LOTH

[hilde_the_dog]

I recite/pray the LOTH every day and enjoy it. But sometimes some things in the Intercessions just don’t seem to make sense. I recite the evening prayer at lunch while at work most days and for the Intercession for this evening the last “request” is "Through your Son you promised to raise men up on the Last Day - do not forget those who have died."

Seriously, who wrote that and did they think God would forget those who have died? If they did they were heretical? Does God forget? No another statement of a heretic. Does the Church ever go back and tweek some of these things? I mean for the prayer of the universal Catholic Church it seems confusing.

 

[Bergon]

I recite/pray the LOTH every day and enjoy it. But sometimes some things in the Intercessions just don’t seem to make sense. I recite the evening prayer at lunch while at work most days and for the Intercession for this evening the last “request” is "Through your Son you promised to raise men up on the Last Day - do not forget those who have died."

Seriously, who wrote that and did they think God would forget those who have died? If they did they were heretical? Does God forget? No another statement of a heretic. Does the Church ever go back and tweek some of these things? I mean for the prayer of the universal Catholic Church it seems confusing.

I’m not sure I can see anything wrong with it. It is a supplication made by us mere mortals. In the Lord’s Prayer we ask God to lead us not into temptation but of course God would never do that.

 

[porthos11]

Using anthropomorphic language to pray to God does not automatically make one a heretic.

Think: What’s does “do not forget” mean? It’s simply another way of asking God to remember. However, God never forgets, and he knows all things, so why bother asking?Moreover, Scripture itself has multiple instances of man asking God to remember him. Why ask, when God always remembers? Because asking God to remember is a way of either asking God to expedite what we’re asking for, or that we would not fall away from his grace. With that last intercession, we are simply asking God to speed up the suffering of the souls in Purgatory.

 

[bben15]

During the Mass, we ask God to “remember those who have fallen asleep, in hope of the resurrection.” God doesn’t forget the dead, so why ask him? Same thing here. We are asking God to have mercy on the dead.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

A new edition is supposedly on its way.

I hope that they either

1. have better Psalm Prayers (most are just plain awful-makes me glad that they are not required)

or, even better,

1. eliminate them all together (I understand that other countries don’t have them)

 

[agnes_therese]

A new edition is supposedly on its way.

I hope that they either

1. have better Psalm Prayers (most are just plain awful-makes me glad that they are not required)

or, even better,

1. eliminate them all together (I understand that other countries don’t have them)

Yes, but don’t hold your breath. It won’t be in the next year or two. We have plenty of time to save up for our new books!

 

[Neofight]

A new edition is supposedly on its way.

I hope that they either

1. have better Psalm Prayers (most are just plain awful-makes me glad that they are not required)

or, even better,

1. eliminate them all together (I understand that other countries don’t have them)

Eliminate or change to something of our liking? Sounds awful close to Cafeteria Catholicism to me.

 

[bsroufek]

According to St. Anne Catherine Emmerich, Abraham and the patriarchs used to put the bones of Adam on the altar in order to remind God of His promise.

Actually, in the OT, God encourages those who constantly remind Him of His promises, never giving Him rest.

 

[OraLabora]

The last intention at the intercessions of Evening Prayer is always for the dead.

When there were no intercessions pre-Vatican II for the most part, the intention was after the Benedicamus Domino: Fidelium animae per misericordiam Dei resquescant in pace. This has been replaced by the last intention at Vespers.

In some monasteries (including the one I’m associated with) they still make that invocation after the Benedicamus Domino for certain Offices (Vigils and the minor hours, but not Vespers since the last intercession is always for the dead).

As for the psalm prayers, they’re not required. In my French LOTH they are absent, in my French Monastic LOTH used by our abbey, they are present, but never used.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Eliminate or change to something of our liking? Sounds awful close to Cafeteria Catholicism to me.

It might, but it isn’t.

The Psalm Prayers are not required. Also, see OraLabora’s response.

I can vouch that he is one of the most knowledgeable posters on CAF with regard to the LotH.

 

[porthos11]

Eliminate or change to something of our liking? Sounds awful close to Cafeteria Catholicism to me.

The Psalm-prayers have always been optional.

 

[agnes_therese]

Eliminate or change to something of our liking? Sounds awful close to Cafeteria Catholicism to me.

We’re talking about an optional part of a liturgical office. That’s hardly the same as picking and choosing what dogma to believe.
If you like the psalm prayers, use them. But we’re not required to.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

Thank you for your replies - I was out of town on the Shenandoah River with no modern communication and could not read this thread until now. I enjoy hearing your perspectives. I guess in some ways it is good that it makes me think “Why?” Hey at least I’m paying attention and thinking about what I’m reading.

 

[drforjc]

It might, but it isn’t.

The Psalm Prayers are not required. Also, see OraLabora’s response.

I can vouch that he is one of the most knowledgeable posters on CAF with regard to the LotH.

My recollection is that they will be eliminated. I will hunt around and see if I can verify that.

 

[drforjc]

Found it. Not an official source, but from someone who watched the USCCB proceedings on the matter:

catholicexchange.com/new-breviary-project-approved-by-bishops/2/

-eliminate the psalm prayers. I know some people will miss these. I believe that with a little instruction on interpreting the psalms, anyone can quickly learn to see the christological meanings in them on their own, and can then reflect in silence on these meanings, rather than rely on the psalm prayers

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

I recite/pray the LOTH every day and enjoy it. But sometimes some things in the Intercessions just don’t seem to make sense. I recite the evening prayer at lunch while at work most days and for the Intercession for this evening the last “request” is "Through your Son you promised to raise men up on the Last Day - do not forget those who have died."

Seriously, who wrote that and did they think God would forget those who have died? If they did they were heretical? Does God forget? No another statement of a heretic. Does the Church ever go back and tweek some of these things? I mean for the prayer of the universal Catholic Church it seems confusing.

Such language also makes me uncomfortable. I think it would have a better nuance if we ask God to please remember so-and-so rather than don’t forget so-and so although the two mean basically the same thing.

Another prayer that I don’t know what to do with was from Week I Sunday Evening Prayer 1 which says:

Reward all who have done good to us, Lord, and grant them eternal life.

I’m grateful for all who have done good to us, but is that sufficient for them to gain eternal life?

 

[porthos11]

Such language also makes me uncomfortable. I think it would have a better nuance if we ask God to please remember so-and-so rather than don’t forget so-and so although the two mean basically the same thing.

Another prayer that I don’t know what to do with was from Week I Sunday Evening Prayer 1 which says:

Reward all who have done good to us, Lord, and grant them eternal life.

I’m grateful for all who have done good to us, but is that sufficient for them to gain eternal life?

No, it’s not. But you are asking God to grant them eternal life, and there is nothing heterodox about that. You are praying for your benefactors’ salvation, which is what you are supposed to do.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Such language also makes me uncomfortable. I think it would have a better nuance if we ask God to please remember so-and-so rather than don’t forget so-and so although the two mean basically the same thing.

The language is no worse than the Bible, which speaks of God repenting and changing his mind. The fact is that it’s not really possible to use language that does justice to God, so what we say is imperfect in varying degrees. I think asking God “not to forget” seems to be less in the sense of the memory of the dead passing from the mind of God, and more the sense of asking God to protect them and remember their faith rather than abandoning them to hell. If this kind of language bothers you, please never open up the Psalms.

Another prayer that I don’t know what to do with was from Week I Sunday Evening Prayer 1 which says:

Reward all who have done good to us, Lord, and grant them eternal life.

I’m grateful for all who have done good to us, but is that sufficient for them to gain eternal life?

No, someone doing good to you is not sufficient for their salvation, but the prayer never says it is. We pray all the time for the salvation of heathens, heretics and all sorts of people who probably will never be saved, but that does not mean that we should not pray for them. We pray for them not on the basis of their works, but of God’s grace. Neither does the prayer say that we expect God to grant eternal life to those who have done good to us on the basis that they have done good to us, but rather that he grant eternal life to those who have happened to do good to us. After all, if they do good for us, the. They are our friends, and even publicans return the love of their friends. Surely we should behave no worse than publicans.

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

The language is no worse than the Bible, which speaks of God repenting and changing his mind. The fact is that it’s not really possible to use language that does justice to God, so what we say is imperfect in varying degrees. I think asking God “not to forget” seems to be less in the sense of the memory of the dead passing from the mind of God, and more the sense of asking God to protect them and remember their faith rather than abandoning them to hell. If this kind of language bothers you, please never open up the Psalms.

I’m very familiar with the language of the Psalms and it does not bother me, thank you.

The Bible passages in some English Bible translations which mention God repenting and changing his mind were probably much easier to swallow in the original language and culture.

But God is God and does as he pleases, as the Psalm says. So I will not complain about the way Holy Scripture is worded. But people are merely people and ought to make an effort to avoid putting up new obstacles when they create new prayers.

 

[anruari]

A new edition is supposedly on its way.

I hope that they either

1. have better Psalm Prayers (most are just plain awful-makes me glad that they are not required)

or, even better,

1. eliminate them all together (I understand that other countries don’t have them)

I saw a book by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and Bl. Pope Jhon Paul II which was a book of prayers and meditations on the Psalms of Evening prayer. There is an accompanying volume containing prayers and meditations on the Psalms and Canticles of Mornign Prayer by Pope John Paul II.
i.e. it is a separate book of Psalm Prayers.
YOu could look it up.

As it is based on the wednesday General Audiences of the 2 Popes from around the time of the change of papacy you should be able to download the text for each audience direct from the Vatican Website.

Here’s links:
amazon.com/Psalms-Canticles-Meditations-Catechesis-Morning/dp/1568545568

catholicgifts.co.nz/beatification-of-jpii/~id/818/name/psalms-and-canticles-2/