Loud children at Mass. thoughts?

[Allegra]

I’m sure I don’t know who they were. I had never seen them before, but it was an enormous parish with seven weekend Mass times. I was at a Mass I didn’t normally attend and I don’t spend my Mass time staring at people and trying to memorize their faces. It was somewhat of a surreal experience. They weren’t loud or noisy or anything. They were just strange because people don’t normally eat a Happy Meal picnic in church.

 

[blackforest]

Ah yes! I face this all the time as a parent. In the check-outline at Safeway, the child screams for (the cleverly placed) candy.

If I say yes and buy the candy: “Kids these days! They get everything they want! And they eat far too much sugar. Why do today’s parents spoil their children so much?”

If I say no and get the cry treatment: “Ugh! What a noisy little brat! Why can’t she control her child?”

That’s a whole other problem in our society at large. It’s sort of approach of “suing people” without the lawyers, and it’s seen in various comments as “being uncharitable, so unkind, so arrogant”.

The so-called Litigation Nation was largely a myth pushed by doctors and other corporations wanting tort limits.

As to the other point, I do grow weary of people getting offended by people getting offended. If there’s a rude remark or action, it’s OK to feel offended.

 

[babochka]

I don’t see what’s uncharitable in speaking in general terms about children crying at Mass.

I am not directing my comments at any particular child or parent, but instead offering a view counter to what seems to me a growing trend in over diagnosing and over medicating children for attentional issues.

I am not alone.

Look at the work that Dr Kevin Majeres at Harvard (he’s an MD) on this topic. He’s said he’s all but STOPPED medicating children for many of these disorders, instead returning to a focus on slow development of the human will. He’s having great success.

There is no medication for sensory processing disorder. There is only years of therapy and hard work. This is the human will at its best - time and effort and building a neurological network, knowing that it might never be perfect and might never be as good as somebody else’s

Sensory processing disorder is not well-known unless you have had to deal with it. It is silent and it often looks like misbehaving children. You and others deserve to know and be educated about this issue.

And, lest we lose track of the original point, of course I think noisy and disruptive kids should be taken outside of the church.

 

[Gertabelle]

@DeniseNY

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to come across as so arrogant and selfish.

My concern with these threads is the tendency to focus on what other’s should be doing: “Parents should put everyone’s needs ahead of their own” (and I actually believe this to a certain extent). “Other parishioners should ignore noisy children and not cast stink eyes at parents who aren’t doing what they would do.”

Everyone has a cross to bear, and others simply don’t know. That mom that’s letting her toddler crawl back and forth across the pew and who is doing nothing about it may be at the end of her rope with anxiety or grief or loneliness or God alone knows what.

And yes, the childless parishioner next to her may be equally suffering and be at the end of his rope and driven to the point of distraction by a noisy child.

Wouldn’t it be the most beautiful reflection of the Kingdom of God if these two sorrowing souls could support each other somehow? I mean, it’s way easier to cast a stink eye, or get defensive about a disruptive child, or play the my-suffering-is-worse-than-yours game.

In the end, the only person we can control or change is ourselves. My 15-year-old rarely throws tantrums at mass these days, but I still desperately need the silence and prayerfulness of the mass. So, since I cannot control the screaming or disruptive child (or their parents), can I reach out in charity to the parent somehow? Can I give from my need (rather than my surplus) to lift someone else’s burden rather than add to it?

Well, I’ve probably said all this poorly again. But I have to get ready for mass now.

God bless you.

 

[Edward_H]

My wife and I learned a good technique/practice to help our children from a marvelous Protestant family, really from their father, who was an Annapolis grad/Naval Officer.

We’d say: “Eyes in the boat” at the video store (to video covers) or when a salacious looking billboard would come into view on the highway. It helped us too. Our children would see something first, and we’d know to avert our attention, and this drove a bit of good family unity.

The idea is to teach your children when they are very young to avert their attention/glance. It’s taught early when they have a spirit of docility, and it strengthens their will to do the good.

This didn’t create the opposite effect as someone posters here will be only too quick to comment. It created a calming, good tone around us as we moved about the world. We didn’t over focus on it, but as it seemed fitting and the kids just smiled their way through the visual temptation, whether it was to candy in the check out lane or to something not good for their visual senses.

Custody of the eyes, leads to custody of one’s mind, and one’s body, as the Church teaches us.

 

[Clementine14]

Look at the work that Dr Kevin Majeres at Harvard (he’s an MD) on this topic. He’s said he’s all but STOPPED medicating children for many of these disorders, instead returning to a focus on slow development of the human will. He’s having great success.

There is however a common thread here to take personal offense at every comment made, however generally it’s targeted. That’s a whole other problem in our society at large. It’s sort of approach of “suing people” without the lawyers, and it’s seen in various comments as “being uncharitable, so unkind, so arrogant”.

Many parents have become pecularily defense, and prone to take immediate and hostile offense at any general comment.

There is no medication to treat sensory processing disorder, so not sure how helpful that would be.

I do get defensive, because I have been that mom who has gotten hostile looks, glares, and rude comments directed at me. I’m the one who carried her 40 pound crying kid out of the church because the singing was too loud for his senses, and never could calm him down enough to bring him back in. I cried the whole way home that day. I’ve had to miss Mass (and other events) more times than I’d like, and it doesn’t help when people assume that parents are somehow at fault all the time.

All I’m trying to say is that all these comments about how parents don’t know what the heck they are doing and if they’d just do x, y, or z their kid could behave and stop bothering everyone else…are unhelpful and even ignorant. Your advice may be very helpful for kids who don’t have any neurological impairments. But there’s no way for anyone to tell which of the kids who are being disruptive actually suffer from these things, so it’s kinder to just assume that the parents are doing their best. Yes, I think parents should remove kids who are really wailing and upset- and I’ve always done that. But it doesn’t stop the criticism both in real life and online. It’s hurtful.

 

[Edward_H]

Read more slowly.

Millions of children with “sensory processing disorders” have been put on ADHD drugs for years.

Majeres is saying this is bad idea.

So his new approaches aren’t medicative; they’re based on slow training of the human will, human attention span, and non-medical methods to reduce attendant anxiety.

 

[babochka]

Read more slowly.

Millions of children with “sensory processing disorders” have been put on ADHD drugs for years.

This is true. These children have sometimes been misdiagnosed and put on ADHD medications. Sensory processing disorder is not ADHD and is not treated, when properly diagnosed, with medication.

 

[Edward_H]

Yes, Majeres knows this space well. Somewhere I saw him saying that more than half of incoming Harvard undergraduates are on “performance enhancing drugs” (meaning ADHD type drugs).

He takes on the fatuous point that many parents make “my child is too intelligent and curious and can’t focus on boring subjects” (prideful sort of reflex in parents).

He teaches children and adults methods that can make ANY task more attention demanding, and how one can get into the attention zone with any task whatsoever.

 

[Clementine14]

Yes, Majeres knows this space well. Somewhere I saw him saying that more than half of incoming Harvard undergraduates are on “performance enhancing drugs” (meaning ADHD type drugs).

He takes on the fatuous point that many parents make “my child is too intelligent and curious and can’t focus on boring subjects” (prideful sort of reflex in parents).

He teaches childre, and adults how ANY task can be made attention demanding, and how one can get into the attention zone with any task whatsoever.

I’m not sure what any of this has to do with sensory processing disorder? I’d be glad to read any specific work he has on the subject.

 

[Edward_H]

Quieting oneself in Mass is a task.

I’m also not quite clear what is truly the supposed mechanism involved in something so broadly called “sensory processing disorder”. I’d need to study up to see how differentiating it is, what criteria are used, how much consistency in classification is there between doctors of the same children, etc. etc.

Just not passing the test for me in terms of rigor. And based on my reading today on the web, I think it’s sort of a pscyhological term for a hodge podge of behaviors not well understood.

 

[Clementine14]

Just not passing the test for me in terms of rigor. And based on my reading today on the web, I think it’s sort of a pscyhological term for a hodge podge of behaviors not well understood.

This is the sort of attitude those of us dealing with this day in and day out are up against. It’s a “made up” diagnosis or parents are just looking for something to explain poor behavior. That’s unfortunate for kids and their parents dealing with it. The ones who do our best to help our kids learn how to function in a world that doesn’t believe that there are neurological differences in these kids. This is the type of thing parents of autistic children used to face (and sometimes still do) before it became clinically recognized. SPD is a neurological disorder, not some kind of “catch all” phrase clinicians throw at a patient they can’t attribute to anything else. This is one of the leading sites with information and research about the disorder:

Research

sensoryhealth.org

In any case, this is just one of the many reasons a child might be disruptive at Mass or somewhere else. I only hope that the next time anyone sees me or another parent carry a screaming child out, that they are kind enough to say a prayer instead of judging the parent’s “failure” to parent. Maybe the parent is dealing with some kind of disability or disorder in their child. Maybe the parent has their own physical or psychological health concerns and simply is doing their best. Or maybe they just don’t care whether their kids act up- that’s possible too. My point is that typically there is no way of knowing, so why not assume the best?

 

[Xantippe]

My concern with these threads is the tendency to focus on what other’s should be doing: “Parents should put everyone’s needs ahead of their own” (and I actually believe this to a certain extent). “Other parishioners should ignore noisy children and not cast stink eyes at parents who aren’t doing what they would do.”

Practically speaking, I think there’s a lot to be said for going to the right Mass, at least when there are choices.

There are Masses that are a lot quieter/have a lot fewer small children/less obtrusive music versus Masses that are the opposite, and it’s worth some experimentation to figure out where you or family fits in. 5:30 PM Masses are often pretty safe with regard to little kids.

 

[Edward_H]

Welll, I think it’s unfortunate that the science of differentiating various forms of behavior, and the actual causes of it isn’t more advanced.

Many, mostly good, people have thrashed about trying to put names on various behavior. Some causes have been sorted out…some have been thought to be sorted out, only to find out later that these causes arent’ causes at all.

Do you remember the Harry Harlow monkey/autism theories.

Some of these problems may be due to hard wiring problems…whatever that really means.

Other forms of behavior are more the result of learning, shaping, or lack of good parenting.

That’s a reality.

Some parents go overboard and try to mechanicalize the child, having taken a few goofy pscyhology classes in college. My college roomate is a perfect example of this. He had little checklists and graphs and reward systems all set up for his children…he and his wife. He proudly showed me these involved systems and I thought at the time as we visited them once: Trainwreck ahead. Boy was that right.

So there are some - no other word for it - stupid but well meaning parents who think parenting is a big science experiment.

One only has to look at the problems we see today in the millenials (older and younger) to see the disaster that pop psychology (and even psychology and the “educationalists”) has caused…adhd explosion, selfishness, self-pity, self-loathy, depression, disobedience, narcissism, suicide, medication, therapy ladened.

Thank you the science of psychology and the major we call in universities “education”.

Yet our “self-esteem” is off the charts!! If you don’t believe it just listen to the complaining!

Then there are some defensive, quickly offended parents who spend more time focused on what others supposedly think of them and their children, than working togegther as a couple to understand how they can help their children grow rather than wondering who is supposedly “judging” them. The great offense.

 

[Xantippe]

Many of these things simply don’t work when you have a kid with sensory issues. “Small discomforts”, as you write here, are not simply small discomforts to such children, or their parents for that matter. Sometimes nothing you do is going to help and you just have to help them get through it. And we never know which kids are dealing with which issues during Mass, unless we know the family. So better to just give parents the benefit of the doubt and not assume they’re doing something wrong and that “seasoned parents” just know better.

Right.

Baby Girl is my third child. My two teens are exquisitely behaved during Mass, and have been for years. I might just know what I’m talking about when I say that Baby Girl is a different type of critter.

We will disagree on this. Too many parents find a “category” name for their child’s apparent issues - given to them from a non-believing psychologist, but not always - and they just label their child’s problem away, easing them of the task.

Not at all. Once you have a diagnosis, that’s the beginning, not the end. But it does mean that you can work with your child in a more focused, well-informed way. For example, Baby Girl got a diagnosis of probable autism spectrum a year and a half ago, and while that was helpful, what has been new to me has been realizing that she is engaging in sensory-seeking behavior, and that that’s what is primarily driving her Mass behavior. Once I understood that, things clicked, and I could start taking appropriate action. For example, we rock her and rub her back, even though she’s a big 6-year-old, we’ve gotten good results with fidget toys, and I’ve ordered her a flip-sequin bracelet (which I discovered while looking up sensory items on Amazon). I’m also planning to order her Magnifikids, as her older siblings got a lot out of the children’s missals when they were her age and for several years after that.

Look at the work that Dr Kevin Majeres at Harvard (he’s an MD) on this topic. He’s said he’s all but STOPPED medicating children for many of these disorders, instead returning to a focus on slow development of the human will.

I looked at his website. I don’t know about his specific treatment method (which may be superb), but I have to point out that he’s extremely expensive and doesn’t take insurance:

http://www.drmajeres.com/the-practice

" * 15 minute session: $100

• 30 minute session: $200
• 45 minute session: $300
• 60 minute session: $400
• Preparation of Letters, Reports, Mailing Prescriptions, etc.: $100/15 min"

The issue is that she’s bored to tears and has difficulty focusing on being absolutely silent and still for an hour.

Right. It’s the sitting quietly for 60 minutes that is the primary obstacle.

For this particular kid, we’ve discovered that bored = bad. And not just a little bad, either.

 

[Edward_H]

“60 minutes”

That’s not the goal.

The goal is 10 minutes or so…walking outside for maybe 10…back into the holy fray for maybe 5 or 10 more.

Next week…a bit more.

I remember hearing some of our friends talk about how hard it was to eat out with children. My wife gave me the smile.

We didn’t eat out for 3 years…then we HAD to eat out with others in another city before a wedding one weekend. No baby sitters available. After about 5 minutes, with our youngest, I was in the parking lot walking. My wife came out 10 minutes later with some dinner rolls and a smile. etc.

Parents don’t have a right to eat out while letting their children disrupt dinner conversations of others. “Share the load and suffer happily” is the watchword for young Catholics.

 

[Edward_H]

Regarding Majeres, to assess value depends on what he can do for the time.

But the broader point I am making is that he is one medical doctor who could be making gobs shelling out ADHD pills to children (really for parents), but he choose a different path.

If his techniques work more will follow him and the price will drop.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m also not quite clear what is truly the supposed mechanism involved in something so broadly called “sensory processing disorder”. I’d need to study up to see how differentiating it is, what criteria are used, how much consistency in classification is there between doctors of the same children, etc. etc.

Just not passing the test for me in terms of rigor. And based on my reading today on the web, I think it’s sort of a pscyhological term for a hodge podge of behaviors not well understood.

You’re not wrong to feel that way.

My educated opinion (I’ve read a lot of books on positive reinforcement, disciplining difficult children, high functioning autism, I’m starting to read up on ADHD and I have two kids with a diagnosis of Asperger’s /ASD) is that while people tend to think of different diagnoses as being totally discrete entities, the truth is that comorbidity (having multiple issues) is more the rule than the exception in this area. There’s a lot of overlap and these are not water-tight compartments. For example, ASD kids generally have attention issues and/or may suffer from OCD, and ADHD is often comorbid with something else. In addition, there’s tremendous variation within the autism spectrum. But there are strong family resemblances between these neighboring diagnoses.

I’ll also throw out there the fact that some people believe that sensory issues are the defining feature of the autism spectrum, so they might see the sensory issues we’ve been talking about as falling under the ASD umbrella. This might be helpful:

Autism, Sensory Processing Disorder, and Sensory Integration

Children with sensory processing disorder are over- or under-sensitive to visual, tactile, and aural input. Treatment involves occupational therapy.

www.verywellhealth.com

“In the past, sensory issues were not considered to be a core symptom of autism; in fact, sensory challenges were not even mentioned in the diagnostic criteria. The reality, however, was that most people with autism seemed to react differently to light, sound, physical pressure, smell, and taste.”

“60 minutes”
That’s not the goal.
The goal is 10 minutes or so…walking outside for maybe 10…back into the holy fray for maybe 5 or 10 more.
Next week…a bit more.

Question: From the child’s point of view, why should they want to be in the sanctuary rather than having a nice walk outside?

The method you are describing rewards the child for whatever behavior it was that “wins” them a trip outside.

We didn’t eat out for 3 years…then we HAD to eat out with others in another city before a wedding one weekend. No baby sitters available. After about 5 minutes, with our youngest, I was in the parking lot walking. My wife came out 10 minutes later with some dinner rolls and a smile. etc.

What was the child learning from that?

 

[blackforest]

5:30 PM Masses are often pretty safe with regard to little kids.

Oh, ours is PACKED with families! I’m sure it varies at different parishes, though.

I’d think a surefire bet would be the 8:00am Mass. There’s no way I could get all of my young children coordinated by then, let alone my exhausted husband, lol!

 

[Xantippe]

We went to 11:30 Mass this morning with Baby Girl. Her behavior was at least an A- today, after quite a few weeks of C/D behavior. She was initially on track for a solid A, but there was a little bit too much chatter. However, her physical behavior was just about perfect. We started off with Big Girl rocking Baby Girl. Eventually Baby Girl wound up between me and my husband and I doled out a series of fidget toys, one at a time. I didn’t do the 10 minute thing, but when she seemed to be getting bored, I handed her a fidget toy. Around the last 10 minutes of Mass, she told me she didn’t need anything.

She’d also had a long walk before Mass.

Interestingly, the fidget toys seem to give her the ability to be receptive to the sort of verbal corrections EdwardH advocates. She was very docile. (Last Sunday, she got bored, leaned back in the pew, reached out a long leg, and her shoe connected with the chapel veil of a small trad girl in front of us. I was dying.)

We’re working on figuring out how to communicate in Mass without talking. I explained to her after Mass that she can just hand me a toy and I’ll understand that i need to give her another one. I also told her that she is getting a sticker for her church sticker chart and she has something special she wants for when the chart is full. She’s up for a prize with 3 more stickers, but it’s a 30 sticker chart, so this is not going to break the bank.

Obviously, if parents can get results without this sort of stuff, rock on, but when you need it, you need it. I can virtually guarantee you that Dr. Majeres uses some of the methods I’m talking about. There are only so many behavioral tricks available.

My biggest concern is the possibility that her good behavior is caused by the novelty of the fidget toys, and that the benefits will wear off in a couple of weeks. We will see.