Loud children at Mass. thoughts?

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Edward_H said:
My wife and I would take turns going to early or a later Mass when one of our children was at that stage of loud crying.
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I don’t think my kids were ever loud/lengthy criers as infants. At most, they would need to be taken out for a minute. They were fantastic church babies.

However, the toddler years were far more challenging. At that age, they wouldn’t be crying, but would be eager to run back and forth (including probably several runs to the altar). My youngest spent at least a couple years running laps in the large narthex.

Where we are now, our youngest (who is diagnosed as likely on the autism spectrum and has in addition a lot of problems with attention issues and sensory-seeking behaviors) started settling down around 4. However, she’s 6 now and we’ve lately seen an uptick in behavioral issues (flopping around in the pew, speaking out of turn). She’s a big girl now, and it would be quite inappropriate for us to not take her to Mass, as she’s at prime Mass-learning age right now. I spent almost 3 years potty training her–a lot of things take her a lot longer than they take other kids.

So, what do we do? If we take her out, we’ve rewarded her for bad behavior. So, I’ve got a purse full of fidget toys (her psychologist says to meter them out, one every 10 minutes), she’s been informed that she’ll have to wait for her post-Mass cookie if she misbehaves, and I have a sticker chart. It’s been a long time since she earned a church sticker, but if she gets 4 more, we will get her a particular toy that she desperately wants.

Like it or not “sacrifice” is not an actual strategy, especially once you get past infancy.
 
I wanted to mention that I just found a product that may be very helpful. You know how kids loooove those flip sequin pillows and things? While looking at Amazon for sensory items, I found a flip sequin bracelet and immediately ordered it.
 
Oh! I need to find that for one of my girls. She is obsessed with everyone else’s flip sequins so I’m trying to stack her Christmas with them. Thanks for mentioning it!
 
MiserereMei25 said:
Isn’t mass for everyone though? Do not hinder the little ones from coming to me?
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But when Jesus said that, it wasn’t at the Last Supper, or even in the synagogue. Totally different circumstances. Presumably out in the open, for a start, with room for them to wiggle and make a noise.

That quote is so often dragged out, but it is not talking about Mass. Nobody is preventing children from coming to Hum.
 
As I said…it’s the degree of love parents put into it…are they loving their child by letting them do laps in the narthex? A good question to ask.

It may mean a bit of shaping…and less so “metering out” items that give consolation to the child.

3 minutes of relative stillness…correction…more stillness…correction/removal to the narthex.

4 minutes next time. Shape and temper, don’t merely reward…that’s for mice and monkeys. Most psychologists disagree with each other!

How attentive and effortful are they minute by minute to what their children are doing. The amount of effort they put into helping others focus on the Mass is proportional to the love they have for their neighbor and the priest.

Always a hard call, but the demands of parents develop us, help us grow in real love.
 
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Edward_H said:
As I said…it’s the degree of love parents put into it…
It may mean a bit of shaping…
3 minutes of relative stillness…
4 minutes next time…
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🤨 It’s so easy to be an expert in how others should raise their children. :roll_eyes:

As to the topic at hand, what to do about loud children at mass?

If they’re your kids, deal with it as best you can because you know your children better than anyone else.

If they’re not your kids, pray for the parents.

YOU and I have NO IDEA what those parents may be dealing with besides a screaming, squirming child.

If only we could each be more concerned about our own arrogance, selfishness, and lack of charity than about some other person’s supposed failings. 🙏
 
I did see a family come into Mass once with three older children and three happy meals. They showed up in the middle of the Gloria and the mother spent the first ten minutes she was there setting up their food on the pew, which they ate during Mass, until it was time to receive. When I got back from the communion line, all that was left of them was a couple fries and a single soda cup. It was really strange. Like they hadn’t meant to come into a Mass at all, but were just looking for a nice long bench to eat their lunch on.
 
It wasn’t easy raising our very large family.

It takes great love and beginning again, and good use of daily prayer, and frequent reception of the Sacraments, beating back self-pity, and oh yes, anger.

tt’s easier to pretend that our life is especially difficult.
 
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Edward_H said:
It wasn’t easy raising our very large family.

It takes great love and beginning again, and good use of daily prayer, and frequent reception of the Sacraments, beating back self-pity, and oh yes, anger.

tt’s easier to pretend that our life is especially difficult.
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How large was this large family?

I have to say that you haven’t given very specific or actionable advice. For example:
Edward_H said:
It may mean a bit of shaping…and less so “metering out” items that give consolation to the child.

3 minutes of relative stillness…correction…more stillness…correction/removal to the narthex.

4 minutes next time. Shape and temper, don’t merely reward…that’s for mice and monkeys. Most psychologists disagree with each other!
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I’m re-reading the behavior modification book “Don’t Shoot the Dog!” right now, and I have a number of thoughts on this:

–“Shaping” is a term from behavior modification–but shaping without reinforcement (which is what you’re describing) works as well as a door without hinges.
–What kind of “correction” can be effectively administered in the pew? A whispered verbal correction or physical redirection is not likely to be successful with a difficult child–that’s the sort of thing that a parent of a difficult child might do with no success at all.
–Removal to the narthex isn’t a punishment for the child. Ditto cry room. The child is not losing something that they value.
 
What you will find is that more often than not psychologists have screwed up children. They either try to mechanicalize their children or self-esteem them until the children are superficially good (not truly good and strong) or they are narcissists.

Shaping was an idea long before some pscyhologist earned a degree for inventing it!

Pscyhologists for the most part have rejected the notions of the soul (as a composite of capacities that God gave us to come to know Him, serve Him, love Him, and love all of His children as He wants/needs them to be loved), and of the developable human virtues.

Survey psychological literature and you will find scan mention of the human virtues over the last 40 years.

Virtue is a habit of doing acts toward some true good, keeping weaknesses of the human spirit (pride, vanity, love of comfort, introduced through Original Sin) at bay.

Learning to not cry at the drop of every tossle and pain is part of growing in human virtues: temperance, patience, longanimity, etc.

That’s the real meaning of shaping, not the term that Skinner decided to use for this form of interior development.

How can parents help their children learn not to cry at every tossle and little pain during Mass? Through small reminders and actions throughout each day - when it’s easy and when it’s not - during the ordinary day, each day, not just at Mass when failure to do so has broader effects on others.
  • Small barely noticeable delays in giving them water or food when they ask for it.
  • Calm movements from the mother and father, not frantic actions when the child asks for something or seems to need something.
  • Not pre-cooling/warming down the car before getting into it, so that the little one won’t feel a little bit of heat or cold.
  • Not over fussing on the child when the bath water isn’t just perfect. A little adjustment time is ok. Please don’t say I am saying scald or freeze the child. I am saying a little adjustment by the child won’t hurt them; it will help them…but this doesn’t need to be done with a great plan, spreadsheets; just NATURAL.
  • Not having everything perfect for the child right away.
  • Not interupting your own conversation with one of the other children when the younger child starts to cry.
Small delays, some waits, small discomforts, little insistencies, naturally done, allowed.

Not waiting until the child wakes up on their own to get going. Some parents become too attached to the “quiet time” they have in the morning, perhaps after nursing a child multiple times…sure it’s hard to lose sleep…but parents need to maintain the schedule outside of their desire for a bit of extra comfort…the young child in turn will learn that they don’t dictate the world.

I’m being brief in my comments but I think I’ve communicated the ideas of “little struggles” on both the child and the parent side…but they need to be done all day, everyday, not just little 'cheater techniques" that some psychologist thinks are good “to get through Mass”!

Deep and loving consistency all day, every day. Takes a lot of attention - takes true love - and effort.
 
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From Father Urteaga.
  • If you are tyrants, your children will be either rebels, or men/women of no personality.
  • If you are unyielding, they will be hypocrites,
  • If you are distrustful, they will be timid.
  • If you spoil them, they will be irresponsible.
  • If you have little faith, they will be superstitious.
  • If you have little hope, they will be childless.
  • If you have little love, they will be envious.
  • If you do not love freedom, they will be servile.
  • If you preach what you do not practice, they will be pharisaical
  • If you are misers, their heart will be in money.
  • If you are scrupulous, they will be obsessed with impurity.
  • If you are individualistic, they will be useless in the fight to save the world.
 
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Edward_H said:
How can parents help their children learn not to cry at every tossle and little pain during Mass? Through small reminders and actions throughout each day - when it’s easy and when it’s not - during the ordinary day, each day, not just at Mass when failure to do so has broader effects on others.
  • Small barely noticeable delays in giving them water or food when they ask for it.
  • Calm movements from the mother and father, not frantic actions when the child asks for something or seems to need something.
  • Not pre-cooling/warming down the car before getting into it, so that the little one won’t feel a little bit of heat or cold.
  • Not over fussing on the child when the bath water isn’t just perfect. A little adjustment time is ok. Please don’t say I am saying scald or freeze the child. I am saying a little adjustment by the child won’t hurt them; it will help them…but this doesn’t need to be done with a great plan, spreadsheets; just NATURAL.
  • Not having everything perfect for the child right away.
  • Not interupting your own conversation with one of the other children when the younger child starts to cry.
Small delays, some waits, small discomforts, little insistencies, naturally done, allowed.
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Many of these things simply don’t work when you have a kid with sensory issues. “Small discomforts”, as you write here, are not simply small discomforts to such children, or their parents for that matter. Sometimes nothing you do is going to help and you just have to help them get through it. And we never know which kids are dealing with which issues during Mass, unless we know the family. So better to just give parents the benefit of the doubt and not assume they’re doing something wrong and that “seasoned parents” just know better.
Edward_H said:
Not waiting until the child wakes up on their own to get going. Some parents become too attached to the “quiet time” they have in the morning, perhaps after nursing a child multiple times…sure it’s hard to lose sleep…but parents need to maintain the schedule outside of their desire for a bit of extra comfort…the young child in turn will learn that they don’t dictate the world.
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Mothers who nurse their children all night need whatever extra sleep they can get in order to be good mothers. And I can’t imagine that mothers with more than one child get much extra sleep in the morning anyway, because the other kids are up. Have you ever nursed a child all night? Then tried to function the next day?
 
We will disagree on this. Too many parents find a “category” name for their child’s apparent issues - given to them from a non-believing psychologist, but not always - and they just label their child’s problem away, easing them of the task.
 
Edward_H said:
We will disagree on this. Too many parents find a “category” name for their child’s apparent issues - given to them from a non-believing psychologist, but not always - and they just label their child’s problem away, easing them of the task.
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My son has been diagnosed by multiple medical professionals with sensory processing disorder. Most kids with autism also have sensory issues. You wouldn’t know by looking at many of these children that they are struggling with such things. I really encourage you to be charitable toward those of use who are dealing with these- very REAL- issues, instead of just blaming us parents. It’s unkind.
 
I don’t see what’s uncharitable in speaking in general terms about children crying at Mass.

I am not directing my comments at any particular child or parent, but instead offering a view counter to what seems to me a growing trend in over diagnosing and over medicating children for attentional issues.

I am not alone.

Look at the work that Dr Kevin Majeres at Harvard (he’s an MD) on this topic. He’s said he’s all but STOPPED medicating children for many of these disorders, instead returning to a focus on slow development of the human will. He’s having great success.

There is however a common thread here to take personal offense at every comment made, however generally it’s targeted. That’s a whole other problem in our society at large. It’s sort of approach of “suing people” without the lawyers, and it’s seen in various comments as “being uncharitable, so unkind, so arrogant”.

Many parents have become pecularily defense, and prone to take immediate and hostile offense at any general comment.
 
I don’t think this is bad advise. Teaching kids to wait for what they want rather than relentlessly whine or fuss goes really far in helping them to be a marginally likable person. I just don’t think that those things are related to most kids’ inattentiveness at Mass. At least not my kid. She’s not fussing because she’s hungry or cold for a few minutes. The issue is that she’s bored to tears and has difficulty focusing on being absolutely silent and still for an hour. It’s easier at the moments when there is singing and during the Eucharist, which she finds interesting, but even then, it’s really hard for her to stand and sit perfectly. It’s gotten easier as she’s getting older but it is still a challenge at times. Since she has a younger brother that requires a lot more of my attention to keep quiet, and my husband is always playing the piano and organ or directing the choir, she has to be responsible for herself for the most part. On the other hand, she’s definately not running out of the pew or screaming at the top of her lungs. Her transgressions are more like stacking up all the hymnals on the pew, dancing inappropriately to the music, asking loud questions, or trying to get the attention of her brother or other kids around her.
 
Edward_H said:
We will disagree on this. Too many parents find a “category” name for their child’s apparent issues - given to them from a non-believing psychologist, but not always - and they just label their child’s problem away, easing them of the task.
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Just to clarify and not disagreeing (for the most part) with what you said in your last post in fact, I think the post was excellent) sensory processing disorder is not diagnosed or recognized by psychologists as a psychiatric disorder at this time. It is usually diagnosed by an Occupational Therapist and is not a psychological condition.

You have gone through excellent ways to help a normally functioning child grow in virtue from a young age. As you briefly mentioned, these are normal things that most parents do naturally.

But kids with sensory processing disorder don’t have the foundation required to build on. You could write an excellent description on how to teach a child to walk, but if that child lacked legs? You would have to rethink your whole premise. If you wanted that child to walk, you would have to first build and fit a pair of prosthetic legs. Then, you would have to go through the long and painstaking process of helping a child adjust to those prosthetic legs. At that point, and only at that point, could you begin to teach the child to walk and it would not be natural.

Most parents have to work on teaching their 4 year old to sit still and quiet for a little while. I had to work on building a foundation so that my eight year old would not fall out of a chair.

Do I sometimes overcompensate for my kids with special needs? Sure. Of course I do. If you had ever experienced a full-blown sensory meltdown, you might also do anything you could to avoid it. Has my sensory over responsive daughter learned bad habits because of this? Probably. But she is slowly learning to control her emotional responses to physical pain. It is a lot for a child to have to take on. Most adults also struggle when dealing with chronic pain . Everywhere we go, normal aspects of life are agonizingly painful to her that are barely a blip on my radar. It is absolutely necessary to adjust my idea of normal when I’m dealing with her.
 
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