Lots of anger on this forum

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Well, it seems that a lot of my posts go unanswered, so I am quite sure that I am guilty of everything that has been mentioned here. For that, I am sorry and humbled.

God Bless

Jon Winterburn
 
Well, it seems that a lot of my posts go unanswered, so I am quite sure that I am guilty of everything that has been mentioned here. For that, I am sorry and humbled.
No, Jon, you couldn’t have been guilty of everything that has been mentioned here. If you had, you definitely would have gotten more replies to your posts! 😃
 
I agree with a lot of what has been said so far. As a PP said, this forum (or any forum) is flawed in that you cannot get a tone from a person and know exactly where they are coming from. It pains me when others here call someone names. Sometimes that it comes across loud and clear that a poster is being uncharitable.

When I get offended or feel that someone is being uncharitable, I usually excuse myself without a big fuss. I’ll unsubscribe from the thread and do my best to avoid the situation. I don’t know that there is anything else that can be done. We all have strong opinions. It’s really because we’re all so smart. One can’t put that many intelligent, strong-minded people in one place with out the inevitable argument.

My biggest complaint is that I’ll post a question with the desire to learn more. Then I get posters telling me how I should even do this or that because of various reasons. That’s great, but that’s not what I asked. I seem to only get a response when I say something that is “wrong” in someone else’s mind. At the urging of another poster, I take the lack of response as a positive thing. It means that people generally agree with what I say. Who knows if it’s true, but it makes me feel rosy!
 
Not sure if this is the right place for this post, but it’s where I see this most often, so …
There seems to be A LOT of anger on this forum. A lot of judgmental statements - about both “liberals” and “conservatives” - a lot of hysterical “how could you POSSIBLY think that”, a lot of statements that demean others and fail to see the human suffering and hurt behind the abstract questions we’re debating.
Is this really the way Jesus would want us to talk to each other? Yes, admonishing the sinner is corporal work of mercy. But I think that all of us here are trying sincerely to understand very complicated moral issues. We’re groping toward God the best we know how.
Jesus, please help us to see You in all the people we meet - both in person and in the virtual world.
If I may add my two cents here, I believe that many people come to CAF with anger toward the Church. This is not typical of this sub-forum alone. Take a tour of the Traditional Catholicism sub-forum if you want to see anger to the point that the integrity of the Church’s leadership is called into question or attacked or the Liturgy sub-forum.

I am reminded of St. Bonaventure, a man of great intelligence and capable of great rational thinking, gifted with deep theological knowledge. Yet, he lays his gifts at the feet of St. Francis when he joins the Franciscans. The great Cardinal Bonaventure submits to the humble lay brother from Assisi. The brother becomes Father Francis and the Cardinal becomes Brother Bonaventure.

Later Bonaventure picks up his tools again, but this time to serve the Lord Jesus according the path that Francis lays out for him, rather than the one that he originally opined.

Herein lays the difference between many of us (me included) on CAF and the great saints. They were able to lay aside their opinions and open themselves to the guidance of the Holy Spirit as communicated through the Church, even the least intelligent and the most sinful members of the Church. If we stop, we will recall that Francis and Bonaventure lived during the reign of Pope Honorius, who managed to get into a few scrapes. However, neither of them would surrender their humility to protect their opinion. They opted to lay aside their opinions and humbly follow the Church. They separated Church authority from human sinfulness. This is the height of wisdom.

St. Bonaventure, speaking of his father, Francis of Assisi, described the Christian life as the ability to put aside all the other virtues for the sake of the jewel of holiness, humility and total detachment from one’s opinion. Francis summarized this way of living as a marriage between the individual and Holy Poverty as practiced by Christ on the Cross. Humility is the great jewel on the marriage ring.

These two great men do not mean that we should not have opinions. What they teach is that our opinions do not glorify God, our humility does. True humility involves obedience and openness to God’s voice, even if he speaks to us through someone else who is different.

I can’t think of two men more different than Francis and Bonaventure. While Francis followed Christ through literal interpretation of scripture, Bonaventure followed him through reason. Eventually, Bonaventure heard Francis’ perspective and was willing to give up reason. However, Francis encouraged him to use reason to explain his (Francis’) intimate experience with the Gospel.

This is the kind of exchange that we are lacking here and the absence of this type of humility frustrates.
I believe that unless we detach from our opinions, confrontations are going to be inevitable. Confrontations are usually a defense of pride and pride precedes the fall. To have an opinion is human. To attach oneself to one’s opinion without listening to that of others with humility may lead to spiritual pride, not truth. However, as Francis and Bonaventure teach us through their lives, when one detaches from one’s opinions, he or she becomes open to hear the voice of God

JR 🙂
 
This is the kind of exchange that we are lacking here and the absence of this type of humility frustrates.

I believe that unless we detach from our opinions, confrontations are going to be inevitable. Confrontations are usually a defense of pride and pride precedes the fall. To have an opinion is human. To attach oneself to one’s opinion without listening to that of others with humility may lead to spiritual pride, not truth.
I think Nicolep and you are both correct. We tend to post in reaction to messages we disagree with and we carry into the forums the contentious spirit of the outside world. I know I have been surprised from time to time to discover I was unwilling to cede an argument simply because I didn’t want to lose - which of course is standing truth on its head.

Thank you to both of you, and to JonW, for writing about the need of humility in our activities here.
 
Have I ever come across as arrogant? I sure hope not! That has never been my intention. If I have ever come across like that, please forgive me. 😊
 
I think the thing to remember is that we all have opinions and in most cases opinions aren’t wrong. Now if that opinion is that it is okay to go out and kill one’s neighbor, that would fall under the wrong category. But other than extreme cases we are all entitled to our opinions.
 
I think the thing to remember is that we all have opinions and in most cases opinions aren’t wrong. Now if that opinion is that it is okay to go out and kill one’s neighbor, that would fall under the wrong category. But other than extreme cases we are all entitled to our opinions.
I’m always reminded of what St. Benedict told him monks regarding opinions. I’m paraphrasing it, because I read this many years ago in grad school. He told them that it was human to have opinions and it was holier to keep them to yourself until your superior asked you for them.

The point that he was trying to drive home was that one has to make sure that one’s opinion does good. If one is not sure, then keep it to yourself. Don’t risk doing harm just for the sake of expressing your opinion.

The part where the superior comes in is the part of humility. You must always be willing to have someone else tell you when your opinion is wanted or not. Even good opinions are subject to the judgement of the Church.

Benedict was a wise man.

JR 🙂
 
goofyjim:

What is extreme to you may not be extreme to me. We are all entitled to our opinions whether they are extreme or not.

marietta
 
I’m always reminded of what St. Benedict told him monks regarding opinions. I’m paraphrasing it, because I read this many years ago in grad school. He told them that it was human to have opinions and it was holier to keep them to yourself until your superior asked you for them.

The point that he was trying to drive home was that one has to make sure that one’s opinion does good. If one is not sure, then keep it to yourself. Don’t risk doing harm just for the sake of expressing your opinion.

The part where the superior comes in is the part of humility. You must always be willing to have someone else tell you when your opinion is wanted or not. Even good opinions are subject to the judgement of the Church.

Benedict was a wise man.

JR 🙂
I only try to stress the ever growing problem of political liberlas attacking conservatives and vice versa. It should cease. Except for moral issues there is no right or wrong on the political spectrum. I praise the Lord every day that we are not governed totally by one side or the other.
 
goofyjim:

What is extreme to you may not be extreme to me. We are all entitled to our opinions whether they are extreme or not.

marietta
Would you be in favor then of things like killing your neighbor or bombing other countries out of existence. These would be unsubstantiated views to hold by any means.
 
goofyjim:

We are speaking about opinion only. An opinion is not action. An opinion is thought or feeling. Your opinion that your boss is a total jerk is not the same thing as your taking him down with a 9mm because you think he’s a jerk.

marietta
 
goofyjim:

We are speaking about opinion only. An opinion is not action. An opinion is thought or feeling. Your opinion that your boss is a total jerk is not the same thing as your taking him down with a 9mm because you think he’s a jerk.

marietta
Not to get too technical but didn’t Jesus say the thought practically equals the action. Now I do understand that thinking your boss is a jerk is not the same as thinking about shooting him. But best draw the line there. And most on these forums believe liberals hate conservatives when I find the attitude goes equally both ways.
 
First, let me say that on a personal level I find that for the most part, the majority of the posters on this site are mild-mannered, polite and frankly “light-weights” in the “forum hostility” department. I can give you links to “forums” where you would be amazed at the brazen arrogance and stupidity show by the denizens of those forums.

Secondly…one must be very cautious when reading another’s words as posted in a forum…don’t try to read any emotion into the post. Its dangerous and often misunderstood. Some people have a dry wit, while others are the opposite. Take all with a grain of salt…its easier and healthier.

Third…don’t take anything too seriously…just go with the flow. 😃
 
goofyjim:

I remember when I was studying for my First Holy Communion the nun in my classroom told me that thinking a bad thing is just as evil as doing that bad thing. Even then, at age seven, I knew that this premise completely negated free will. I never knew that Jesus said it. I always thought the nuns were the ones saying it. How can this teaching be reconciled with the idea that we are endowed with free will, with a conscience and the ability to choose right from wrong? At the risk of appearing completely ignorant here, where can I find this in a Bible passage with some clarity to it?

Re: the forum liberals and conservatives not being able, or willing, to see the other person’s point of view - bullseye!

marietta
 
goofyjim:

I remember when I was studying for my First Holy Communion the nun in my classroom told me that thinking a bad thing is just as evil as doing that bad thing.
Maybe Sister left something out. Back then most Sisters were not allowed to study theology, as is the case today. What they taught was taught to them without the benefit of a theology course to dissect it. The actual teaching is that enertaining a bad thought is the same as performing the action. Random thoughts that cross our minds are not any fault of our own. However, entertaining such a thought is a choice. This comes from Jesus teaching adultery. “Anyone who lusts for a woman in his heart has already commited adultery.” He wasn’t talking about random thoughts. Lusing requires an act of the will. One wants the thing that is not allowed.
Even then, at age seven, I knew that this premise completely negated free will.
In order to arrive at a conclusion such as this, you must first begin with a question. What was the question that you began with and what were the premises that led to your conclusion? Was the question correctly stated? Were the premises true? Was the conclusoin consistent with the premises? In other words, how did you arrive at this conclusion?
How can this teaching be reconciled with the idea that we are endowed with free will, with a conscience and the ability to choose right from wrong?
To answer this question you must answer several others first.
  1. What does it mean to be endowed?
  2. How do you know that we’re endowed?
  3. What does freedom mean?
  4. What does the word will mean?
  5. Where do these terms come from?
  6. What is a conscience?
  7. Is conscience always correct?
  8. Does having ability mean that one has the necessary skills to execute an act? Is there a difference between ability and skill?
  9. What is the evangelical defintion of right?
  10. What is the evangelical defintion of wrong?
  11. How does the Church understand these terms?
  12. What does the Church say about conscience?
  13. What does the Church teach about freedom?
  14. Is all freedom an expression of free will?
  15. Is there a difference in morality between a human act and an act of human?
  16. If so, which of these two can be subjected to the scrutiny of morality?
In essence, either one engages in the study of all these questions or one accepts the answers provided for us by those who have already studied them.

These questions must all be answered before one arrives at an infallible moral position. The Church has gone down this path over the centuries and has developed a sytem that helps to rapidly discriminate between the moral, immoral and nuetral. We can rely and trust the Church or we can begin from the beginning for ourselves.

JR 🙂
 
JReducation:

What I get from your post is that the nuns in 1959-1960 were unqualified to carry any message to children because they were not permitted to explore their own faith/religion/dogma. Now it is nearly 50 years later. Where has that left those of us who were entrusted to their care? How many of us have up and left Catholicism in the wake of this storefront approach to religion?

I understand the concept of random thought versus entertainment of thought. I still do not agree that entertainment of thought is as serious an infraction as commiting the act. If this places me outside the realm of Catholicism, that is acceptable to me.

“What does it mean to be endowed?”, though a loaded question, brings me back to that otherworldly grey area, the Garden of Eden. Were not Adam and Eve endowed with free will and did they not choose to disobey? Or were the nuns told to make it up as they went along? If the nuns were incorrect, if this line of instruction is wrong, then who is accountable for any lost souls which stacked up as a result of this deceit? I have been visiting CAF for a good little while now. I have to say that, if anything, this information drives me farther away from the Roman Catholic Church than anything I’ve previously encountered here. And so you have done a fabulous job in helping me to define my own faith. For that I thank you.

The list of questions you have presented borders on insult. It seems like a semantics game designed to engage the reader in a time-killing endeavor just to please you. I choose not to participate in this. If you have to go through 16 steps to conclude whether or not your decision is morally correct, to genuinely address each and every question with “facts”, research, prayer, soul-searching, when do you have time to eat? After practicing Catholicism for X number of years, are you still on some sort of bingo sheet which tells you which way to go?

“These questions must all be answered before one arrives at an infallible moral position,” you claim. “The Church has gone down this path over the centuries and has developed a sytem that helps to **rapidly **discriminate between the moral, immoral and nuetral. We can rely and trust the Church or we can begin from the beginning for ourselves.”

Why rely on or trust a church that came out of the chute misrepresenting itself, asking nuns to do work they were unqualified to do, and expecting blind adherence to dogma that may not even be authentic RCC teachings?

My question to you: do Catholics have free will? Or, once you subscribe to the teachings of the RCC, is it all downhill? Do you just have to play morality bingo with your 16 chips and wait to cop your reward?

Participate or don’t, it’s all the same to me. I can anticipate how this will go down: Catholics: 100,000,000,000, maverick 0.

marietta

marietta
 
Maybe Sister left something out. Back then most Sisters were not allowed to study theology, as is the case today.
This is an incorrect statement.

My spiritual director is a nun and she has a master in Theology.

St. Therese of Avila,a Doctor of the Church, studied theology.
 
Marietta,

Maybe my post did not come through as clearly as I hoped it would. I was not suggesting that you or anyone else go through and answer all of these questions. What I am saying is that to answer questions regarding morality, the Church has gone through this process over the centuries. A person can either accept the Church’s conclusions or go through the process themselves. Personally, to go through that whole process is like reinventing the wheel. If someone has done it and has done a good job at it, then why not just pick up from their conclusions?

As to the training of Sisters before the 1960s, they were trained to be teachers, nurses, social workers and so forth. Their training in religious studies was limited to catechesis. They studied the rule and spirituality of their founders and they reflected on scripture. They also went on an annual retreat and usually a one day retreat monthly. This is how they got their formation in religious studies and faith. In other words, they did not have formal education in theology. This does not mean that they did not know the faith. What they did not know was the apriori questions and discussions that led to these conclusions. But they did know the conclusions and it was these that they taught to their students. This is the same as most religious educators today. Most religious educators know the teachings of the Church, but are not trained in the theological process that led to these teachings. Such theological training requires years of study, usually six to eight years at university specializing in theology and philosophy.

You also express concern for souls being lost, because the Sisters were not theologians. This cannot happen. One is not morally culpable for what one does not know. One is only accountable for what one knows and one’s choices based on what one knows, not what you don’t know. If the Sisters never taught you that you had to confess your sins (just an example) and no one else told you, you are not morally culpable for not confessing your sins. This is called invincible ignorance.

Obviously, most of us who went through Catholic elementary schools grew up and we have had the opportunity to learn more than what we learned in elementary school. The possibility of a Catholic not having access to learn more about his faith is very minimal, especially in developed nations such as the USA where we have so many opportunities to attend courses, retreats, workshops, congresses and other forms of adult religious education. Now there are shorter degrees in religious studies, than in the past. In my day it was an eight-year program. You had to study four years of philosophy and four years of theology. Many of these courses have been combined, the reading lists are shorter, the internet has made research faster and easier and the use of media to teach has also helped students learn more in a shorter amount of time. You don’t have to sit and read thousands of pages over an eight-year period.

Finally, to answer your question regarding free will. Catholicism does not deny free will. In fact it has been a great defender of religious freedom since the 1950s. The real issue is that free will does not mean that everything we desire to do is morally correct. In addition, conscience must be properly formed. An incorrectly formed conscience can be a very dangerous thing. If we look at contemporary times, radial Islamic believers feel very strongly that it is their moral duty to wage a holy war against the West. This is their conscience. But this is an incorrectly formed conscience. Conscience can never be contrary to revelation. Revelation has taught us that life is sacred and that human beings are sons and daughters of the Father. Therefore, you cannot declare war on others and terrorize them or worse, kill them. This is something that the Catholic Church cannot defend, even if the person’s conscience tells him that it is the right thing to do.

The Church must uphold revelation and the primacy of revelation over conscience. Conscience must conform to revelation. Such conformation does not take away from free will. All conscience does is inform the mind. The choice to follow the counsels of the conscience belongs to the will. The will is free to ignore the counsels of the conscience. The will is free to choose not to educate the conscience. That being said, the soul is the one who must live with the consequences of the choices that the will makes. What you have within each person is a triadic dynamic between the will, the conscience and the soul. The conscience informs the will. The will chooses. The soul reaps the consequences (good or bad).

Again, if we entertain a thought that is contrary to moral law and desire it, even if we never act on it, the fact that we desire it implies where we stand on this particular moral question.

I hope this helps.

JR 🙂
 
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