LOTH Irritation

  • Thread starter Thread starter bkovacs
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

bkovacs

Guest
What really irritates me about the Divine Office is a number of things.
  1. If you have a devotion to Benedictine Spirituality. You would want to recite the exact same Divine Office that a particular Abbey recites. But no you can’t. They say a completely different Office, which varies among Abbeys, then what the butchering Catholic Book Publishing company and the USCCB mandate. And Benedictines, themselves are no help. They just tell their Oblates, to use the Roman Office (Christian Prayer or Shorter Christian Prayer), by the dreadful ICEL.
  2. All that page flipping. I challenge any Catholic Abbey to come up with a very simple to use Divine Office that is complete, with no page flipping what so ever. An “approved” breviary that you use from page one and follow through to the next page. No flipping at all, and is written in a beautiful and graceful style. And “Non-Inclusive”.
  3. A publisher apart from the dreaded Catholic Book Publishing Company, which hasn’t innovated a single published document , since the 70’s. Look at the pictures in the CBPC NAB Bible. They look the same as they did in the 70’s. At least Benedict Press, has included some really nice work of art pictures for their new Bibles.
  4. So we have the Monastic Diunral. But it cost a fortune!. Make one that costs half the price. To compete price wise with Christian Prayer. Maybe use Bonded Leather for the cheaper one.
5.The LOTH is great, but the structure is a complete mess!. You can create a nice simple one with Gregorian Notation. It just takes effort on the part from the Abbeys and the USCCB.
  1. And one important final thing. This is directed straight at the USCCB. Don’t “COPYRIGHT HOLY SCRIPTURE”!. Like they plan to do with the Revised Grail Psalms. So they can sue anyone who violates their copy right. Plain you know what, considering that this is God’s Word were talking about. Not a fiction novel. You don’t “COPY RIGHT GODS WORD” no matter what the translation is. It should be all public domain.
Sorry for all my ranting!. Just plain irritated with the LOTH.
 
Dear Bkovacs,

If you want to recite the same office that a certain Benedictian Abbey uses, the best bet would be to ask for a copy of the breviary that they use. They will most likely be happy to provide you with a copy for a small contribution. OSB oblates have their own LOTH ; which is a shorter form, I do not remember the title right off hand, but I believe that it is published by St John’s Press. The other option would be the Benedictine Daily Prayer, A short Brievary. Or the Abbey Prayer Book by Fr Basil Pennington.

If the problem is just getting through the LOTH, I would suggest either of the following two books; Divine Office for Dodos by Madeline Nugent or Practical Guide for LOTH by Shirley Sullivan. The best way I found in getting the hang of the office is by doing it until it becomes natural and I find that it is always best to say it in communion vs. saying it alone.

Hope that helps,

Br Mark, OSB
 
If your aim is to pray the Office in the spirit of St. Benedict I urge you to combine your prayer with daily reading of the Holy Rule especially the sections referring to prayer, and don’t miss the chapter on grumbling.
 
bkovacs said:
What really irritates me about the Divine Office is a number of things.
  1. If you have a devotion to Benedictine Spirituality. You would want to recite the exact same Divine Office that a particular Abbey recites. But no you can’t. They say a completely different Office, which varies among Abbeys, then what the butchering Catholic Book Publishing company and the USCCB mandate. And Benedictines, themselves are no help. They just tell their Oblates, to use the Roman Office (Christian Prayer or Shorter Christian Prayer), by the dreadful ICEL.
***Liturgical Pressd has put out a one volume BENEDICTINE DAILY PRAYER. It publishes several other Benedictine prayer books you might want to check out.
  1. All that page flipping. I challenge any Catholic Abbey to come up with a very simple to use Divine Office that is complete, with no page flipping what so ever. An “approved” breviary that you use from page one and follow through to the next page. No flipping at all, and is written in a beautiful and graceful style. And “Non-Inclusive”.
***A no-flipping Breviary could be published, but it would be huge and expensive. As an example, Patmos has published an edition of Sunday Evening Prayer from LOTH. Just two pages per Sunday evening. No page flipping. Cost is $25. Now, $25 times 14 (seven Morning Prayers and seven Evening Prayers comes to $350.

***SACROS publishes a no-flipping Night Prayerbook for $18.00

***I have no idea how one could do the Office Of Readings.

***By the way, the old DIVINE OFFICE, pre-Vatican II, had as much, and maybe even more, page flipping. This is the nature of DIVINE OFFICES. Go the the Traditionalist forum and ask there
  1. A publisher apart from the dreaded Catholic Book Publishing Company, which hasn’t innovated a single published document , since the 70’s. Look at the pictures in the CBPC NAB Bible. They look the same as they did in the 70’s. At least Benedict Press, has included some really nice work of art pictures for their new Bibles.
***It has to do with money, and print run.
  1. So we have the Monastic Diunral. But it cost a fortune!. Make one that costs half the price. To compete price wise with Christian Prayer. Maybe use Bonded Leather for the cheaper one.
***I am not familiar with the Monastic Diunral. Link, please

5.The LOTH is great, but the structure is a complete mess!. You can create a nice simple one with Gregorian Notation. It just takes effort on the part from the Abbeys and the USCCB.

***Actually, the structure is well laid out. But if you are only looking for an excuse not to pray the LOTH, go ahead. But many of us THE DIVINE OFFICE FOR DODOS. DODOS = Devout Obediant Disciples of Our Savior. With a set of Restful Ribbons and Bouncing Bookmarks, you can learn to pray the LOTH like the Pope.
  1. And one important final thing. This is directed straight at the USCCB. Don’t “COPYRIGHT HOLY SCRIPTURE”!. Like they plan to do with the Revised Grail Psalms. So they can sue anyone who violates their copy right. Plain you know what, considering that this is God’s Word were talking about. Not a fiction novel. You don’t “COPY RIGHT GODS WORD” no matter what the translation is. It should be all public domain.
***Refer back to my comment on cost of printing and limited press runs.

Sorry for all my ranting!. Just plain irritated with the LOTH.

***I love it, and do five Offices. (I do only one Daytime Prayer, instead of three)

And I repeat, if you hate the current DIVINE OFFICE, you will find the pre-Vatican II version even worse. And that has EIGHT (8) Offices, not 5 or 7. You do all the Psalms in one week, rather then in 4 weeks.

But however you decide, you go with my best wishes, and a prayer that you will find a prayer program that works for you
Click to expand...
 
Well it looks like I have found the perfect replacement.
Just use The Psalter itself.
I will use it in the style of Byzantium

orthodoxwiki.org/Psalter

Kathismata

The Psalter is divided into 20 kathismata. Each kathisma is further divided into three stases. Each stasis contains between one and three chapters. The exception to this is Psalm 118. Due to its great length, this chapter constitutes the entire XVIIth Kathisma.

Each of the divine services contains fixed portions of the Psalter that are read or chanted each time the service is celebrated. In addition, certain services of the Daily Cycle contain prescribed kathisma readings. These prescribed readings rotate daily so that outside of Great Lent the Psalter is read through once in its entirety in a single week.

During the lenten fast, the kathisma readings are accelerated so that the Psalter is read through in its entirety twice each week.

Here is a great Psalter to use.
The Pocket Psalter by HTM.

bibledesignblog.com/2008/10/pocket-psalter.html

Thank God for Eastern Christianity!. Never thought about just the Psalter.👍
 
bkovacs said:
…
  1. If you have a devotion to Benedictine Spirituality. You would want to recite the exact same Divine Office that a particular Abbey recites. But no you can’t. And Benedictines, themselves are no help. They just tell their Oblates, to use the Roman Office (Christian Prayer or Shorter Christian Prayer), by the dreadful ICEL.
…
Click to expand...
+*I don’t know where you came across the information above . . . but it is false information . . *.

In relation to praying the Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours . . . there are actually many available breviaries permitted for legitimate use and used by the Christian faithful . . . please see the link below for a rather astonishingly complete listing of available materials . . .

:compcoff: Link: kellerbook.com/OVERVIEW.HTM

Re the Benedictine Order . . . in regard to versions of the . . . **Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours **. . . it is my understanding that Benedictines have an indult . . .
:coffeeread: INDULT . . .
Click to expand...
An indult in Catholic Canon Law is a permission, or privilege, granted by the competent church authority – the Holy See or the diocesan bishop … for an exception from a particular norm of church law in an individual case …
- Wickipedia​
Click to expand...
which allows organizations such as monasterys and abbeys to choose which versions of the Liturgy of the Hours/Divine Office they wish to use in their communities . . . and they vary greatly from community to community . . . so we actually are not all mandated to use the same material . . . the following general . . . moderate, gentle and wise . . . Order of Saint Benedict (OSB) . . . guidelines are given . . . *(of course individual abbeys/monasterys are allowed . . . ***and do **. . . freely add further recommendations to the below for their individual monasteries) . . .
The Order of Saint Benedict (OSB)
Guidelines for Oblates
Click to expand...
D. OBLATES STRIVE TO BE MEN AND WOMEN OF PRAYER . . .
Click to expand...
  1. *]
    They highly esteem the Eucharist
Click to expand...

  1. and take an active and intelligent part in the celebration of the sacred mysteries of the altar.
    *]They strive each day to pray some part of the Divine Office or Liturgy of the Hours, as the circumstances of their lives permit.
    *]They strive to appreciate the beauty and spiritual wealth contained in the Psalms which form the core of the Church’s prayer.
    *]They harmonize their private and public prayers and devotions with the liturgical seasons and feasts of the year, as Vatican II recommends.
Click to expand...


  1. :compcoff: Link: osb.org/obl/guidelns.html

    I kind of like to view all the various Biblical and Breviary materials like instruments available to play in an orchestra . . . which instruments are constructed by various people and organizations . . . some are of good materials . . . some . . . not . . . some led and inspired by the Holy Spirit . . . some . . . not . . . which makes some of the written materials instruments of considerably varying quality . . . and some really don’t follow the “notes” of the Church well . . . they range from some really not marvelous instruments . . . to some . . . really marvelous . . . ones like the 4 volume Liturgy of the Hours . . . but basically it all comes down to the holy reality of real prayer . . . I love the below quote from the “Little Flower” . . .

    :signofcross:
    "For me prayer is a surge of the heart, it is a simple look towards Heaven,
    it is a cry of recognition and of love, embracing both trial and joy."
    • Saint Therese of Lisieux
    We have great freedom as Christians and Catholics to choose what works for us re praying the Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours . . . you need to do further research and find which specific recommended form of the Church’s prayer speaks to your heart as one your soul is in harmony with . . .

    *Blessed Virgin Mary . . . Our Lady of Monte Cassino . . . please pray :gopray2: for us all . . . thank you Holy Mother of God . . . *

    :bible1:
    “This is the day which the LORD hath made;
    let us be glad and rejoice therein.”
    Psalm 118[117]: 24[23]

    . . . all for Jesus+
    . . . thank You Dear Lord+
    . . . thank you Holy Mother Mary+
    . . . thank you Blessed Holy Mother Church+
    . . . thank you Blessed St. Benedict+
    . . . St. Bernard of Clairvaux please pray for us+    ​
 
bkovacs said:
Well it looks like I have found the perfect replacement.
Just use The Psalter itself.
I will use it in the style of Byzantium

orthodoxwiki.org/Psalter

Kathismata

The Psalter is divided into 20 kathismata. Each kathisma is further divided into three stases. Each stasis contains between one and three chapters. The exception to this is Psalm 118. Due to its great length, this chapter constitutes the entire XVIIth Kathisma.

Each of the divine services contains fixed portions of the Psalter that are read or chanted each time the service is celebrated. In addition, certain services of the Daily Cycle contain prescribed kathisma readings. These prescribed readings rotate daily so that outside of Great Lent the Psalter is read through once in its entirety in a single week.

During the lenten fast, the kathisma readings are accelerated so that the Psalter is read through in its entirety twice each week.

Here is a great Psalter to use.
The Pocket Psalter by HTM.

bibledesignblog.com/2008/10/pocket-psalter.html

Thank God for Eastern Christianity!. Never thought about just the Psalter.👍
Click to expand...
It is not just Eastern Christianity.:dts:

Psalters that cram all 150 Psalms into a weekly reader have been around for centuries. Here is one for sale today.:yup:

catholicfreeshipping.com/Products/cfs_mydapsboarby.html

Yup, has all 150 Psalms, arranged to be read in one week.:gopray2:

Each of the seven days has eight offices; Matins, Lauds, Prime, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers, and Compline.:highprayer:

In a pocket size, easy to read, and economical format. You can thank me later:rolleyes:
 
bkovacs said:
What really irritates me about the Divine Office is a number of things.
  1. If you have a devotion to Benedictine Spirituality. You would want to recite the exact same Divine Office that a particular Abbey recites. But no you can’t. They say a completely different Office, which varies among Abbeys, then what the butchering Catholic Book Publishing company and the USCCB mandate. And Benedictines, themselves are no help. They just tell their Oblates, to use the Roman Office (Christian Prayer or Shorter Christian Prayer), by the dreadful ICEL.
  2. All that page flipping. I challenge any Catholic Abbey to come up with a very simple to use Divine Office that is complete, with no page flipping what so ever. An “approved” breviary that you use from page one and follow through to the next page. No flipping at all, and is written in a beautiful and graceful style. And “Non-Inclusive”.
  3. A publisher apart from the dreaded Catholic Book Publishing Company, which hasn’t innovated a single published document , since the 70’s. Look at the pictures in the CBPC NAB Bible. They look the same as they did in the 70’s. At least Benedict Press, has included some really nice work of art pictures for their new Bibles.
  4. So we have the Monastic Diunral. But it cost a fortune!. Make one that costs half the price. To compete price wise with Christian Prayer. Maybe use Bonded Leather for the cheaper one.
5.The LOTH is great, but the structure is a complete mess!. You can create a nice simple one with Gregorian Notation. It just takes effort on the part from the Abbeys and the USCCB.
  1. And one important final thing. This is directed straight at the USCCB. Don’t “COPYRIGHT HOLY SCRIPTURE”!. Like they plan to do with the Revised Grail Psalms. So they can sue anyone who violates their copy right. Plain you know what, considering that this is God’s Word were talking about. Not a fiction novel. You don’t “COPY RIGHT GODS WORD” no matter what the translation is. It should be all public domain.
Sorry for all my ranting!. Just plain irritated with the LOTH.
Click to expand...
Hello!
  1. I too have an interest in Benedictine Spirituality. Your right, each monastery usually has its own Divine Office. My best advice to you for this is to if you can try to find the version they use, ask to buy the version or just do what they say? I use the Monastic Diurnal myself and I love it.
  2. That would be nice, but it just doesn’t work that way. It would make the book so huge! In the LOTH (four volume) it has the ordinary. If you printed the instructions for each office at the end of each office it would pile up! Not to mention placing the Canticles for Lauds and Vespers in each office for each day. They do the page flipping so you can actually hold the book in your hand. Unless you want a huge book the page flipping is the answer. just get yourself a good set of ribbons! 🙂
  3. Yes it does, but it also is very nice and worth it. I bought it and am so happy I did. Maybe they will but why would they when it is not used around the world as the Liturgical Prayer of the Church whereas the Liturgy of the Hours (four volume etc.) is.
  4. Maybe, but if it is so simple shouldn’t you try it? It takes a lot of effort to do that, just try hand writing Gregorian Notation all day or trying to create it in a program. It would be nice to have that and actually they do have that for the office of vespers. Its called the Monastic Vesperal.
The Monastic Diurnal is step in price but its well worth it. If you want to pray the Divine Office like St. Benedict set it up it is the way to go. You could try to find a used copy as well on ebay. Or you could use the Benedictine Daily Prayer Book. I haven’t used it but I heard it is around.

Hope this helps in some way! 🤷
 
Sacredheart1208 said:
Epic fail:) I guess it’s time to I vest in a good pair of glasses…:dancing::dancing::dancing:
Click to expand...
Not a problem, at all. Your answer was thoughtful and well reasoned. I only mentioned it because I didn’t want you waiting for an answer. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top