Love Me or Burn!

[uncompleted99]

(n.b. I did the “Ask the Apologist” first, heard no reply for two weeks, so now I am here. I presume that is the correct path. If not, I apologize. )

It seems to me that humans are forced to play a game against our will: Love Me or Burn

This game is called life. According to you catholics, that is the purpose of life on earth - to prove your love for God or suffer eternal torture. Love Me or Burn!

It is unjust to force people to play any game without a real “opt-out” option.

(Arguably, one cannot be asked before one is created, so on the surface my complaint is illogical. But, your god is the lord of history - of space and time, right? Therefore, there is at least one option that could be offered: to never have existed.)

If we are forced to play this game against our will and with no real “opt-out” option, then this game seems like the creation of a sick, sadistic mind. The game itself is evil. Imagine parents doing this to their children - love me or die! Or even, love me or get out of my house! Neither of which is good. But, that is exactly what your god is doing and, literally, on an infinite scale.

Incredibly, you believe this is the entire purpose of your existence: to brainwash yourself into loving an entity that will burn you forever if you don’t.

Love Me or Burn!

Am I wrong?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

You work with certain assumptions and draw conclusions from them.

Your assumptions are based on what? Your own beliefs? What others have said?

When someone faces difficulties like this, I always believe it is best to get back to basics.

Do you believe in God?

Your statements lead me to think you don’t, as such a God would be evil and petty in the extreme.

In fact, you seem to understand, almost by instinct, that God should in fact be good.

So why not build on THAT assumption?

Why not, for the sake of argument, give God the benefit of the doubt. Presume that others have been giving him a bad rap.

Can you not find any indications that God must be good?

 

[Flagstone]

(n.b. I did the “Ask the Apologist” first, heard no reply for two weeks, so now I am here. I presume that is the correct path. If not, I apologize. )

It seems to me that humans are forced to play a game against our will: Love Me or Burn

This game is called life. According to you catholics, that is the purpose of life on earth - to prove your love for God or suffer eternal torture. Love Me or Burn!

It is unjust to force people to play any game without a real “opt-out” option.

(Arguably, one cannot be asked before one is created, so on the surface my complaint is illogical. But, your god is the lord of history - of space and time, right? Therefore, there is at least one option that could be offered: to never have existed.)

If we are forced to play this game against our will and with no real “opt-out” option, then this game seems like the creation of a sick, sadistic mind. The game itself is evil. Imagine parents doing this to their children - love me or die! Or even, love me or get out of my house! Neither of which is good. But, that is exactly what your god is doing and, literally, on an infinite scale.

Incredibly, you believe this is the entire purpose of your existence: to brainwash yourself into loving an entity that will burn you forever if you don’t.

Love Me or Burn!

Am I wrong?

I hope your wrong, but it certainly seems that many people here are saying that is the true nature of reality. It seems horrifying.

 

[prometheus1]

(n.b. I did the “Ask the Apologist” first, heard no reply for two weeks, so now I am here. I presume that is the correct path. If not, I apologize. )

It seems to me that humans are forced to play a game against our will: Love Me or Burn

This game is called life. According to you catholics, that is the purpose of life on earth - to prove your love for God or suffer eternal torture. Love Me or Burn!

It is unjust to force people to play any game without a real “opt-out” option.

(Arguably, one cannot be asked before one is created, so on the surface my complaint is illogical. But, your god is the lord of history - of space and time, right? Therefore, there is at least one option that could be offered: to never have existed.)

If we are forced to play this game against our will and with no real “opt-out” option, then this game seems like the creation of a sick, sadistic mind. The game itself is evil. Imagine parents doing this to their children - love me or die! Or even, love me or get out of my house! Neither of which is good. But, that is exactly what your god is doing and, literally, on an infinite scale.

Incredibly, you believe this is the entire purpose of your existence: to brainwash yourself into loving an entity that will burn you forever if you don’t.

Love Me or Burn!

Am I wrong?

You seem to have a very polarised view of God. And you are wrong in stating that the ‘game is the creation of a sick, sadistic mind’…God gives people every chance to enter into His Kingdom…in fact He actually encourages it, so much that He sent Jesus to suffer for us all.
There is another thought, that it is only those who accept the Number of the Beast who will burn in eternal torment…the rest of us unbelievers will just cease to exist.

Now, I am a staunch atheist, so these views are not mine…but I am on a Catholic forum to learn…if I pose a question, I do not use inflammatory phrases…would you be offended if I called someone you loved sick and sadistic? I think so.
Please be respectful in the phrases you use…and you will learn a lot,
and if you really hate religion, then there are plenty of atheist forums on which you can post.

 

[fhansen]

(n.b. I did the “Ask the Apologist” first, heard no reply for two weeks, so now I am here. I presume that is the correct path. If not, I apologize. )

It seems to me that humans are forced to play a game against our will: Love Me or Burn

This game is called life. According to you catholics, that is the purpose of life on earth - to prove your love for God or suffer eternal torture. Love Me or Burn!

It is unjust to force people to play any game without a real “opt-out” option.

(Arguably, one cannot be asked before one is created, so on the surface my complaint is illogical. But, your god is the lord of history - of space and time, right? Therefore, there is at least one option that could be offered: to never have existed.)

If we are forced to play this game against our will and with no real “opt-out” option, then this game seems like the creation of a sick, sadistic mind. The game itself is evil. Imagine parents doing this to their children - love me or die! Or even, love me or get out of my house! Neither of which is good. But, that is exactly what your god is doing and, literally, on an infinite scale.

Incredibly, you believe this is the entire purpose of your existence: to brainwash yourself into loving an entity that will burn you forever if you don’t.

Love Me or Burn!

Am I wrong?

To not love God is to burn-and we already taste this hunger, this dissatisfaction, in this life. We’re here to find out how to satisfy it, in fact, how to achieve the happiness God desires for us-and we desire for ourselves-by coming to align ourselves with His perfect will, with the order of the universe IOW. Man’s already split off from this will, divided within himself, lost, half-filled with angst, out of sync with nature, including his own nature, as our newspapers attest to daily along with our own often flawed relationships with others.

 

[CountrySteve]

You seem to have a very polarised view of God. And you are wrong in stating that the ‘game is the creation of a sick, sadistic mind’…God gives people every chance to enter into His Kingdom…in fact He actually encourages it, so much that He sent Jesus to suffer for us all.
There is another thought, that it is only those who accept the Number of the Beast who will burn in eternal torment…the rest of us unbelievers will just cease to exist.

Now, I am a staunch atheist, so these views are not mine…but I am on a Catholic forum to learn…if I pose a question, I do not use inflammatory phrases…would you be offended if I called someone you loved sick and sadistic? I think so.
Please be respectful in the phrases you use…and you will learn a lot,
and if you really hate religion, then there are plenty of atheist forums on which you can post.

Actually from a Catholic perspective that last line is not true. When a soul dies, there is whats called the general Judgment where Christ will judge the soul and will sentence them to Heaven or Hell (or Purgatory for a time). Then at the second Coming there is whats known as the Last Judgment, Christ’s Dies Irae, were every human being who has lived will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ and will receive there sentence. His faithful, to everlasting life, the souls who rejected Him and His teachings, to the ‘eternal fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth’. No soul ceases to be. Are souls are immortal.

Pax and welcome to the forum

 

[prometheus1]

Actually from a Catholic perspective that last line is not true. When a soul dies, there is whats called the general Judgment where Christ will judge the soul and will sentence them to Heaven or Hell (or Purgatory for a time). Then at the second Coming there is whats known as the Last Judgment, Christ’s Dies Irae, were every human being who has lived will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ and will receive there sentence. His faithful, to everlasting life, the souls who rejected Him and His teachings, to the ‘eternal fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth’. No soul ceases to be. Are souls are immortal.

Pax and welcome to the forum

Thank you for your explanation, I did not know that…I was using a generalisation of all Christian faiths…but that is why I like this site…I learn something new each time I log in

 

[iholdjesusclose]

It is true that if Hitler says “love me or die” and throws people into an oven if they don’t obey or convert to Naziism, we rightly call him a monster. If parents produce a child for the sole purpose of worshipping and singing to them, and burn him or her in the family fireplace if they don’t, we call them monsters. Yet Yahweh gets a free pass, because he’s “Omnipotent”. This is the position of the spineless weaklings who would rather lick Hitler’s boots than die at his hands. The difference being the torment of Yahweh is eternal. This is simply a disgusting idea. It is born out of a Bronze-age tribal religion of ignorant desert nomads who imposed such foul dogmas to keep people in line. And don’t give me that “People send themselves to hell” nonsense, either. No one defying Hitler walked willfully into a concentration camp, and no one is going to jump willfully into the Lake of Fire, either. “God Fearing”, likewise, has been recently re-defined to mean “to be in awe” rather than being afraid of Him. Again, this is proven nonsense by other Biblical passages, such as “Fear not him who can kill the body only, but him who can kill both the body and soul in Hell, that is the Lord”. The very idea of Hell is a sick, sadistic and absurd dogma designed to control you. Stop being cowards and get on with your lives.

 

[Richard_White]

Simply put, your idea is WRONG!

God created us to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him. This is why we exist. Our purpose on the earth is to know God, to love God, and to serve God, our Almighty Master and King, Who is in Heaven. True fulfillment and happiness can only come from Him. Vitrue and goodness only come from Him. Your own life only comes from Him. We NEED God and can do NOTHING without Him. We should want to love Him because of all that He has done for us, given us life, happiness, etc., even becoming man to die for us and our sins and bring us back to Him.

Now, He won’t force you to love Him or to be with Him during your life. That is your choice. He gave you free will. However, if you choose not to love Him, then you wil, be punished, because that is why we are here: to praise God in His Kingdom.

May God bless you and lead you to the Truths of Catholicism!

 

[Schatzl]

It is true that if Hitler says “love me or die” and throws people into an oven if they don’t obey or convert to Naziism, we rightly call him a monster. If parents produce a child for the sole purpose of worshipping and singing to them, and burn him or her in the family fireplace if they don’t, we call them monsters. Yet Yahweh gets a free pass, because he’s “Omnipotent”. This is the position of the spineless weaklings who would rather lick Hitler’s boots than die at his hands. The difference being the torment of Yahweh is eternal. This is simply a disgusting idea. It is born out of a Bronze-age tribal religion of ignorant desert nomads who imposed such foul dogmas to keep people in line. And don’t give me that “People send themselves to hell” nonsense, either. No one defying Hitler walked willfully into a concentration camp, and no one is going to jump willfully into the Lake of Fire, either. “God Fearing”, likewise, has been recently re-defined to mean “to be in awe” rather than being afraid of Him. Again, this is proven nonsense by other Biblical passages, such as “Fear not him who can kill the body only, but him who can kill both the body and soul in Hell, that is the Lord”. The very idea of Hell is a sick, sadistic and absurd dogma designed to control you. Stop being cowards and get on with your lives.

All of the Catholic faithful choose to love God. Not out of fear, but out of true love. God the Father gave us His only Begotten Son to die for our sins on the Cross. God the Son willingly gave His life for us humans. God didn’t create us for the sole purpose of worshipping Him. We choose to worship Him. Also, if you would be even We are not forced to burn in Hell. Rather, this is a choice. If we live in a way that distances us from God, then that must mean that we don’t want to be with God for eternity. After all, why would a Being like God force us to be with Him for eternity if we don’t love Him? Hell is what total separation from God is. There is no way to sugarcoat it. Hell is separation from God, and it does exist. But, so does Heaven. It’s your choice where you want to go, I’m just sayin’.

God offers us thousands of chances for forgiveness through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, so it’s up to us to accept God’s mercy and forgiveness.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Dear IholdJesusclose… I wish you did.

Let’s look at the Beatitudes that Jesus gave us…

The text of St. Matthew runs as follows:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. (Verse 4)
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

Let’s say there was no God, and when we die, that’s the end of it. Personally, I would hope that everyone on the planet lived this, that they would be meek, (opposite of bully), that they would be merciful, have a clean heart (no duplicity), that they would seek justice (not looking to rob, murder, lie, cheat). When a person is grieving, that others would comfort them. Who doesn’t want peace in this world? Within families, neighborhoods, countries? That’s really entering into what is best about being human and not just an animal. That would be a life well lived.

Frankly, if someone decided not to do evil because they were afraid of going to jail (or going to hell), I can live with that. I wish more people were afraid of that. There is a lot of humanity wasting behind bars, and a lot of taxpayers money spent on feeding and housing perfectly able men and women. If they didn’t believe in God, I wish they at least believed in hell. We could have used that energy to build up instead of tear down.

 

[JRKH]

(n.b. I did the “Ask the Apologist” first, heard no reply for two weeks, so now I am here. I presume that is the correct path. If not, I apologize. )

Welcome to the forums. Sorry you hadn’t received an answer in the “Ask an Apologist” section. We’ll see what we can do. You have already received some wonderful replies…
AmbroseSJ has asked some very good questions which I think are a wonderful place to start a fulfilling discussion.
That said…I’d like to add a thought or three…

It seems to me that humans are forced to play a game against our will: Love Me or Burn

This game is called life. According to you Catholics, that is the purpose of life on earth - to prove your love for God or suffer eternal torture. Love Me or Burn!

Actually I have never heard it taught this way - and I was raised Catholic. The purpose in life is to come to know God…To Trust him…to Love him and to Love our neighbor as ourselves.
So the purpose of our Life is to Love to “Agape” in the Greek - a deep brotherly love.

In doing this we don’t “prove” our Love for God but rather we “develop” our Love for God and all of His Children (to the best of our feeble abilities).

So I think that you are working from a rather limited view of Catholic teaching and goals.

It is unjust to force people to play any game without a real “opt-out” option.

(Arguably, one cannot be asked before one is created, so on the surface my complaint is illogical. But, your god is the lord of history - of space and time, right? Therefore, there is at least one option that could be offered: to never have existed.)

Just for a thought…perhaps this offer DOES exist. If one chooses to opt out and “never exist” how would we ever know? Of course - how does one make an offer to that which does not exist? hhmmmmm…conundrum…:whacky:

If we are forced to play this game against our will and with no real “opt-out” option, then this game seems like the creation of a sick, sadistic mind.
The game itself is evil.

This presumes that the “game” is as you describe it…Yet as I have explained the game is actually quite different.
Abrose SJ has invited you to take a look at things from a different perspective…and I think that would be quite helpful

Imagine parents doing this to their children - love me or die! Or even, love me or get out of my house! Neither of which is good. But, that is exactly what your god is doing and, literally, on an infinite scale.

Imagine a parent giving a child everything in life - even life itself and then having that child hate the parent. Imagine that child defying, denying and in every sense rejecting the parent who has done nothing but love the child, teach them, raise them, set appropriate boundaries etc. See - this analogy can work both ways.
Now to borrow your phrase…This is exactly what those who reject God are doing, and literally, on an infinite scale.

Incredibly, you believe this is the entire purpose of your existence: to brainwash yourself into loving an entity that will burn you forever if you don’t.

No brainwashing necessary - since I believe in the God of Scripture I believe in a God who IS Love and who has, above all else commanded that we Love - Him and each Other…
Why should I reject this? Why should I reject Love???

Love Me or Burn!

Am I wrong?

I am afraid that you are - - Quite wrong…
But in truth, there are many who hold such erroneous views.
We are glad you are here and we can discuss and learn…

Peace
James

 

[uncompleted99]

Thank you all for your interesting responses.

@Flagstone - Yes, I am trying to find out WHY I am wrong. So, far, no luck.

@AmbroseSJ, @Prometheus1, et al -

You miss my point - I must have not made the tertium datur argument explicit. Everyone keeps talking about freewill: I can choose heaven OR hell. But, what if I want to choose a THIRD option: NOT TO PLAY THE GAME? (Knowing I’ll give up heaven, but also negate the risk of hell.)

I gave an example of how that would be possible assuming two things: god is just and would not compel you to play because you have freewill and god is a powerful enough to alter space-time and remove you from it (which, if I understand correctly, he can).

Therefore, my issue is NOT the game itself, but that we are FORCED to play the game. We do NOT have the option to opt-out, and therefore are not truly free.

 

[Kay_Cee]

(n.b. I did the “Ask the Apologist” first, heard no reply for two weeks, so now I am here. I presume that is the correct path. If not, I apologize. )

It seems to me that humans are forced to play a game against our will: Love Me or Burn

This game is called life. According to you catholics, that is the purpose of life on earth - to prove your love for God or suffer eternal torture. Love Me or Burn!

It is unjust to force people to play any game without a real “opt-out” option.

(Arguably, one cannot be asked before one is created, so on the surface my complaint is illogical. But, your god is the lord of history - of space and time, right? Therefore, there is at least one option that could be offered: to never have existed.)

If we are forced to play this game against our will and with no real “opt-out” option, then this game seems like the creation of a sick, sadistic mind. The game itself is evil. Imagine parents doing this to their children - love me or die! Or even, love me or get out of my house! Neither of which is good. But, that is exactly what your god is doing and, literally, on an infinite scale.

Incredibly, you believe this is the entire purpose of your existence: to brainwash yourself into loving an entity that will burn you forever if you don’t.

Love Me or Burn!

Am I wrong?

You are wrong. But I’m amazed that you give the very same argument that I had Lucifer give in my second novel, Nearer the Dawn. In the scene, God explains to the angels that He is going to create Man, and He orders the angels to serve this new creation. Lucifer objects.

Here’s a snippet of that scene:

A growl emanated from Lucifer, its vibrations rippling through the multitude like a shock wave. It exploded into a roar that ripped a jagged schism in the space-time continuum, rending the fabric of space. Beyond the gap swells of energy boiled over a chaotic landscape. Mountains crumbled into valleys. Valleys erupted into mountains. Rivers of fire surged uphill, reversed course, and collided with opposing currents in torrential explosions. Over it all swirled a storm of molten lava. Alpine waves of fire billowed upward, broke, and crashed, sweeping away the landscape before them.

"Lucifer," the Creator said, "you have engendered a Hell. Be careful what you choose here."

"Behold the face of tyranny!" Lucifer thundered. "Is that your idea of choice, Creator? Do what you say or you burn us?"

"I am showing you truth," the Creator said. "Hell is existence without my Love. It is my Love that sustains the beauty and order of things. Without my Love, you have not good but evil. Without it, you have not pleasure but pain. Without it, you have not perfection but chaos. Lucifer, to serve Man is to Love. To choose the opposite is to choose Hell."

Your argument is kind of like being on a boat in the middle of the ocean and then complaining that you can’t jump off the boat without getting wet. The boat is what is keeping you dry, safe, and alive. So, if you reject it, you reject everything that allows you to be that way. Trashing God’s Love is throwing away everything gives you beauty, love, and goodness.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you all for your interesting responses.

@Flagstone - Yes, I am trying to find out WHY I am wrong. So, far, no luck.

@AmbroseSJ, @Prometheus1, et al -

You miss my point - I must have not made the tertium datur argument explicit. Everyone keeps talking about freewill: I can choose heaven OR hell. But, what if I want to choose a THIRD option: NOT TO PLAY THE GAME? (Knowing I’ll give up heaven, but also negate the risk of hell.)

I gave an example of how that would be possible assuming two things: god is just and would not compel you to play because you have freewill and god is a powerful enough to alter space-time and remove you from it (which, if I understand correctly, he can).

Therefore, my issue is NOT the game itself, but that we are FORCED to play the game. We do NOT have the option to opt-out, and therefore are not truly free.

Honestly I think that this is a philosophical argument with no answer.
Even if we remove ALL constraints we would still easily find things that we cannot do - and therefore are not “truly” free.
As a rather obvious - if silly - example…I cannot fly. I do not have that capacity. No matter how much I want to “opt out” of this restriction that nature has placed on me…I cannot. I simply cannot fly. So - regardless of the parameters you try to use…one is never completely and truly “Free” - depending on how tries to define it.

Suppose there WERE a third choice…“to not play”. Would that suffice to offer complete freedom? My guess is maybe yes for you - but no for someone else - - they would want a fourth choice…

So - now - one question that I (and I’m sure God) would want to know the answer to is this…Why would you wish to give up heaven? Forget about hell for the moment…Why would you choose to give up heaven?
I’m truly curious…

Peace
James

 

[PennyinCanada]

Therefore, my issue is NOT the game itself, but that we are FORCED to play the game. We do NOT have the option to opt-out, and therefore are not truly free.

Too bad. You are stuck here with the rest of us.

Play the hand you’re dealt.
*Make the most of it. *

 

[Faxero]

:newidea: Although we are infinitely less intelligent than God, we can still use human logic to better understand him.

God created us to live life, enjoying it to the fullest. The trick is to not live life in a way where we will cause damage to ourselves and others. By causing damage to ourselves and ours, we damage the natural state of the Earth and our relationship with God.

Hell can be considered as a result of a person’s persistence in making choices that damage Earth and its inhabitants.

The are various hints in the bible which suggest that God isn’t an all-out tyrant. See Numbers 32, The Request of Gad and Reuben. :bible1:

The tribes of Gad and Reuben requested that they remain in a large grazing country in exchange for not entering the Promised Land. Through Moses, God granted that request. There was of course a compromise, but this event shows that God can be flexible, unlike the average tyrant!

We human beings govern God, our creator, via our decisions. Even though God’s sovereignty can’t be weakened, his willingness to further bless his creation can increase or decrease as a result of our decisions, both big and small. In this sense, we have influence over God.

:newidea:

Human beings can further enhance their love and appreciation for themselves by glorifying themselves through their Creator.

By glorifying God through our decisions, we are in essence also glorifying ourselves, recognizing that we are the climax of God’s creativity and expressing gratitude to him for granting us a high status in creation. After God and the Angels, we are the third most powerful creatures in existence!!! (Thank God I wasn’t born a cockroach!)

 

[Julian0404]

(n.b. I did the “Ask the Apologist” first, heard no reply for two weeks, so now I am here. I presume that is the correct path. If not, I apologize. )

It seems to me that humans are forced to play a game against our will: Love Me or Burn

This game is called life. According to you catholics, that is the purpose of life on earth - to prove your love for God or suffer eternal torture. Love Me or Burn!

It is unjust to force people to play any game without a real “opt-out” option.

(Arguably, one cannot be asked before one is created, so on the surface my complaint is illogical. But, your god is the lord of history - of space and time, right? Therefore, there is at least one option that could be offered: to never have existed.)

If we are forced to play this game against our will and with no real “opt-out” option, then this game seems like the creation of a sick, sadistic mind. The game itself is evil. Imagine parents doing this to their children - love me or die! Or even, love me or get out of my house! Neither of which is good. But, that is exactly what your god is doing and, literally, on an infinite scale.

Incredibly, you believe this is the entire purpose of your existence: to brainwash yourself into loving an entity that will burn you forever if you don’t.

Love Me or Burn!

Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong.
In your perfect world there would be three options: 1. Reject GOD’s plan for you before you are created 2. Reject GOD’s plan for you after you have been created 3. Embrace GOD’s plan for you.

In the first option, your “opt-out” plan, you reject the love of the HOLY SPIRIT, before you even know the joy and love of the HOLY SPIRIT for you and the plans to bring you into heaven. The sole offense which is unforgivable according to the teaching of JESUS is to reject the HOLY SPIRIT. So, you decision logic is flawed when you would prefer to perform this sin, as an “opt-out” plan. This reflects that you understanding of GOD has been formed improperly, it does not reflect that GOD is rejecting you or abandoning you to hell.

Your second plan, to reject GOD while you are living life also reflects an attitude of ignorance toward knowing GOD’s plans for you, and HIS love for you. Sadly, there are millions of people who make this choice, but you sound as-if you are still seeking the TRUTH, and JESUS said “I am the TRUTH. . . .” and HE also taught us that if we knock HE will open, if we ask HE will provide and if we seek we will find HIM. Do not feel abandoned to your improperly formed decision logic of “forced love”, and instead simply ask GOD, to please help you know HIS plans for you. Ask and it shall be given.

Your third plan is the plan GOD desires you to “chose”, not to be forced into. If you do not wish to know HIM, love HIM and serve HIM, then HE will allow you that choice. But to use your refusal as an attack against HIS true love of you, reflects that you are leaning toward accepting the false beliefs of unbelievers that we should be able to live without consequences and still receive the full blessing and acceptance of GOD. Even in your secular world if you kill someone there is a terrible punishment, or if you damage or hurt someone there is a price to pay. How can you not extrapolate the simplicity of the secular laws which you know and live by with a comparable approach to knowing and loving GOD. Our secular laws have been based upon HIS laws.

Do not rest in your misunderstanding. Knock at HIS door, Ask for HIS guidance, and seek HIS truth and you will live with HIM forever in joy.

 

[Richard_White]

You miss my point - I must have not made the tertium datur argument explicit. Everyone keeps talking about freewill: I can choose heaven OR hell. But, what if I want to choose a THIRD option: NOT TO PLAY THE GAME? (Knowing I’ll give up heaven, but also negate the risk of hell.)

I gave an example of how that would be possible assuming two things: god is just and would not compel you to play because you have freewill and god is a powerful enough to alter space-time and remove you from it (which, if I understand correctly, he can).

Therefore, my issue is NOT the game itself, but that we are FORCED to play the game. We do NOT have the option to opt-out, and therefore are not truly free.

As others have noted, TOO BAD! This is not the way it works.

God has created us and everything that exists, everything that has ever existed, and everything that ever will exist. He has a Divine Will and plan for all of us and for everything. The way that it is is the way that He has outlined and created, meaning that it is perfectly just, good, and correct. For you to deny it is an insult to God and His Holy Will.

Yes, God is all-powerful and can do absolutely anything; however, that does not mean that He will.

Also, it is not a game. It is life.

Finally, as others have also noted, why woul you want to give up Heaven. Heaven is a sharing in God’s glory: eternal Love, Light, Happiness, Life, and Grace. Saint Teresa of Avila once saw a vision of the Hand of God. That alone, she said, was so glorious and great that she was willing top undergo every possible suffering on earth until the end of time just to see that Hand one more time.

If you only had some faith, then you woukd not be saying that false things you have been saying.

I hope and pray that you will listen to God’s call to the Truths of Catholicism!

 

[Dorothy]

You seem to have a very polarised view of God. And you are wrong in stating that the ‘game is the creation of a sick, sadistic mind’…God gives people every chance to enter into His Kingdom…in fact He actually encourages it, so much that He sent Jesus to suffer for us all.
There is another thought, that it is only those who accept the Number of the Beast who will burn in eternal torment…the rest of us unbelievers will just cease to exist.

Now, I am a staunch atheist, so these views are not mine…but I am on a Catholic forum to learn…if I pose a question, I do not use inflammatory phrases…would you be offended if I called someone you loved sick and sadistic? I think so.
Please be respectful in the phrases you use…and you will learn a lot,
and if you really hate religion, then there are plenty of atheist forums on which you can post.

I very much like your respectful post!

I do need to point out that Catholics do not believe in “the rest of us unbelievers will just cease to exist”.
We do not believe in annihilation of those who do not believe.

The Lord respects our choices. He shows us in so many ways how much He loves us, and He will not force our will. He desires that we choose Him freely. He does not torture us if we do not accept Him; if we do not choose Him we are choosing to be in darkness. It is awful to be without Him, the author of all good. I think that it would be “torture” to be without Him. Unfortunately those descriptions put in a certain way make it sound like the Lord is the bad guy. That is the twisted thinking of the evil one.

Also, it says in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that those who have not yet heard of Christ will be judged according to the “light” they received from Him, and how they responded to that light.