Loud children at Mass. thoughts?

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You don’t think hauling my whole family in and out of Mass every ten minutes would be more distracting to others? Keep in mind that there’s currently a thread on here by a guy who is put out that people tug on the back of their shirt when they stand up during Mass. Apparently, that makes it impossible for him to pay attention.
 
PS- My kids don’t have problems in restaurants. Restaurants aren’t Mass.
 
The chapel veil story reminds me of an unfortunate episode when my girl was just short of 2yo. In my opinion, people sit down in front of toddlers and who let their hair hang down the back of a pew into the “pew space” behind them deserve what they get.
 
Yeah, to me there’s no comparison. Speaking voice and waiting your turn to talk is not complete silence. Staying in your seat and no throwing food isn’t complete stillness. Besides, most of the restaurants we frequent are “Family restaurants” where date nights aren’t typical.
 
Allegra said:
The chapel veil story reminds me of an unfortunate episode when my girl was just short of 2yo. In my opinion, people sit down in front of toddlers and who let their hair hang down the back of a pew into the “pew space” behind them deserve what they get.
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LOL!

Yeah, I put our episode down to sensory-seeking. Baby Girl just has to touch people. That’s why it’s important to give her sensory (name removed by moderator)ut (like rocking, back-rubbing or the fidget toys) rather than leave it up to her to find sensory (name removed by moderator)ut for herself…

The thing that made the chapel veil episode especially embarrassing was that the victim is almost exactly Baby Girl’s size and age, and yet she was sitting in front of us, perfectly behaved.
 
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It was a grown woman’s braids that my kid had in a sticky death grip. I still say that people who flip their hair in other people’s face deserve what they get. The baby was there first. I don’t think my girl has sensory issues, although she did reach out once when she was in the seat of a grocery cart and caress someone’s velor jogging suit bottom. Fortunately, it was a little old lady and she was more amused than offended.
 
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Allegra said:
Besides, most of the restaurants we frequent are “Family restaurants” where date nights aren’t typical.
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Yeah. The restaurants we go to once in a blue moon either have counter service (so they’re quick) or it’s a place like IHOP that offers an activity sheet and crayons (and is also not that long a wait). I would never never ever set foot in a restaurant with small children if I wasn’t completely confident we’d get served within 20 minutes.
 
We go out to eat with our kids all the time. Probably twice a month if not more. Chilis is free for kids on Tuesdays. My daughter’s favorite is Cracker Barrel. People don’t go into places like that with the expectation of library silence. They just don’t want kids running loose and digging through their purses.
 
We had a baby start crying at the end of Mass, right as our priest started the announcements. Father looked over and said “don’t worry, I’m almost done.”
 
Xantippe said:
Question: From the child’s point of view, why should they want to be in the sanctuary rather than having a nice walk outside?

The method you are describing rewards the child for whatever behavior it was that “wins” them a trip outside.
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Well, I didn’t mean that when the child cries you “reward” them by taking them outside. It’s a judgment call that a parent HAS TO stay on top of the indicators and make a call, always erring for a bit more struggle for the child, until there appears to be a loss of coherence in the child, no longer an operative will, disorientation, etc.

And maybe there needs to be a bit of a quiet, calm response in the parent, perhaps not very talkative, a bit less warm, certainly no doting, a small distance introduced. Not mad, not angry but just a bit of a distance. No shaming, no hystrionics, but control, calm, deliberation.

So that the change can’t be interpreted as a real reward.

What was our child learning from not being in a restaurant? The fun and warmth of family dinners!

There are weeks in some children, and a few months in others when they really shouldn’t be in a restaurant. So we simply avoided them.

They would go to the stores with us, to Mass, to other people’s homes, etc…but a restaurant isn’t the best thing for children at this age. They stand ZERO chance of “learning anything” at this stage in a restaurant, given the nearness to others, closed space etc.

It’s not helping the child to take them, not helping other people in the restaurant, and it’s not helping the parent a bit.

Some parents go to restaurants as if it’s their right to be there, and to heck with any patrons who were hoping ot hold a pleasant conversation. Those parents aren’t loving - that is, arent’ sacrificing for - anyone!

But these sort of parents seem to need their comforting.
 
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Edward_H said:
And maybe there needs to be a bit of a quiet, calm response in the parent, perhaps not very talkative, a bit less warm, certainly no doting, a small distance introduced. Not mad, not angry but just a bit of a distance. No shaming, no hystrionics, but control, calm, deliberation.

So that the change can’t be interpreted as a real reward.
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A lot of kids just don’t have that degree of social sensitivity or interpersonal awareness.

Younger autism spectrum kids won’t register that at all–it’s too subtle.
 
My kids behave better in restaurants than drunk adults and have more coherent conversations. Depending on the kind of restaurant, people might be taking their kids there to eat because they are travelling and need a place to eat, or because of a family event. Obviously, the Melting Pot is not an appropriate place for a family with kids who might cause a disruption, but adults who need silence to have a conversation probably shouldn’t go to Cracker Barrel either. There’s plenty of restaurants for every family’s needs.
 
They don’t have to be playing on a playground for it to be a reward. When a child is bored to tears, just getting out of the environment that is stressing them out is the reward. Being able to walk, even a short distance, is a reward for a child who is freaking out from being made to sit still too long. If being squirmy and noisy results in a break from being in Mass, it reinforces those behaviors. If squirming means they have to sit through Mass AND they get a consequence afterward, not so much.
 
Pop-psych.

A truly bright and developed child is never bored to tears.

It’s the made-curious children that are often “bored to tears”.

Curiosity is a vice.
Studiosity is the virtue.
 
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Not even close to true and irrelevant as not everyone has a “truly bright and developed child” anyway. I’ve taught elementary children for over a decade. The fast majority of young children are the most intelligent, curious, good at problem solving, highly-verbal and sociable, also struggle to remain perfectly still and quit in kindergarten and all the way up to 2nd grade. This is especially true for boys. Kids who excel at being still and quiet often do so because they haven’t got much to say.
 
You’re not getting the problem.

Curiosity is actually a VICE, classically understood/taught. It’s the weakness of gving superficial attention to matters.

A virtue called “studiosity” is the strength of mind in taking a topic to depth, staying on the task not letting one’s attention move simply because of pangs of so called boredom.

It’s a crime that teachers don’t undertand the distinction and instead wax proud about little children being curious!
 
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Actually I don’t think most Christian counselors have much competence in classical matters of the soul, of the will, of the intellect, of virtues/vices, dominion over the appetites.
 
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