Love Me or Burn!

[bubba1358]

Yep. But, even so, I think that this notion speaks of grave injustice.

Actually, I completely agree with you. Thanks for the very lucid example, BTW - much better than I could have done, and a very apt analogy to compare it to the denied opportunity to love on a marital level. How appropriate. :clapping:

My attempt at the “thought experiment” helps drive your points home, I believe. Yes, it is possible to imagine an opt-out option. No, it does not comply with true justice.

To the OP - I was hoping to hear your most recent thoughts.

 

[underacloud]

uncompleted99,

You’ve received a lot of replies so far, some providing a bit of food for thought, and some really just dancing round the real question. To be clear, it is a very fair question to ask. It is a question that has a rich history of debate among Catholic and other Christian philosophers, so you are in good company.

From the Church’s perspective the matter is settled - hell is real and it is eternal for those who go there (noting that the Church has never actually said anyone has gone or will go there). But this is based on revelation rather than philosophical reasoning. You will find this unsatisfying, and that is understandable.

But as another poster asked, even if you didn’t have this opt out, and you are face with either heaven or hell, then what? The only logical choice is to try to get into heaven, even if you feel God is unjust in forcing this choice.

 

[ptisme]

(n.b. I did the “Ask the Apologist” first, heard no reply for two weeks, so now I am here. I presume that is the correct path. If not, I apologize. )

It seems to me that humans are forced to play a game against our will: Love Me or Burn

This game is called life. According to you catholics, that is the purpose of life on earth - to prove your love for God or suffer eternal torture. Love Me or Burn!

It is unjust to force people to play any game without a real “opt-out” option.

(Arguably, one cannot be asked before one is created, so on the surface my complaint is illogical. But, your god is the lord of history - of space and time, right? Therefore, there is at least one option that could be offered: to never have existed.)

If we are forced to play this game against our will and with no real “opt-out” option, then this game seems like the creation of a sick, sadistic mind. The game itself is evil. Imagine parents doing this to their children - love me or die! Or even, love me or get out of my house! Neither of which is good. But, that is exactly what your god is doing and, literally, on an infinite scale.

Incredibly, you believe this is the entire purpose of your existence: to brainwash yourself into loving an entity that will burn you forever if you don’t.

Love Me or Burn!

Am I wrong?

Here’s my two cents. We are not of this earth. We are from heaven. We are visitors down here with the goal of getting back home to the love of God and his warmth. Whenever we are suffering and having a hard time dealing with life down here we will always feel better when we move toward a stronger relationship with God. Hell was not created by God. Rather it was created by Satan. The reason there is so much suffering in hell is because people there have turned their back on God and there can only be despair when we are away from God. The fire there is the fire of self torment that those people put upon themselves.

You may not have asked to have been born but you were. There is no door number three. You either choose God and his love and warmth or you choose despair. God is our father. Imagine how unhappy our own children would be if they ran away and never chose to experience the love we have for them…

 

[Pablopedro]

(n.b. I did the “Ask the Apologist” first, heard no reply for two weeks, so now I am here. I presume that is the correct path. If not, I apologize. )

It seems to me that humans are forced to play a game against our will: Love Me or Burn

This game is called life. According to you catholics, that is the purpose of life on earth - to prove your love for God or suffer eternal torture. Love Me or Burn!

It is unjust to force people to play any game without a real “opt-out” option.

(Arguably, one cannot be asked before one is created, so on the surface my complaint is illogical. But, your god is the lord of history - of space and time, right? Therefore, there is at least one option that could be offered: to never have existed.)

If we are forced to play this game against our will and with no real “opt-out” option, then this game seems like the creation of a sick, sadistic mind. The game itself is evil. Imagine parents doing this to their children - love me or die! Or even, love me or get out of my house! Neither of which is good. But, that is exactly what your god is doing and, literally, on an infinite scale.

Incredibly, you believe this is the entire purpose of your existence: to brainwash yourself into loving an entity that will burn you forever if you don’t.

Love Me or Burn!

Am I wrong?

By opt-out you are asking why God cannot un-create somebody or completely destoy them. (I believe). Yet are you not then asking God to contradict his own will? To sin against himself? Having made the decision to create a person he is now to (outside of time) un-create that person. Yet how does that un-creation not affect all people who have had any sort of interaction with you in their life. Does he then un-create that part of their lives as well? And if he completely destroys you, i.e. wiping you out of existence does he not then contradict himself and his own will and nature as Creator?