Love of G-d and/or Fear of Hell or Death (Oblivion)?

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I hear what you saying, however I have read a few of the older Quaker writtings from Penns era and then from Russia with Leo Tolsey. Has this changed? I assumed from what I read they all were pretty much strickly Bible teaching NT?
I’m sure there are many Friends who see heaven as a “reward” for their life here on Earth. My meeting uses the Faith and Practice published by Philadelphia Yearly Meeting…you would be hard pressed to find a reference to “heaven” and/or “heavenly rewards” in it. You would not find too many Friends in my Yearly Meeting “excited” about the “next life”…this life has enough to be excited about.

I’m sure Friend William spoke of heaven as he wrote “No Cross, No Crown”…Friend William stated once…“He that does good for good’s sake seeks neither paradise nor reward, but he is sure of both in the end”…So, for me, heaven isn’t a concern…I am in Good Hands…and I will accept what the Father wills in the matter…whether it be “oblivion” or joining back with the Presence…or exist in some ethereal state…this life is what is important to me…the “next life” will take care of itself.
 
Are your religious beliefs contingent to a certain degree on your fear of Hell or death (oblivion), dependent on your particular religion?

What makes Judaism so difficult at times is not so much the hundreds of commandments G-d tells us to follow, but the lack of certainty regarding the existence of an afterlife, something that neither Christianity nor Islam has to contend with. While present-day Orthodox Judaism, based on Pharisaic tradition, does, for the most part, believe in an afterlife, there are no definitive answers according to the Torah or the Tanakh in general (Hebrew Bible/Old Testament), and certainly no description of any particulars with regard to Heaven or Hell. There seems to have been an evolution in Jewish thought expressed in its Oral Law (Tradition) as well as Written Law, on this issue: from the concept of Sheol, a dark underground “place” where all souls go, both good and evil; to Gehinnom, first defined as a place where only the wicked go and where their souls are annihilated, and then taking on the meaning of Purgatory, where most souls go for purification before entering Heaven. However, there are still different viewpoints concerning the afterlife even among Orthodox Jews, let alone other views in Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist branches of Judaism.

One of the reasons why it is believed by Jews that the Torah is so vague about the existence of an afterlife is to contrast Judaism from the ancient Egyptian religions, which seemed to have been obsessed with it. Another reason I think is so that we can focus on love of G-d rather than being preoccupied with our own salvation, as well as that of our loved ones, including family, friends, and pets. Christianity and its doctrine of salvation through Jesus changed the focus (of course, not entirely) from the here and now to the afterlife and Islam followed suit in its own way.

So, after all this preamble, my main question is how much of your love of G-d, whatever your religious belief–Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Quaker, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Shintoist, Confucian, Native American, Pagan, Baha’i, Zoroastrian, etc.–is based on your love of G-d alone and how much is contingent on your fear of Hell or death? Would you love G-d just the same even if there were no afterlife reward? Try to be as honest as you can.

This thread might have been part of the Philosophy Forum as well; however, I wanted to elicit ideas from a variety of religious beliefs.
Fear of God is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Speaking of holy fear, which is different than afraid-of-the-dark kind of fear. It is the kind of fear you have that caused you to do things for those you love, out of fear that you could lose them. We can’t lose God, He is always there, but we can lose our communion with Him. This is what sin does.

All the Christian virtues are based on the ten commandments, viewed in the light of the beatitudes. Love God, and love thy neighbor as thyself, are the greatest commandments, which encompass what is laid out in the ten commandments.

Christians do not believe we are saved by the law, but rather it was given to Moses for the perfection of the Hebrews. We are not able to perfect ourselves, so God, out of love for mankind, sent His Son. He is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. God only desires our love in return. Actions, coming from love, is perfection in action. St. Paul taught, we don’t know how to love as we ought. It is a tension, of sorts, that when felt can spur acts of reconciliation.

Personally, I don’t fear going to a place called hell, I fear more being separated from God (which would be the definition of hell). Not because of God, but because of myself. I pray often for Jesus to keep me with Him, because, I need Him to do that. Of course, the Cross is the evidence that He already has.

Hope that helps.
 
Friend, if you believe that your “eternal destiny” is the entire reason you were created…I’m good with it…I just am not concerned of my “eternal destiny”…I am in Good Hands whether I face “oblivion” or live in the Presence for eternity…“now is the accepted time…today is the day of salvation”…“The Kingdom of God is within you”…we live now in the Kingdom of God…we don’t have to wait for it to be established…it is now present among us if we only “see”.🙂
"If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."
- 1 Cor 15:19

What in the world do you believe the resurrection was all about, Publisher? For what did Christ come to save us? Why did Christ say to the “good thief” “Today you will be with me in Paradise”? I feel sorry for you and all who follow your beliefs. You are one of the most polite and delightful posters on this forum. It saddens me that you have no hope in the resurrection.

God bless.

Steve
 
"If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."
- 1 Cor 15:19

What in the world do you believe the resurrection was all about, Publisher? For what did Christ come to save us? Why did Christ say to the “good thief” “Today you will be with me in Paradise”? I feel sorry for you and all who follow your beliefs. You are one of the most polite and delightful posters on this forum. It saddens me that you have no hope in the resurrection.

God bless.

Steve
Friend, you read too much into what I wrote…I do not believe in order to get some heavenly reward…I believe because it make my life better NOW…NOW is all I have to see with my eyes…eternity will take care of itself…I exist NOW within eternity…my hope is in the Lord…to make this life good…to bring peace and comfort to those in this life who have no hope…to be “Jesus” for them…

From what I have read here many see the only reason people serve God is to get a reward OR to escape some punishment they fear…read Friend William Penn’s statement I highlighted…that is the essence of my beliefs on the matter of the afterlife…if oblivion is all that faces us…I still would serve the Lord because living a good life is reward in and of itself…living in peace and joy…finding comfort in simplicity…“he has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son.”…eternity begins now…it is not some future hope I long for…I love this life…and there was a time when I wanted to die and end it…I have Life now…abundant life…

Friend William also wrote…"True godliness does not turn men out of the world, but enables them to live better in it and excites their endeavors to mend it.”

He also wrote as stated above…"He that does good for good’s sake seeks** neither paradise nor reward**, but he is sure of both in the end”

The “hereafter” will take care of itself…I’m not concerned about what happens when I die…what is before me NOW is my concern…I’m in Good Hands.🙂

To the point of the original question…“fear of hell” isn’t a reason why I serve the Lord.
 
Friend, you read too much into what I wrote…I do not believe in order to get some heavenly reward…I believe because it make my life better NOW…NOW is all I have to see with my eyes…eternity will take care of itself…I exist NOW within eternity…my hope is in the Lord…to make this life good…to bring peace and comfort to those in this life who have no hope…to be “Jesus” for them…

From what I have read here many see the only reason people serve God is to get a reward OR to escape some punishment they fear…read Friend William Penn’s statement I highlighted…that is the essence of my beliefs on the matter of the afterlife…if oblivion is all that faces us…I still would serve the Lord because living a good life is reward in and of itself…living in peace and joy…finding comfort in simplicity…“he has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son.”…eternity begins now…it is not some future hope I long for…I love this life…and there was a time when I wanted to die and end it…I have Life now…abundant life…

Friend William also wrote…"True godliness does not turn men out of the world, but enables them to live better in it and excites their endeavors to mend it.”

He also wrote as stated above…"He that does good for good’s sake seeks** neither paradise nor reward**, but he is sure of both in the end”

The “hereafter” will take care of itself…I’m not concerned about what happens when I die…what is before me NOW is my concern…I’m in Good Hands.🙂
 
Are your religious beliefs contingent to a certain degree on your fear of Hell or death (oblivion), dependent on your particular religion?

What makes Judaism so difficult at times is not so much the hundreds of commandments G-d tells us to follow, but the lack of certainty regarding the existence of an afterlife, something that neither Christianity nor Islam has to contend with. While present-day Orthodox Judaism, based on Pharisaic tradition, does, for the most part, believe in an afterlife, there are no definitive answers according to the Torah or the Tanakh in general (Hebrew Bible/Old Testament), and certainly no description of any particulars with regard to Heaven or Hell. There seems to have been an evolution in Jewish thought expressed in its Oral Law (Tradition) as well as Written Law, on this issue: from the concept of Sheol, a dark underground “place” where all souls go, both good and evil; to Gehinnom, first defined as a place where only the wicked go and where their souls are annihilated, and then taking on the meaning of Purgatory, where most souls go for purification before entering Heaven. However, there are still different viewpoints concerning the afterlife even among Orthodox Jews, let alone other views in Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist branches of Judaism.

One of the reasons why it is believed by Jews that the Torah is so vague about the existence of an afterlife is to contrast Judaism from the ancient Egyptian religions, which seemed to have been obsessed with it. Another reason I think is so that we can focus on love of G-d rather than being preoccupied with our own salvation, as well as that of our loved ones, including family, friends, and pets. Christianity and its doctrine of salvation through Jesus changed the focus (of course, not entirely) from the here and now to the afterlife and Islam followed suit in its own way.

So, after all this preamble, my main question is how much of your love of G-d, whatever your religious belief–Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Quaker, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Shintoist, Confucian, Native American, Pagan, Baha’i, Zoroastrian, etc.–is based on your love of G-d alone and how much is contingent on your fear of Hell or death? Would you love G-d just the same even if there were no afterlife reward? Try to be as honest as you can.

This thread might have been part of the Philosophy Forum as well; however, I wanted to elicit ideas from a variety of religious beliefs.
I think it’s a share of both.

I certainly fear hell and death, but I am delighted in the promise of Jesus Christ, his holy sacrifice, and God’s eternal love for us. And that makes me love God, apart from any fear of death. The gratitude of my salvation helps me understand that God is unfathomable and all-loving. And that allows me to adore him.
 
Friend, you read too much into what I wrote…I do not believe in order to get some heavenly reward…I believe because it make my life better NOW…NOW is all I have to see with my eyes…eternity will take care of itself…I exist NOW within eternity…my hope is in the Lord…to make this life good…to bring peace and comfort to those in this life who have no hope…to be “Jesus” for them…

From what I have read here many see the only reason people serve God is to get a reward OR to escape some punishment they fear…read Friend William Penn’s statement I highlighted…that is the essence of my beliefs on the matter of the afterlife…if oblivion is all that faces us…I still would serve the Lord because living a good life is reward in and of itself…living in peace and joy…finding comfort in simplicity…“he has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son.”…eternity begins now…it is not some future hope I long for…I love this life…and there was a time when I wanted to die and end it…I have Life now…abundant life…

Friend William also wrote…"True godliness does not turn men out of the world, but enables them to live better in it and excites their endeavors to mend it.”

He also wrote as stated above…"He that does good for good’s sake seeks** neither paradise nor reward**, but he is sure of both in the end”

The “hereafter” will take care of itself…I’m not concerned about what happens when I die…what is before me NOW is my concern…I’m in Good Hands.🙂
If I have misunderstood then please accept my apology. I do not live the way I live only to gain a reward, nor do I live the way I live only out of fear of eternal punishment. In my faith tradition we are to become one with Christ now and to be Christ to all those we encounter. Nevertheless, eternity does not take care of itself. We have this life only in which to live out our Christian lives and our eternal destiny will depend on how we live.

Christ did not come, however, to teach us how to be nice people. There are many nice atheists. He came to save us from our sins so that we might spend eternity with him. So yes, our eternal destiny does figure in the mix, very heavily I might add. Those of us who look to eternity are not necessarily guilty of only living a Christian life because we might get some reward for it. It is not a this “or” that situation. It is a this “and” that situation. I live a Christian life because that is what Christ has asked of us and it brings me much joy. But I also look forward to living in eternal happiness with God.
 
Friend, you read too much into what I wrote…I do not believe in order to get some heavenly reward…I believe because it make my life better NOW…NOW is all I have to see with my eyes…eternity will take care of itself…I exist NOW within eternity…my hope is in the Lord…to make this life good…to bring peace and comfort to those in this life who have no hope…to be “Jesus” for them…

From what I have read here many see the only reason people serve God is to get a reward OR to escape some punishment they fear…read Friend William Penn’s statement I highlighted…that is the essence of my beliefs on the matter of the afterlife…if oblivion is all that faces us…I still would serve the Lord because living a good life is reward in and of itself…living in peace and joy…finding comfort in simplicity…“he has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son.”…eternity begins now…it is not some future hope I long for…I love this life…and there was a time when I wanted to die and end it…I have Life now…abundant life…

Friend William also wrote…"True godliness does not turn men out of the world, but enables them to live better in it and excites their endeavors to mend it.”

He also wrote as stated above…"He that does good for good’s sake seeks** neither paradise nor reward**, but he is sure of both in the end”

The “hereafter” will take care of itself…I’m not concerned about what happens when I die…what is before me NOW is my concern…I’m in Good Hands.🙂
Publisher;

I’ll send you a PM tommorow as I have a few of their works at home. Its been awhile but I know Adin Ballou took his work and elaborated from Quaker works also, and then of course Ghandi in regards to violence. In this regard their teaching had a lasting impact on me. I can’t for the life of me think of the Quaker they all borrowed from. Lexingtion in in my mind but I believe thats wrong. I know as far this its not Penn. All from his era though. Course Ballou came later and was Unitarian I believe.

Amazing how far we traveled from these early Christian teachings though.

I don’t want to to derail the OP though. Talk soon

Peace
 
If I have misunderstood then please accept my apology. I do not live the way I live only to gain a reward, nor do I live the way I live only out of fear of eternal punishment. In my faith tradition we are to become one with Christ now and to be Christ to all those we encounter. Nevertheless, eternity does not take care of itself. We have this life only in which to live out our Christian lives and our eternal destiny will depend on how we live.

Christ did not come, however, to teach us how to be nice people. There are many nice atheists. He came to save us from our sins so that we might spend eternity with him. So yes, our eternal destiny does figure in the mix, very heavily I might add. Those of us who look to eternity are not necessarily guilty of only living a Christian life because we might get some reward for it. It is not a this “or” that situation. It is a this “and” that situation. I live a Christian life because that is what Christ has asked of us and it brings me much joy. But I also look forward to living in eternal happiness with God.
And if those things bring you comfort and joy…wonderful. I don’t worry about eternity…now is what I know.
 
"If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."
- 1 Cor 15:19

What in the world do you believe the resurrection was all about, Publisher? For what did Christ come to save us? Why did Christ say to the “good thief” “Today you will be with me in Paradise”? I feel sorry for you and all who follow your beliefs. You are one of the most polite and delightful posters on this forum. It saddens me that you have no hope in the resurrection.

God bless.

Steve
To destroy the fear of death and the power of death…I have LIFE now…and believing I now share in His Life makes the difference for me…you don’t have to share in my beliefs…you must “own” your beliefs…if they make your life better, more hopeful, your words kinder, your responses more loving, your touch more gentle, your sleep peaceful and your waking joyful, we share much…even though we may not express it with the same words…I don’t need to share your words…nor you mine.🙂
 
Friend, if you believe that your “eternal destiny” is the entire reason you were created…I’m good with it…I just am not concerned of my “eternal destiny”…I am in Good Hands whether I face “oblivion” or live in the Presence for eternity…“now is the accepted time…today is the day of salvation”…“The Kingdom of God is within you”…we live now in the Kingdom of God…we don’t have to wait for it to be established…it is now present among us if we only “see”.🙂
Publisher, how would you reconcile oblivion for us humans with a just and merciful G-d? IOW, if everyone has the same fate–both the good and the evil–where is G-d’s justice? And if no one survives past their mortal physical existence, where is G-d’s mercy? Not that Judaism disagrees with leaving our eternal destiny in G-d’s hands and being more focused on making the here and now a better place by means of following Torah Law in our daily lives, and that a virtuous life is its own reward; but I’m still curious about how you would answer these questions concerning G-d’s justice and mercy.
 
I don’t know that I can answer it…God…the Ineffable…the Eternal Mystery…the Wholly Other is beyond comprehension…I can barely concieve of flying in a space ship to Mars let alone traveling an eternity to a Realm of Light Above Limitless Light.

Perhaps that is where faith comes in…I live a life of faith because I believe “he does all things well” and the Creator and Sustainer of our universe has a concept of justice and mercy greater than anything I can conceive. “The rain falls on the good and the bad alike”…death comes to us all…none of us get’s out of this alive.🙂 So I choose to live a life in faith that offers meaning to this life…if I live only in the memory of those I leave behind…THAT is worth something I think.

For me God’s love and mercy is found in the revelation of Jesus of Nazareth…he lived a life of astounding love and mercy…he loved “extravagantly” and “completely”…he loved even in the face of death and forgave those who visited astounding suffering upon him…he forgave them and loved them from the cross…for me…the life of Jesus of Nazareth answers those questions I have about God…well…perhaps not “answer”…but definitely in Jesus of Nazareth I see God among us…and neither do I understand that…but I choose to live my life in faith…faith that the One who knows me best…loves me most and I can trust in His Justice and Mercy…and if oblivion is our lot…I’ll never know it anyways as I will be “oblivious” to my state…not a great answer I know…but it’s all I have…it is a matter of faith…not knowing…🤷
 
Haven’t read all the replies, so my apologies if this sentiment has already been shared:

I think that love for God is intimately entwined with longing for Heaven. I don’t love God just because I want to go to Heaven; I love Him because He first loved me and He teaches me to love Him more each day. With that growth in love is a desire to be with Him. Being with Him now and being with Him in Heaven are two different things in my mind. One foreshadows the other.

I long for the day when earth and Heaven are joined in perfect union. I ache for the return of the Lord. I am excited for all things to be renewed and set right. This is because I love Him, not because I feel deserving of some reward.

Is Hell a motivating factor in my belief? Again, I don’t think that you can separate love for God from fear of Hell. The idea of eternity apart from Him is utterly terrifying and abhorrent.

This is where I see so much of systematic theology failing. I don’t think you can separate beliefs about God from beliefs about anything else.
 
Haven’t read all the replies, so my apologies if this sentiment has already been shared:

I think that love for God is intimately entwined with longing for Heaven. I don’t love God just because I want to go to Heaven; I love Him because He first loved me and He teaches me to love Him more each day. With that growth in love is a desire to be with Him. Being with Him now and being with Him in Heaven are two different things in my mind. One foreshadows the other.

I long for the day when earth and Heaven are joined in perfect union. I ache for the return of the Lord. I am excited for all things to be renewed and set right. This is because I love Him, not because I feel deserving of some reward.

Is Hell a motivating factor in my belief? Again, I don’t think that you can separate love for God from fear of Hell. The idea of eternity apart from Him is utterly terrifying and abhorrent.

This is where I see so much of systematic theology failing. I don’t think you can separate beliefs about God from beliefs about anything else.
I was raised in the Nazarene church…haven’t been to a Nazarene church for almost 40 years.
 
Haven’t read all the replies, so my apologies if this sentiment has already been shared:

I think that love for God is intimately entwined with longing for Heaven. I don’t love God just because I want to go to Heaven; I love Him because He first loved me and He teaches me to love Him more each day. With that growth in love is a desire to be with Him. Being with Him now and being with Him in Heaven are two different things in my mind. One foreshadows the other.

I long for the day when earth and Heaven are joined in perfect union. I ache for the return of the Lord. I am excited for all things to be renewed and set right. This is because I love Him, not because I feel deserving of some reward.

Is Hell a motivating factor in my belief? Again, I don’t think that you can separate love for God from fear of Hell. The idea of eternity apart from Him is utterly terrifying and abhorrent.

This is where I see so much of systematic theology failing. I don’t think you can separate beliefs about God from beliefs about anything else.
Very well said, Marie!
 
LOL…I was “convinced” a Friend at 19…
Well, dang, I guess I just missed the boat. 🙂

I loved my time at the Friends church. (Side note: it was an Evangelical Friends congregation; I know that there are many stripes within the Friends). Much of what I hold to be true today comes from that very foundational time in my life. One thing I sorely miss is the times of silence during corporate worship. There was something…both settling and electrifying about those times.

But now we’re off topic…
 
Haven’t read all the replies, so my apologies if this sentiment has already been shared:

I think that love for God is intimately entwined with longing for Heaven. I don’t love God just because I want to go to Heaven; I love Him because He first loved me and He teaches me to love Him more each day. With that growth in love is a desire to be with Him. Being with Him now and being with Him in Heaven are two different things in my mind. One foreshadows the other.

I long for the day when earth and Heaven are joined in perfect union. I ache for the return of the Lord. I am excited for all things to be renewed and set right. This is because I love Him, not because I feel deserving of some reward.

Is Hell a motivating factor in my belief? Again, I don’t think that you can separate love for God from fear of Hell. The idea of eternity apart from Him is utterly terrifying and abhorrent.

This is where I see so much of systematic theology failing. I don’t think you can separate beliefs about God from beliefs about anything else.
I couldn’t agree more. 👍👍
 
Holy fear is a loving fear. Of course one must have an initial fear of loss, but that grows into a higher form when virtue is acquired.

You wanted different viewpoints, and so, I offer this playlist.

youtube.com/user/franciscanfriars/search?query=fear

Being Jewish shouldn’t be all that difficult really. You have Moses and the Prophets. That is a really wonderful thing! I will emphathise. I almost always have the same questions and then I receive re-assurance in the form of a woman named Mariam.

He created woman so that Man would not be alone, knowing that soon Man would be outside the garden.

It is good to sit and look at the Eucharist. He is there, even if you do not believe Him to be there transubstantially or consubstantially, as Protestants often believe, but He is there. At the very least He is there at least as much as He is in the parking lot. I, of course, believe that He is in the Loaves of Proposition which is why the priest turns and says Behold! What I am saying is that rest assured that when you put yourself out there for Him, He condescends to you. Realise that He is omnipotent and not just a guy in the sky who really benevolent but ultimately weak. That is a particular temptation I have seen too many folks fall to.

youtu.be/lkq-Fd9TU8k?hd=1

This homily is a good and humorous take on it. youtu.be/rNeyN5-4QCM?hd=1
 
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