Lots of folks having "first visions"....

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if anyone is interested in returning to OP’s topic
the early 19th century did see a religious revival and the appearance on the scene of many so called visionaries, prophets and preachers advocating new way of living or even new religions, and western New York State was the venue for many of these movements. The intensity and influence of this religious fervor was such that the area was called the “burnt over district”. The Cambellites fractured into several movements that persist to this day, as did the Mormons. they are not the only ones, but two that retain influence today through the sects that are their spiritual descendents.

here is one link to many sites that can give you an overview of the second great awakening
history.sandiego.edu/gen/civilwar/01/burned.html
Millerites, Adventists and several other sectarian movements also see their roots here. fascinating topic

this link references the historical work that gave the district its nickname and lists some of the phenomena OP notes in his post
quezi.com/6697
 
Good post.

Rio Grande, Valley, huh? I travel there on a business about once a month. Gonna be there this Thurs and Fri, in fact. I try to go the Basilica when I am down there
 
SirThomasMore said:
why me;6696786:
Well, it goes like this. The fatima children get their idea from Bernedette and Bernedette gets the idea from someone else who claimed a mary visitation. See my point?

RED HERRING ALERT!!!
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Geez…sometimes, I am not sure you really understand what you post. Bernadette occurred in Lourdes, Fatmia in Portugal. Different countries. Different years. And you will have to show how the little kids in Fatima would have known all that they were shown. The quotes I posted were in the same town with months of Jose’s alleged 9 versions of his vision.

RED HERRING ALERT!!!

You claimed tom that Joseph borrowed the idea of the vision from others. I can also claim that those who saw the visitation of mary borrowed the idea from others. The year matters little. It is the copying. See my point? I still have no idea about the meaning of your post except to show a disdain for mormon beliefs.
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aquabatix said:
I think that it falls short though in that he doesn’t have “another testament” that he could have 19 year old boys or 21 year old girls pass out as they go door to door. Perhaps he should have written one too.
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Well, I don’t know…my daughter is a mormon missionary and although she claims the work is hard, she is not passing out going door to door. But one thing I do know, is that you don’t know how difficult it was to be a catholic missionary in the new world. Some did pass out from the heat and experienced many difficulties among the native populations. Any comments?

Not to mention the uncomfortable attire of the nuns who wore what they wore in extreme heat. See my point?
 
why_me said:
Well, it goes like this. The fatima children get their idea from Bernedette and Bernedette gets the idea from someone else who claimed a mary visitation. See my point?
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SirThomasMore:
RED HERRING ALERT!!!
Click to expand...
40.png
SirThomasMore:
Geez…sometimes, I am not sure you really understand what you post. Bernadette occurred in Lourdes, Fatmia in Portugal. Different countries. Different years. And you will have to show how the little kids in Fatima would have known all that they were shown. The quotes I posted were in the same town with months of Jose’s alleged 9 versions of his vision.

RED HERRING ALERT!!!
Click to expand...
I actually think that why me has a point. The Catholic Church verified Marian apparitions have a similar message: Do penance, sin no more, and believe in Jesus and His Church. You could make a similar argument with the OT prophets but no we don’t think the Prophets and the mystic saints stole anything because their messages are similar. Instead, it’s an argument for their authenticity.

While it’s unlikely that these saints came into contact with each other, it could be likely that these visions are similar due to the popularity of the belief or they heard it from someone; the latter being the same argument you used in the OP.

If you grant that both of your arguments are relevant, then its an argument based on silence. While Joseph Smith lives in proximity to these people, there’s no proof that he stole anything. If I grant you anything, it’s that Joseph’s visions aren’t unique but you’d have to prove more that he intended to steal anything.
 
why_me said:
SirThomasMore;6696862:
You claimed tom that Joseph borrowed the idea of the vision from others. I can also claim that those who saw the visitation of mary borrowed the idea from others. The year matters little. It is the copying. See my point? I still have no idea about the meaning of your post except to show a disdain for mormon beliefs.
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RED HERRING ALERT!!!

Not relevant.
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Dancelittleewok said:
I actually think that why me has a point. The Catholic Church verified Marian apparitions have a similar message: Do penance, sin no more, and believe in Jesus and His Church. You could make a similar argument with the OT prophets but no we don’t think the Prophets and the mystic saints stole anything because their messages are similar. Instead, it’s an argument for their authenticity.

While it’s unlikely that these saints came into contact with each other, it could be likely that these visions are similar due to the popularity of the belief or they heard it from someone; the latter being the same argument you used in the OP.

If you grant that both of your arguments are relevant, then its an argument based on silence. While Joseph Smith lives in proximity to these people, there’s no proof that he stole anything. If I grant you anything, it’s that Joseph’s visions aren’t unique but you’d have to prove more that he intended to steal anything.
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Actually, there is much greater likelihood that he heard about others in his little toww having visions the same time he did than little kids in Portugal hearing about other Marian visitations that happened many years berore theiors in a different country.
 
Perhaps by calmly identifying and noting the logical fallacies seen in Mormon apologetics and counter-apologetics, when we begin each post,we might educate our audience better. “Red herring” is not the only one. nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

With respect to all.

Interesting website I grabbed that one from. :cool:
 
Yeah, that was rudely stated, especially with a poster with the accomplishments of STM.
 
LongJourney said:
Yeah, that was rudely stated, especially with a poster with the accomplishments of STM.
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Yes, I hope STMore continues his debate on this topic. Sometimes certain posters do use a lot of red herrings, etc and it needs to be pointed out.

Thanks for the link. I like to learn about the different arguments people use, including myself. I am going to print that out for reference.
 
lax16 said:
Yes, I hope STMore continues his debate on this topic. Sometimes certain posters do use a lot of red herrings, etc and it needs to be pointed out.

Thanks for the link. I like to learn about the different arguments people use, including myself. I am going to print that out for reference.
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I prefer the threads to stay on topic. It seems that Mormon responses are often to defelct away from the point and try to focus on something different. I am not opposed to discussing Marian Visions, but not on a Joseph thread. If Whyme wants to to discuss Mary, start a thread. To discuss it here is red herrings and I will treat them as such. If someone thinks it is immature, well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. The Bible says that if you have a problem with someone, talk to them privately. The question is…is my red herring alert immature, or is chastizing a fellow Catholic publically immature?

We all have our opinions. I will keep pointing out the incessant red herring arguments
 
Dancelittleewok said:
I actually think that why me has a point. The Catholic Church verified Marian apparitions have a similar message: Do penance, sin no more, and believe in Jesus and His Church. You could make a similar argument with the OT prophets but no we don’t think the Prophets and the mystic saints stole anything because their messages are similar. Instead, it’s an argument for their authenticity.

While it’s unlikely that these saints came into contact with each other, it could be likely that these visions are similar due to the popularity of the belief or they heard it from someone; the latter being the same argument you used in the OP.

If you grant that both of your arguments are relevant, then its an argument based on silence. While Joseph Smith lives in proximity to these people, there’s no proof that he stole anything. If I grant you anything, it’s that Joseph’s visions aren’t unique but you’d have to prove more that he intended to steal anything.
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but the Church has also thrown out a lot of apparent Marian visions. its not like it has approved every single one of them
 
Dancelittleewok said:
I actually think that why me has a point. The Catholic Church verified Marian apparitions have a similar message: Do penance, sin no more, and believe in Jesus and His Church. You could make a similar argument with the OT prophets but no we don’t think the Prophets and the mystic saints stole anything because their messages are similar. Instead, it’s an argument for their authenticity.

While it’s unlikely that these saints came into contact with each other, it could be likely that these visions are similar due to the popularity of the belief or they heard it from someone; the latter being the same argument you used in the OP.

If you grant that both of your arguments are relevant, then its an argument based on silence. While Joseph Smith lives in proximity to these people, there’s no proof that he stole anything. If I grant you anything, it’s that Joseph’s visions aren’t unique but you’d have to prove more that he intended to steal anything.
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Catholics do not have to believe visions of others. They certainly aren’t binding on the whole church. Any are free to believe Fatima, or not.

If this is the comparison being made, then yes, we can look at Smith’s vision in the same way as we look at Catholic visions. Is it believable? Is Smith of a character that we should believe him? Would God actually say His own Church had failed? Scratch that, start over?

Obviously, some do believe, in spite of any evidence that indicates it is a foolish path.

In order to be LDS it is required that you not only believe Smith’s visions, but that you place your faith entirely on his house of cards.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Catholics do not have to believe visions of others. They certainly aren’t binding on the whole church. Any are free to believe Fatima, or not.

If this is the comparison being made, then yes, we can look at Smith’s vision in the same way as we look at Catholic visions. Is it believable? Is Smith of a character that we should believe him? Would God actually say His own Church had failed? Scratch that, start over?

Obviously, some do believe, in spite of any evidence that indicates it is a foolish path.

In order to be LDS it is required that you not only believe Smith’s visions, but that you place your faith entirely on his house of cards.
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Good morning, Rebecca! I know we have been on different sides of the fence for several threads, but, it lightens my heart when I can agree with your post 100%.

This particular post is the most relevant in this thread, in my opinion, and it is absolutely correct.

One can post the entirety of American history from the early 1800’s and make your own conclusions of how it influenced Joseph Smith. Some choose to believe the religious fervor of the time was part of God’s design in bringing about a restoration and some choose to believe the religious fervor of the time was nothing but noise.

It’s all a matter of faith.
 
pinay said:
Good morning, Rebecca! I know we have been on different sides of the fence for several threads, but, it lightens my heart when I can agree with your post 100%.

This particular post is the most relevant in this thread, in my opinion, and it is absolutely correct.

One can post the entirety of American history from the early 1800’s and make your own conclusions of how it influenced Joseph Smith. Some choose to believe the religious fervor of the time was part of God’s design in bringing about a restoration and some choose to believe the religious fervor of the time was nothing but noise.

It’s all a matter of faith.
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🙂 Of course, God has his hand in all things. How we interpret what we experience is what you are calling faith. Which, reminds me of something a friend at my parish said to me once. Mormons have real experiences that cannot be discounted. What they need help with, is understanding what those experiences mean.

It is a difficult task to enable a person so blinded by a wrong interpretation. It is not done by me, or anyone else here. It is only done by Jesus, acting in people’s lives through the Holy Spirit.

I think most here are trying to help Mormons be freed from what is blinding them.
 
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