Lots of liturgical abuses at my parish! Have you left a parish over abuses?

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MooCowSteph

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I’m considering leaving my parish over the abuses that take place in Mass. We plan on moving in the next 2 to 3 years, and were planning on switching at that time, but as I learn of all the abuses, I don’t know if I can keep attending there. I just started learning about the GIRM and the abuses that my church commits 6 or 8 months ago. My husband is a convert, and I’m a re-convert, so this church is pretty much all we know. In other words, I’m not familiar enough with the Mass to spot an abuse without learning what is and isn’t allowed.

Leaving would be difficult, we’ve gron close to many in the parish, including Father, and since were heavily involved, there would be many people to explain our leaving to. Father insists he’s doing nothing wrong.

Here are some of the things that go on that I’m pretty sure are abuses:
  • Children receive their First Holy Communion 2 years before their first reconciliation. The Education director, a sister, said, when confronted by my friend, “we wouldn’t do it if it was wrong. You are misinformed”.
  • The EMsHC (me and my husband included) enter the sanctuary after the sign of peace. The priest distributes communion to us in our hands, and we receive it after he receives it. After communion is concluded, we process (Priest not included) to the Chapel, which is in the back off of the vestibule.
  • The Precious Body and Blood are scoped and poured respectively into their containers by the EMCH after the consecration
  • The homily is sometimes given my seminarians or laypeople. On the Feast of the Holy Family, we were subjected to something particularly horrific in my opinion – a divorced man, his 2 children from his previous marriage, his new non-Catholic wife and their daughter gave a little talk on what it means to be a holy family. :mad:
  • We have no kneelers and only a small handful of people kneel during the consecration.
  • During Lent, the statues were covered, we had no corpus, and the holy water was drained.
  • As some of you may have read in my other post, on Good Friday, the remaining hosts were buried in the ground. :nope:
  • And there are more than space limits and probably more that I am not aware are abuses.
 
I moved three times with family in order to find an orthodox Catholic church. You might not know immediately upon trying a parish if it is legitimate. Sometimes you need to experience a few weeks or months to see fully. Sometimes you need to dig. Most people don’t like to dig.
If you have young children, try to do it as peacefully, cheerfully and unceromoniously as possible. They will feel what you feel.
If your children are older be a little more frank but be certain with them about how important it is for the whole family.
Never mind about all the ‘old friends’. If they wonder and care about you, they will call. You have the right to simply say we needed to try a new place of worship. You don’t have to explain beyond that if you don’t want to. There will be new friends in your new parish.
God’s love and guidance be you,
Binney
 
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MooCowSteph:
  • The EMsHC (me and my husband included) enter the sanctuary after the sign of peace. The priest distributes communion to us in our hands, and we receive it after he receives it. After communion is concluded, we process (Priest not included) to the Chapel, which is in the back off of the vestibule.
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If you do this when you know you shouldn’t then you are part of the abuse.
  • The homily is sometimes given my seminarians or laypeople.
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Yes this is an abuse but, for myself, I do not get to worked up if it is a seminarian.
  • During Lent, the statues were covered, we had no corpus, and the holy water was drained.
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This is not an abuse at all.

What have you done about these abuses? Those that are abuses and those that your percieve as abuses? Have you talked to the pastor about them? If so and nothing has changed have you contacted the bishop about them?

IMHO you must talk to the pastor and then the bishop before you run off to a new parish. You may not even be allowed to register as a member of a new parish. Some diocese require that you belong to a certain parish according to where you live. Now that wouldn’t stop you from attending a new parish.
 
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MooCowSteph:
I’m considering leaving my parish over the abuses that take place in Mass. We plan on moving in the next 2 to 3 years, and were planning on switching at that time, but as I learn of all the abuses, I don’t know if I can keep attending there. I just started learning about the GIRM and the abuses that my church commits 6 or 8 months ago. My husband is a convert, and I’m a re-convert, so this church is pretty much all we know. In other words, I’m not familiar enough with the Mass to spot an abuse without learning what is and isn’t allowed.

Leaving would be difficult, we’ve gron close to many in the parish, including Father, and since were heavily involved, there would be many people to explain our leaving to. Father insists he’s doing nothing wrong.

Here are some of the things that go on that I’m pretty sure are abuses:
  • Children receive their First Holy Communion 2 years before their first reconciliation. The Education director, a sister, said, when confronted by my friend, “we wouldn’t do it if it was wrong. You are misinformed”.
  • The EMsHC (me and my husband included) enter the sanctuary after the sign of peace. The priest distributes communion to us in our hands, and we receive it after he receives it. After communion is concluded, we process (Priest not included) to the Chapel, which is in the back off of the vestibule.
  • The Precious Body and Blood are scoped and poured respectively into their containers by the EMCH after the consecration
  • The homily is sometimes given my seminarians or laypeople. On the Feast of the Holy Family, we were subjected to something particularly horrific in my opinion – a divorced man, his 2 children from his previous marriage, his new non-Catholic wife and their daughter gave a little talk on what it means to be a holy family. :mad:
  • We have no kneelers and only a small handful of people kneel during the consecration.
  • During Lent, the statues were covered, we had no corpus, and the holy water was drained.
  • As some of you may have read in my other post, on Good Friday, the remaining hosts were buried in the ground. :nope:
  • And there are more than space limits and probably more that I am not aware are abuses.
Click to expand...
Yep, you’re right most if not all of these things you’ve listed are abuses. The divorced man may have had an anullment.

Before leaving your parish for a more orthodox one you should consider gathering all the facts you can and meet with the pastor and the sister and relay your concerns. It wouldn’t hurt to try to get them back on the right track. If they don’t listen to you write to your bishop (hope you have a good bishop), just keep moving up the chain of command all the way to the vatican if you have to.

Try contacting the Saint Joseph Foundation, they may be able to help.

If you do end up leaving in the end, wouldn’t it be nice to know that you did everything you could to try and rectify the situation?

We have some really crazy stuff going on at our parish and parish school right now that I could have never imagined in my wildest dreams but happening it is and it is even supported by many. Our bishop is part of the problem. I don’t beleieve our priests like what’s going on but they have to go with what the bishop says. Everyday I think about leaving our parish for a more orthodox one and sometimes we do go to different chuches for Mass. We’ve become roaming Catholics but then I get it out my system and we come back again. I love my parish why wouldn’t I fight for it and fighting we are all the way to the Vatican.

If you love your parish fight for it. You may have some people hating you for it but you will be standing up for the truth and for the Holy Catholic Church. Churches go bad because people let them go bad. It’s so much more comfortable to go with the flow and not to make waves or to just leave. Don’t leave, fight!

P.S. The part about burying the consecrated hosts that is terrible. I could be wrong but I believe what should have been done is to soak them in water until they are completely disolved and then pour them down the sacrarium. Let me check it out and I will get back to you.
 
I’ve had to leave a parish once. My mother and I travel about twenty-five to thirty minutes to attend a much more orthodox catholic church in a neighboring diocese.

The church we left had a large risen Christ statue in the sanctuary, and obstinately refused to put up a crucifix. (Once the processional cross was even forgotten)
The Holy water fonts were drained during Lent, and removed so they could not be refilled until Easter.
The Bishop of the parish’s diocese recently demanded a permanent crucifix to be placed in each church, and the processional cross to be kept outside of the sanctuary, but they’ve yet to comply. (Document can be found here: New Liturgical Norms for the Diocese of Charlotte )

We’d love to help that parish, but I don’t think they’ll listen. We are planning to write (kindly) to the pastor, and from there go through proper channels.
 
CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP
AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENT

INSTRUCTION

Redemptionis Sacramentum

On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

[107.] In accordance with what is laid down by the canons, “one who throws away the consecrated species or takes them away or keeps them for a sacrilegious purpose, incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; a cleric, moreover, may be punished by another penalty, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state”.[194] To be regarded as pertaining to this case is any action that is voluntarily and gravely disrespectful of the sacred species. Anyone, therefore, who acts contrary to these norms, for example casting the sacred species into the sacrarium or in an unworthy place or on the ground, incurs the penalties laid down.[195] Furthermore all will remember that once the distribution of Holy Communion during the celebration of Mass has been completed, the prescriptions of the Roman Missal are to be observed, and in particular, whatever may remain of the Blood of Christ must be entirely and immediately consumed by the Priest or by another minister, according to the norms, while the consecrated hosts that are left are to be consumed by the Priest at the altar or carried to the place for the reservation of the Eucharist.[196]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html
 
I have not personally met with the paster on all these issues. I know of at least two women who met with him over the first communion issue, and he claims it is not an error. I do not have children yet, so it has not become an issue for me. I also mentioned the Eucharistic prayer issue, and was told the same, that it was not an abuse. I haven’t brought up the other issues because if the big ones don’t matter, I doubt I’ll get a different response to something like the draining of holy water, which doesn’t seem like as big of an abuse.

At confession at another church, I asked about my continuing to be an EM. That priest didn’t think I had cause to stop. I do not have the power to change the way it is done.

I just learned yesterday, through these forums, that the burying of the hosts is a grave matter, and my husband and I plan to speak with him Sunday.

What gloria said about knowing I did everything I could makes a lot of sense. I do need to do that. I need to oversome a lot of fear and shyness. I feel like I am atatcking him, and I think that is how father will feel as well. Up to this point, I was able to deal with the abuses, but understandably, I cannot “deal” with the desecration of our Lord.

Please say a quick prayer that the Lord will give me the strength to confront these issues.
 
in support of what gloriapatri4 said, you must stay. if you don’t push for conducting a perfect sacrifice, who will? remember the point for having the rules. they allow us to make a fitting gift of worship to the Trinity. while abuse of the liturgy irritates us, it offends God. stay and defend Him.

you need to be frank with your priest. you don’t need to go and seek excuses from him. you have the upper hand. go and instruct him. the same goes for the other parishioners. inform them. ask them if they know that what they are doing is against the teachings of the Church, then show them proof. after that, let God do the rest. once they can no longer claim ignorance, they have to deal with sinning against Him. your continued presence will call that to their minds. if you leave, they will just continue to ignore the Holy Spirit and do whatever they choose. after you start telling people what is right, the priest will eventually feel the presure to serve Christ as he promised.

that may seem subversive, but it’s not. you are called to teach and lead people to Jesus. just complaining doesn’t do that. since you are in possession of the Truth, you are obligated to share it. don’t be secretive, and people will respect what you say. the Holy Spirit gave us Redemptionis Sacramentum to empower us and call us to the service of the Eucharistic Lord.

i totally sympathize with you about becoming more and more uncomfortable, as you become more and more informed. your discomfort is a good thing. the Holy Spirit has put you in the position of knowing; it is a gift. consider yourself a soldier for Christ. as a soldier, you don’t have to want to shoot at people, but you have to want to defend what is yours. if your friends turn it into a shooting match, that’s not your fault. you’re just trying to do what’s right. what are you going to do instead, surrender? be brave, be strong and be loving.

may God bless you,

john

p.s. post each abuse on a single thread and deal with them one by one, and the people here will give you exact citings of the rules and teachings to help you. you’re not alone. read about St. Catherine of Siena before you go to talk to the priest. she’ll fire you up with the right attitude.
 
the other day, yesterday, in fact, i went to the basilica that we have here in Norfolk,VA. it is the oldest parish in the Richmond Diocese – i believe it was founded in the late 1700s. years ago there was a priest there who stripped the church, practically bare. he turned the high altar around so that the flat, ugly back of it faced the congregation.

but anyway, i went there to pray my Rosary, and there were NO kneelers. a 200+ year old Church, and NO KNEELERS. I asked the docent – they offer tours of the church (though I dont know why) – if there were any kneelers. she said “no, not in here”. I turned around and left…
 
sounds like skaking the dust off one’s feet hmmmm where have I heard that one before?
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frdave20:
the other day, yesterday, in fact, i went to the basilica that we have here in Norfolk,VA. it is the oldest parish in the Richmond Diocese – i believe it was founded in the late 1700s. years ago there was a priest there who stripped the church, practically bare. he turned the high altar around so that the flat, ugly back of it faced the congregation.

but anyway, i went there to pray my Rosary, and there were NO kneelers. a 200+ year old Church, and NO KNEELERS. I asked the docent – they offer tours of the church (though I dont know why) – if there were any kneelers. she said “no, not in here”. I turned around and left…
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I read this

“How to Address a Liturgical Abuse”
adoremus.org/1295Bruno.html

and found it helpful. I’ve decided to focus on the issue of burying the hosts first, and then I’ll work on the Eucharistic Prayer abuses. Any tips?
 
I once had to leave a parish because the religious ed instructor was teaching the children that Jesus had a girlfriend.
 
We had a priest once, not the pastor, who would say Mass in a way that could be illicit. My dh & I approached the priest who got very defensive and insulting. He said that people who came to Church to worship God didn’t have any problem with the way he said Mass! Next, we approached the pastor who didn’t take any action. He said the GIRM had “wiggle room” in it. So we backed off & prayed for a long time. Then we wrote to the Bishop. Shortly before we wrote, we had a change of pastors. The Bishop acted very quickly and contqcted the new pastor who addressed the problems. The associate was called to the Bishop’s office and told to celebrate Mass according the the GIRM. He came back & announced at Mass that he was changing the way he said Mass because some people had complained to the Bishop! Shortly after, he requested a transfer. My point is that as informed laity, we have a right to a valid and licit Mass. If we’re not getting it, we need to take some action. As for the Director of Rel. Ed, there should be a diocesan office of religious ed. If your pastor won’t act, then go to the diocese or even to Rome. Cardinal Ratzinger has siad that we have the right to appeal to Rome if necessary.
Peace,
Linda
 
Steph, I’ll be very interested to see what kind of response you get. I left a parish to whom your present pastor was once assigned, so nothing you say surprises me. At that time, my issue was school, and a group of friends and I took the matter in our own hands and opened a small school for our kids, so that did not give us time or energy to stay and fight the liturgical stuff. Our archdiocese is pretty relaxed, it seems to me, about liturgy, so I will be following your story with interest. Good luck - I’ll be praying for you. I might suggest that you go to your actual Bishop - the regional vicar, rather than straight downtown to the Archdiocese and the Cardinal. Downtown is pretty set in its ways (and not in a good way), so you might get more action from somebody more “in the field.” Sorry, I don’t know which Bishop is your vicar - but you should be able to find out easily. You go, girl!

Betsy
 
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MooCowSteph:
As some of you may have read in my other post, on Good Friday, the remaining hosts were buried in the ground. :nope:
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if you are sure this is what happened, all the other illicit and abusive things you describe pale in comparison, this is deliberate sacrilege against the Holy Sacrament and is about as bad as you can get in canon law. Confront the priest immediately, state what you saw and ask for an explanation. It is your right. If he confirms that this happend, you must put this in writing to the bishop immediately, be as accuarate, complete and detailed as you can. sign your name. you can detail the other abuses in the rest of the letter just as you did here. dates, times, places, priest in charge, who was present, exactly what occurred. Bishop cannot act without a written complaint and accurate documentation. Send it certified mail return receipt requested. If you get no response in a reasonable time, write again, then contact papal nuncio. There is a procedure, as you found. This goes beyond liturgical abuse because deliberate desecration of the Eucharist calls for automatic excommunication that can be lifted only by Rome.

your concern about your new friendships among parishioners is admirable, if you really care about them you will do your duty toward safeguarding their immortal souls.
 
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