Lots of servers- Please Help

[CRW]

They can be carried up and placed on the stands by the ambo right away and left there if you don’t want the servers to hold them during the readings. After the Liturgy of the Word, durng the preparation of the altar they can be placed with the others on the altar, two on each side.

At our parish, the candle stands are made so that the top portion, holding the candle can be removed. When they arrive at the altar they place the candles in the stand next to the altar. Two servers then return to the altar, bow, remove the candles, go to the ambo, prior to the deacon or priest reading the gospel. The stands were made to make this possible. It also avoids putting the candles on the altar.

 

[kleary]

Vatican II did away with the Order of Sub-Deacon, it no longer exists in the Latin Church.

That is incorrect. The order of Sub-Deacon does exist. It was preserved by the SSPX and is a valid order in the FSSP. We have had several “sub deacons” at our parish since our inception in 2000 who are now priests.

Ken

 

[kleary]

I am certain that very good advice has been given here, but what concerns me is that an important person in the parish was given a duty which belongs to someone else, namely, master of ceremonies. That does not sound very much like a litrugical role, but it is in fact exactly what someone who manages a more complicated ceremony is called. In the parish where I grew up, which had to deal with more than one cardinilatial visit including the dedication of a new church, the MC was a young curate who was absolutely brilliant at it. But to tell an obviously dedicated CCD teacher that there are X number of servers expected and she should make sure they all know what they are doing and she has to go to a message board for advice, no, this is not acceptable. Such a person should not even be expected to know what a thurifer is. [All this on top of the fact that children should not be fulfilling all these functions, but let’s not go there now.]

There have been several “children” at our parish, if you can call a 12 year old a child, who have filled the role of Master of Ceremonies- which indeed is quite more complicated in the Traditional Latin Solemn Mass. It took the child many years of serving Mass in lower functions and also studying the directives and rubrics of the Traditional Roman Rite.

Ken

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

That is incorrect. The order of Sub-Deacon does exist. It was preserved by the SSPX and is a valid order in the FSSP. We have had several “sub deacons” at our parish since our inception in 2000 who are now priests.

Ken

You will have to direct me to an official Vatican document re-instating the Sub-deacon order. Since an official Vatican Document removed it and replaced it’s function with the title Ministries, no longer belonging to Holy Orders.

 

[jmcrae]

Wow, lots of great help; and congratulations Brendan on the new baby!

Regarding the candles, we discussed having them brought forward to the lectern/ambo and placed on stands during the alleluia- for the reading of the Gospel. Is that correct? If so, should they remain lit during the liturgy of the Eucharist then?

The candles should stay lit throughout the entire Mass. They should not be blown out until the end of the Recessional, when they are taken back to the Sacristy.

Oh, and should they be placed on a table in the back of the sanctuary until the alleluia?

No, they should be to either side of the Ambo during the Liturgy of the Word. The servers pick them up at the time of the Alleluia, and hold them up during the Gospel reading. (They put them back down and take their seats during the Homily.)

The custom at our parish is to then take them to escort the Gifts at the Presentation of the Gifts along with the Crucifix, and then put them to either side of the Altar at that time - they stay there for the remainder of the Mass until they are taken out during the Recessional.

 

[kleary]

You will have to direct me to an official Vatican document re-instating the Sub-deacon order. Since an official Vatican Document removed it and replaced it’s function with the title Ministries, no longer belonging to Holy Orders.

I believe it may be in the documents that gave legitimacy to the FSSP upon its inception. I know the Sub Diaconate does indeed still exist for the FSSP and the other “traditionalist” orders that are in communion with Rome. I know a seminarian in the FSSP who is currently a subdeacon.

Most likely it is allowed for the FSSP, and would need further clarification upon a publication of a “Moto Proprio” liberalizing the TLM - lest you have Sister Joan Chittister being “sub deacon” at a TLM .

Ken

 

[Titus]

Thank you Br. Rich for your, always helpful, advice.

We have no Deacon, so we have the reader (Lector) process with the Book of the Gospels. In that case, they would go before any servers, is that right?

Also, we have had the Crucifer bow and immediatly poceed into the sanctuary to secure the cucifix in place and be out of Fr’s way. How would that work with the Thurible?

OH, heck. Just please lend me your brain so I can glean out what I need!

Thank you!

The candles should stay lit throughout the entire Mass. They should not be blown out until the end of the Recessional, when they are taken back to the Sacristy.

No, they should be to either side of the Ambo during the Liturgy of the Word. The servers pick them up at the time of the Alleluia, and hold them up during the Gospel reading. (They put them back down and take their seats during the Homily.)

The custom at our parish is to then take them to escort the Gifts at the Presentation of the Gifts along with the Crucifix, and then put them to either side of the Altar at that time - they stay there for the remainder of the Mass until they are taken out during the Recessional.

I am fairly sure only the deacon may carry in the Book of the Gospels. As for the candles being at the side of the ambo, I have always seen this only for the Gospel, even at Papal Masses? Or is my memory befuddled? At our parish we have the acolytes (candle-bearers- not the instituted acolytes) escort the Offertory procession, but I believe this is unsound, since the Offertory is viewed as a free gift to God and so no escort. Not sure though.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I am fairly sure only the deacon may carry in the Book of the Gospels. As for the candles being at the side of the ambo, I have always seen this only for the Gospel, even at Papal Masses? Or is my memory befuddled? At our parish we have the acolytes (candle-bearers- not the instituted acolytes) escort the Offertory procession, but I believe this is unsound, since the Offertory is viewed as a free gift to God and so no escort. Not sure though.

In the absense of a Deacon, a Lector (it does not say Instituted Lector) may carry the Book of the Gospels in procession in.
It is never processed out and the Lectionary is never processed period.

 

[Brendan]

I believe it may be in the documents that gave legitimacy to the FSSP upon its inception. I know the Sub Diaconate does indeed still exist for the FSSP and the other “traditionalist” orders that are in communion with Rome. I know a seminarian in the FSSP who is currently a subdeacon.

Most likely it is allowed for the FSSP, and would need further clarification upon a publication of a “Moto Proprio” liberalizing the TLM - lest you have Sister Joan Chittister being “sub deacon” at a TLM .

Ken

FYI, the office of acolyte may also be legitimatly referred to as that of sub-deacon.

Per Pope Paul VI - MINISTERIA QUAEDAM

Two ministries, adapted to present-day needs, are to be preserved in the whole Latin Church, namely, those of reader and acolyte. The functions heretofore assigned to the subdeacon are entrusted to the reader and the acolyte; consequently, the major order of subdiaconate no longer exists in the Latin Church. There is, however, no reason why the acolyte cannot be called a subdeacon in some places, at the discretion of the conference of bishops.

So the office was not surpressed in the Latin Rite per se, but rather it’s clerical nature was removed.

 

[dvberte]

Update on the Christmas Vigil Mass-

Everything went very well! All of the kids showed up, on time even. There were a few mistakes here and there but all-in-all I’m told it was a wonderful sight and experience for the congregation. Too bad I was soo stressed couldn’t enjoy it. Guess it’s my Christmas gift to the parish?

BTW, I would LOVE to have an MC in our TINY parish. If you know any experienced ones willing to relocate, please let me know.