…taken from the cycle in the Psalter.”

Therefore, the psalmody for this year’s Baptism s Monday, Week III.

St. Joseph’s guide confirms: DP: p. 949.

That was my thinking actually, Monday Week III, as it made the most sense. I just found it odd that nobody else seems to be following that.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

So they did not eliminate this feast alltogether this year?
Which is what I was told.

I give up on the craziness of post-1970 changes and celebrate Epiphany on the 6th and Theophany/Baptism of Our Lord on the 13th, the traditional dates.

However I celebrate the Benedictine Divine Office not the LOTH, as the Benedictine is less confusing and more traditional.

 

[porthos11]

So they did not eliminate this feast alltogether this year?
Which is what I was told.

I give up on the craziness of post-1970 changes and celebrate Epiphany on the 6th and Theophany/Baptism of Our Lord on the 13th, the traditional dates.

However I celebrate the Benedictine Divine Office not the LOTH, as the Benedictine is less confusing and more traditional.

The most recent legislation moves the Baptism to Monday following Epiphany if Epiphany falls on Jan 7 or 8. That the Baptism is omitted is obsolete.

There is no post1970-“craziness”. The liturgical rules are easy enough to follow in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite as I demonstrated earlier.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

I do not believe that the Bishops have an obligation to change the date for Epiphany and it’s Octave. It has been on these two dates there for over 1400 years. Epiphany itself 1600. I think it is a misunderstanding of the role of a bishop to believe that they have the authority to change these dates without all churches changing them, in an ecumenical council.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Now I’m confused.
In my shorter Christian Prayer, it says that if Epiphany falls on January 7 or January 8, then the Baptism of the Lord feast is omitted and we start with “Ordinary Time”. .

And people are saying ‘week 3 above’ but Universalis for the U.S. (Ascension on Thursday) calendar has tomorrow January 9 as the Baptism of the Lord and week 1, not week 3.

So is the coming week week 1 or week 3? I thought it would go to week 1 because starting with Tuesday we will be in the first week of ordinary time, right?

 

[curlycool89]

I do not believe that the Bishops have an obligation to change the date for Epiphany and it’s Octave. It has been on these two dates there for over 1400 years. Epiphany itself 1600. I think it is a misunderstanding of the role of a bishop to believe that they have the authority to change these dates without all churches changing them, in an ecumenical council.

The date has not changed, it is the observance that has changed (there is a difference).

Since Epiphany is a Holy Day of Obligation, the Bishops conferences of the US and Canada (the USCCB and the CCCB, and I’m probably missing others too) have chosen to transfer the observance in accordance with Canon 1246.2. This is to allow more people to observe it more fully as a Holy Day as many people still have to work on the traditional date of January 6th.

By the way, welcome to the Catholic Church! I’m excited to see the new Ordinariate in the US.

Now I’m confused.
In my shorter Christian Prayer, it says that if Epiphany falls on January 7 or January 8, then the Baptism of the Lord feast is omitted and we start with “Ordinary Time”. .

And people are saying ‘week 3 above’ but Universalis for the U.S. (Ascension on Thursday) calendar has tomorrow January 9 as the Baptism of the Lord and week 1, not week 3.

So is the coming week week 1 or week 3? I thought it would go to week 1 because starting with Tuesday we will be in the first week of ordinary time, right?

See, here’s the problem. According to the rubrics as they were written at the time the LOTH came out (mid-70s), if Christmas is on Sunday and you move the Epiphany to the next Sunday, you are suppose to omit the Baptism of the Lord. In Canada and the US though, they decided to celebrate the Baptism anyways on the Monday following the Epiphany (if you look at the General Calendar, today is actually the Baptism of the Lord).

The Baptism is the last day of the Christmas season, so it does make sense for it to use Week III (as we just did Week II last week). On Tuesday, we switch to the First Week in Ordinary Time and hence to Week I.

This only happens every half-dozen years or something like that, but when it does it’s confusing.

 

[porthos11]

Now I’m confused.
In my shorter Christian Prayer, it says that if Epiphany falls on January 7 or January 8, then the Baptism of the Lord feast is omitted and we start with “Ordinary Time”. .

And people are saying ‘week 3 above’ but Universalis for the U.S. (Ascension on Thursday) calendar has tomorrow January 9 as the Baptism of the Lord and week 1, not week 3.

So is the coming week week 1 or week 3? I thought it would go to week 1 because starting with Tuesday we will be in the first week of ordinary time, right?

The original poster raised the question because Epiphany was moved to Sunday in his area. In such areas:

• Monday, Jan 9th is the Feast of the Baptism, the last day of the Christmas season, and therefore the last day of the Psalter cycle begun with the first week of Advent. On Monday, it’s still Psalter, Week III.
• Tuesday, Jan 10th is the Tuesday of the First Week in Ordinary Time, and the Psalter reverts back to Week I.

In areas where Epiphany remains on Jan 6th, the Feast of the Baptism remains on Sunday, Jan 8th, and Ordinary Time begins Monday Jan 9th.

 

[porthos11]

I do not believe that the Bishops have an obligation to change the date for Epiphany and it’s Octave. It has been on these two dates there for over 1400 years. Epiphany itself 1600. I think it is a misunderstanding of the role of a bishop to believe that they have the authority to change these dates without all churches changing them, in an ecumenical council.

And maybe this may be rectified in the future, but things are as they are with the full authority of the Church, so there is nothing illicit going on here.

 

[AJV]

That was my thinking actually, Monday Week III, as it made the most sense. I just found it odd that nobody else seems to be following that.

It is Week I of Ordinary Time because we are in the first week of Ordinary Time. The psalter “restarts” from Week I.

As said previously, it is the ferial Psalmody because the Baptism is a feast.

 

[AJV]

Now I’m confused.
In my shorter Christian Prayer, it says that if Epiphany falls on January 7 or January 8, then the Baptism of the Lord feast is omitted and we start with “Ordinary Time”. .

And people are saying ‘week 3 above’ but Universalis for the U.S. (Ascension on Thursday) calendar has tomorrow January 9 as the Baptism of the Lord and week 1, not week 3.

So is the coming week week 1 or week 3? I thought it would go to week 1 because starting with Tuesday we will be in the first week of ordinary time, right?

Yes it is Week 1.

The rubric is very misleading - don’t know why they keep printing it in the newer books but I suppose that is because they can’t change anything, perhaps for copyright reasons. It is an older rubric that was deleted in 1977, when the Congregation for Divine Worship decreed that the Baptism should be celebrated on Monday whenever the Epiphany falls on the 7th or 8th instead of being omitted, as it was from 1970-1977.

 

[AJV]

The original poster raised the question because Epiphany was moved to Sunday in his area. In such areas:

• Monday, Jan 9th is the Feast of the Baptism, the last day of the Christmas season, and therefore the last day of the Psalter cycle begun with the first week of Advent. On Monday, it’s still Psalter, Week III.

It cannot be Psalter Week III because there is no underlying ferial day of the Christmas season that the Baptism overrides. The ferial day overridden by the Feast of the Baptism is the ferial Monday of Ordinary Time. Therefore, it is Psalter Week I.

 

[sungirl]

The St Joseph guide says Monday Week III (p. 949 for 4-volume version). It’s days like this that the St Joseph guide proves its worth to me!

 

[porthos11]

It cannot be Psalter Week III because there is no underlying ferial day of the Christmas season that the Baptism overrides. The ferial day overridden by the Feast of the Baptism is the ferial Monday of Ordinary Time. Therefore, it is Psalter Week I.

Nope, it’s Week III because we’re still in the Christmas Season and the Psalter is still on the same cycle begun in Advent. Ordinary Time has not started yet. The Psalter reset starts tomorrow, Tuesday Jan 10th. There will be no underlying ferial day because the Baptism was moved there by later legislation.

Point is, with the Baptism having been moved to Monday, the Christmas Season has been extended by one day and therefore the Psalter does not yet reset.

 

[AJV]

Nope, it’s Week III because we’re still in the Christmas Season and the Psalter is still on the same cycle begun in Advent. Ordinary Time has not started yet. The Psalter reset starts tomorrow, Tuesday Jan 10th. There will be no underlying ferial day because the Baptism was moved there by later legislation.

Point is, with the Baptism having been moved to Monday, the Christmas Season has been extended by one day and therefore the Psalter does not yet reset.

The rubric for feasts calls for the ferial psalmody to be used. Feasts use the ferial psalmody of the superceded weekday. The hymn &psalms don’t operate by themselves - they go in tandem with weekdays. One does not use the psalmody “of the Monday”, one uses the psalmody of “Monday in the X week of (season)” which then links to a particular psalm week, etc. There is no superceded weekday of the Christmas season, no Monday in the 3rd Week of Christmas, that the Baptism overrides. It is a weekday of Ordinary Time, Monday in the 1st Week of Ordinary Time, and it uses Psalm Week 1.

Both the Paulist Press “Order of Prayer” (which is pretty ubiquitous in sacristies in the US) and the Latin Ordo put out by Libreria Editrice Vaticana indicate that Psalm Week 1 is used for Daytime Prayer. In the Latin, it is even more obvious because the Ordo also indicates a change of hymn. I’m not sure why the St. Joseph’s guide indicates Psalm Week 3, but I would trust these since they are used by a number of churches and dioceses. Perhaps you could check the Ordo they use in Canada next time you go for Mass, and let us know what that says.

 

[curlycool89]

This is really why I asked the question, it’s because there’s so many sources so different things.

I admit, when I saw a few using Monday Week I it did make sense because we are back at Week I as of tomorrow (back in Ordinary Time). When someone said Week III it also made sense because this is the Last Feast of of the Christmas season.

I think if I had to choose between them, I’d choose treating it as the last part of Christmas (and therefore Monday Week III) simply because the Baptism is in the LOTH Volume I (for Christmas and Advent), not Volume III (for Ordinary Time Weeks 1-17), so liturgically it seems to belong to the Christmas season.

 

[porthos11]

This is really why I asked the question, it’s because there’s so many sources so different things.

I admit, when I saw a few using Monday Week I it did make sense because we are back at Week I as of tomorrow (back in Ordinary Time). When someone said Week III it also made sense because this is the Last Feast of of the Christmas season.

I think if I had to choose between them, I’d choose treating it as the last part of Christmas (and therefore Monday Week III) simply because the Baptism is in the LOTH Volume I (for Christmas and Advent), not Volume III (for Ordinary Time Weeks 1-17), so liturgically it seems to belong to the Christmas season.

I’m would have taken Monday Week III as well for much the same reason: Ordinary Time has not started yet. I didn’t get to pray Daytime Prayer today.

 

[curlycool89]

Ok, I think I found the rubric to support Monday Week III.

After Evening Prayer II for the Baptism, there is the following rubric:

After the feast of the Baptism of the Lord, Ordinary Time begins.

This seems to suggest that we are still in Christmas, and therefor the 4-week cycle would not reset until after the Baptism when Ordinary Time begins.

 

[porthos11]

Ok, I think I found the rubric to support Monday Week III.

After Evening Prayer II for the Baptism, there is the following rubric:

After the feast of the Baptism of the Lord, Ordinary Time begins.

This seems to suggest that we are still in Christmas, and therefor the 4-week cycle would not reset until after the Baptism when Ordinary Time begins.

That and the fact that we are using Volume I.