Loth questions esp. about calendar and monk prayer

[krayzevuze]

hello all.

1. is it possible to pray the liturgy and go to the latin mass? I know the calendars are different and was more wondering not about it being physically possible, but if it causes any weirdness and spiritual agitation being split between a calendar you use for worshiping the eucharist and one you use for praying in the book. if you have experiences with this and if it was weird or off, or maybe a way to overcome it, please answer.

I just began saying some of the hours because divineoffice opened registration, I thought it was the roman breviary but it isnt, although I like it anyway and I think I 'll be able to say all of the hours, even with other devotions one day.

1. do hymns have to be sung? Im bad at singing and Jesus didn’t give me a good voice, so it is kind of weird.
2. I know there is a monastic loth going about (not the old latin one, although I’ll probably buy that one one day too, there is a $45 one online if you look at the right site for a farnborough diurnal). good editions for that? links? Is the psalm order still like Benedict arranged it? I think I’d like praying that, since it’s really old, even older than the roman breviary order and this modern loth
3. other than reading it straight through as you pray, are there any special things to do when praying the hours? I mean symbols from the text, extra repeating other than what is written, rubrics, etc. Or is the order given on the page enough?

thank you all.

 

[InThePew]

is it possible to pray the liturgy and go to the latin mass? I know the calendars are different and was more wondering not about it being physically possible, but if it causes any weirdness and spiritual agitation being split between a calendar you use for worshiping the eucharist and one you use for praying in the book.

Sure. Does it cause weirdness? Maybe; but then I know people who go between the Latin mass and regular mass. That’s not to say some confsuion doesn’t arise but I doubt that it’s that big a deal.

do hymns have to be sung? Im bad at singing and Jesus didn’t give me a good voice, so it is kind of weird.

Whether the hymn is strictly part of the office is debatable, but since you’re doing it as a private devotion and aren’t under any obligation then it’s entirely a matter for you.

I know there is a monastic loth going about ( not the old latin one, although I’ll probably buy that one one day too, there is a $45 one online if you look at the right site for a farnborough diurnal). good editions for that? links? Is the psalm order still like Benedict arranged it?

You’d probably be better off directing that question to a Benedictine abbey unless there’s any third-order benedictines on the forum who can answer. Again though, given it’s a private devotion, if you want to use a monastic breviary then go right ahead.

other than reading it straight through as you pray, are there any special things to do when praying the hours? I mean symbols from the text, extra repeating other than what is written, rubrics, etc. Or is the order given on the page enough?

I’m not sure what you mean by this. There are rubrics for Sundays, for example, which appear on the first Sunday of the four week Psalter (at least in the secular breviary) which aren’t repeated throughout even though they apply. Aside from that, some general points: you should start the first office of the day with the invitatory psalm and antiphon, the Te Deum is said on Sundays and other solemnities and feasts; and you make the sign of the cross at the start of each of the gospel canticles (Benedictus, Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis). There are a few other things besides this but if you read the General Introduction to the breviary that should about cover it.

 

[krayzevuze]

thank you for answering. the last question I meant, other than when things like antiphons are written, do I have to say them else where, or does this:

By his own power Christ raised up the temple of his body when it had been destroyed in death. With joy let us ask him:
Lord, share with us the fruits of your victory.

Christ our Savior, when you rose again you brought to the holy women and the apostles the joyful news of a world redeemed,
— make us witnesses to your risen life.
Lord, share with us the fruits of your victory.

You promised to all people that we would rise up again to newness of life,
— make us heralds of your Gospel.
Lord, share with us the fruits of your victory.

You showed yourself to your apostles and breathed the Holy Spirit on them,
— renew in us the presence of the same creator Spirit.
Lord, share with us the fruits of your victory.

You promised to be with your disciples to the end of the world,
— stay with us today, and remain with us always.
Lord, share with us the fruits of your victory.

(the lines) mean to repeat anymore than where it says to? what is on the page for that day is what is to be read, straight through with no additions I have to be mindful for that are unwritten. but you answered it anyway, I didnt know about the crossing,I’ll read the general introduction, thank you very much

 

[TomH1]

is it possible to pray the liturgy and go to the latin mass?

I think it is very important to use terminology correctly. Of course, liturgy means all public worship but you meant the Liturgy of the Hours (LTOH), which is also known as the Divine Office or the Canonical Hours. The Mass can be celebrated in Latin in the Ordinary Form. If you want to refer to the Mass in the Extraordinary Form (EF) that is what I would cal it. You can also call it the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) or the Usus antiquor.

I am sure you could say the LTOH in the ordinary form and go to an EF Mass. Even if you stuck to the same form the Divine Office and Mass are not always of the same office on a given day.

do hymns have to be sung? Im bad at singing and Jesus didn’t give me a good voice, so it is kind of weird.

Ultimately, that is what they are for but in private recitation I do not believe it is necessary. I do not and cannot sing. I think I would offend God if I sang the hymns. I know my singing offends everybody else.

I know there is a monastic loth going about ( not the old latin one, although I’ll probably buy that one one day too, there is a $45 one online if you look at the right site for a farnborough diurnal). good editions for that? links? Is the psalm order still like Benedict arranged it? I think I’d like praying that, since it’s really old, even older than the roman breviary order and this modern loth

@OraLabora has not come along an answered this question yet. I hope he will. he is our resident expert on the monastic Divine Office. However, I’ll have a stab at a temporary answer until he does. After Vatican II monasteries devised their own Office and a great variety of liturgical praxis exists. The Benedictine Confederation published something called the Thesaurus Liturgiae Horarum Monasticae and that has a Directory and Directive Norms. The Thesaurus only exists in Latin but the latter two are available in an out of print book called the Monastic Hours. However, these do not constitute a liturgical book. They are a set of guidelines to help monasteries in devising their own Office.

 

[OraLabora]

I know there is a monastic loth going about ( not the old latin one, although I’ll probably buy that one one day too, there is a $45 one online if you look at the right site for a farnborough diurnal). good editions for that? links? Is the psalm order still like Benedict arranged it? I think I’d like praying that, since it’s really old, even older than the roman breviary order and this modern loth

There are 4 monastic schemas for the Monastic Liturgy of the Hours that are in the 1977 Thesaurus. Schema A is basically the schema of St. Benedict, but with options to redistribute the psalms of Prime if Prime is not said. The two abbeys I know that do this, distribute them to the other minor hours. The other three schemas are B, C and D. B recites the entire psalter in 1 week so is basically like the pre-Conciliar Roman Office. The other two are on two-week cycles. Schema B does also have some 2-week variants permitted by the Thesaurus. The abbey I’m oblate of used B, on a one-week cycle.

The diurnal you are speaking of would be the day hours of the pre-Conciliar Office, which normally is prayed in Latin only (but you can have a translation alongside).

Yes the original Benedictine schema is the oldest breviary in licit use by the Church. It is 15 centuries old. In contrast, the Roman Breviary is only 110 years old. The LOTH is newer still.

The whole Office can be recited aloud, read quietly, or sung (if you can).

I usually use the modern Liturgy of the Hours but sung in Latin Gregorian chant. It’s just the right length for a layman who “has a life” (ditto for busy diocesan clergy). For monks, the Divine Office is their principle “job” as it were so they devote a lot of time to it, at our abbey about 3.5-4.5 hours a day of pew/stall time depending on whether it’s an ordinary day, feast, etc. I do sometimes use our abbey’s schema.

You would probably benefit from someone teaching you how to pray the LOTH. The principles and structure are the same whether you use monastic or secular Offices. There are some variations on the placement of the hymn for Lauds and Vespers in both pre-Conciliar offices, and the modern monastic Office allows the older option to be used. What page order you use will depend on the layout of the book(s) you are using.

As someone who has prayed the Office for the better part of 20 years, I strongly recommend starting with the modern Liturgy of the Hours. If you try to start with the monastic office, you will get frustrated very rapidly and risk dropping the practice altogether. Start slow and get used the structure with Lauds and Vespers, and perhaps Compline. Build it into a daily habit, and then if you are comfortable and have the time, add the two remaining offices (mid-day and readings). You can also do the other two minor hours if you really want to pile it on, using the complimentary psalter. The latter’s choice of psalms are rooted in the ancient monastic tradition of using the Gradual Psalms at the minor hours (there’s a lot of hidden tradition in the modern LOTH).

 

[porthos11]

In short.

Yes, you can pray the Liturgy of the Hours and attend the Traditional Latin Mass. The calendars won’t sync, but that’s not a problem. Just follow the calendar for each. That’s what I do.

No, hymns do not need to be sung, but they are not to be omitted. If you cannot sing them, recite them.

@OraLabora is the best resource for all things Monastic Office.

Not sure what you mean by #4.

 

[gotDoug]

1. other than reading it straight through as you pray, are there any special things to do when praying the hours? I mean symbols from the text, extra repeating other than what is written, rubrics, etc. Or is the order given on the page enough?

Nope. I am not sure if you are praying via an online website or using the 4-volume set. The online sites, such as DivineOffice or iBreviary, have everything you need, at least when I last used them. I believe there are no extra things that need to be done with the four-volume set, aside from page flipping, between the Ordinary, the Psalter, and the Proper of Seasons. There is an Ordinary in them which tells you the rubrics in exact detail. In regards to special rubrics, at communal celebrations in a Church , there are additional rubrics such as standing for the introduction and hymn and Gospel Canticle. However, there rubrics are not required at all for private recitation. I only follow those additional rubrics for solemnities, to make my LOTH feel more solemn. Those additional rubrics are outlined in the General Instructions:

263. All taking part stand during:

a. the introduction to the office and the introductory verses of each hour;

b. the hymn;

c. the gospel canticle;

d. the intercessions, the Lord's Prayer, and the concluding prayer.

264. All sit to listen to the readings, except the gospel.

265. The assembly either sits or stands, depending on custom, while the psalms and other canticles (with their antiphons) are being said.

266. All make the sign of the cross, from forehead to breast and from left shoulder to right, at:

a. the beginning of the hours, when God, come to my assistance is being said;

b. the beginning of the gospel, the Canticles of Zechariah, of Mary, and of Simeon.

The sign of the cross is made on the mouth at the beginning of the invitatory, at Lord, open my lips.

For more information and details, I recommend looking at the General Instructions. Here is one link:

General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours (2 February 1971) | EWTN

 

[InThePew]

(the lines) mean to repeat anymore than where it says to? what is on the page for that day is what is to be read, straight through with no additions I have to be mindful for that are unwritten.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re asking about the responses to the intercession prayers and short responsory. Basically where you see the funny looking “℟” it indicates that you should say/repeat the response (whcih is itself normally specified after that symbol the first time it appears). The electronic versions usually set this out in full whereas the printed version doesn’t probably in order to save space.

 

[krayzevuze]

As someone who has prayed the Office for the better part of 20 years, I strongly recommend starting with the modern Liturgy of the Hours. If you try to start with the monastic office, you will get frustrated very rapidly and risk dropping the practice altogether. Start slow and get used the structure with Lauds and Vespers, and perhaps Compline. Build it into a daily habit, and then if you are comfortable and have the time, add the two remaining offices (mid-day and readings). You can also do the other two minor hours if you really want to pile it on, using the complimentary psalter. The latter’s choice of psalms are rooted in the ancient monastic tradition of using the Gradual Psalms at the minor hours (there’s a lot of hidden tradition in the modern LOTH).

i will do this, thank you, building up. 20 years is a lot! God reveals so much through his prayers

Nope. I am not sure if you are praying via an online website or using the 4-volume set. The online sites, such as DivineOffice or iBreviary, have everything you need, at least when I last used them. I believe there are no extra things that need to be done with the four-volume set, aside from page flipping, between the Ordinary, the Psalter, and the Proper of Seasons. There is an Ordinary in them which tells you the rubrics in exact detail. In regards to special rubrics, at communal celebrations in a Church , there are additional rubrics such as standing for the introduction and hymn and Gospel Canticle. However, there rubrics are not required at all for private recitation. I only follow those additional rubrics for solemnities, to make my LOTH feel more solemn. Those additional rubrics are outlined in the General Instructions:

i am online, it has everything, thank you. I’ll have a look at this instruction

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re asking about the responses to the intercession prayers and short responsory. Basically where you see the funny looking “℟” it indicates that you should say/repeat the response (whcih is itself normally specified after that symbol the first time it appears). The electronic versions usually set this out in full whereas the printed version doesn’t probably in order to save space.

yes, this was it also, thank you.

Thank you all and God bless