Love, Sex and wanting to get married

[Etiamnunc]

A very close friend of mine who just converted to become Catholic, about 8 months ago, was also in a physical relationship with her boy friend, I as her sponsor told her this was wrong and that ultimately she would have to choose God, esp in the Eucharist or her boyfriend, because if she where to continue sleeping with him then she would not be in a state of grace and therefore no Holy Communion. However she continued to fornicate with her boyfriend so does that make the confirmation invalid/null?, even though she went to confession, however with the intention of doing the sin when she got out

So they have been almost living together (although they are only 18) taking turns to spend nights, (plural) at each other houses. Now there excuse for this fornication is that “they love each other” and “it is not the same as anyone else” although they are quick to damm any other couple in college who are in the same boat as them, they do see themselves as intellectually superior.

And so the girl, defends her position with this argument by saying that sex is for man and woman to show love together, and that her conscience is informed and she is following it, even though i have pointed her countless times in the direction of church teaching she ignores it. Also she continues to go up for Holy Communion saying that she is not committing a sin. Now this girl hasn’t had a very good history of relationships, and it is the boys first one. So is her conscience really formed well?

Now they are talking about wanting to get married, so that they can have the spiritual graces to stick together although they will be living miles apart in different university campuses?** Is this the wise thing to do?**

I would appreciate you views on this subject,and tips hints on what I could do apart from ardent prayer to help the souls of these people.
No offense but if you are someone who does not believe in no sex before marriage you should A read your Bible and B not write on this post

 

[Lancer]

First,…I would ask her what part of this quotation of His words…does she think that Our Lord Jesus was saying just to hear himself…

Luke 10:16 (New International Version)

Jesus Sending Out the Seventy Two Disciples

16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Second,…some quotes from the CCC

1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does,* man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right.* It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:
Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . .*** [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ. ***

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and **tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings. **

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55

2039 Ministries should be exercised in a spirit of fraternal service and dedication to the Church, in the name of the Lord. At the same time the conscience of each person should avoid confining itself to individualistic considerations in its moral judgments of the person’s own acts. As far as possible conscience should take account of the good of all, as expressed in the moral law, natural and revealed, and consequently in the law of the Church and in the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium on moral questions. **Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the **Church.

2391 Some today claim a “right to a trial marriage” where there is an intention of getting married later. However firm the purpose of those who engage in premature sexual relations may be, “the fact is that such liaisons can scarcely ensure mutual sincerity and fidelity in a relationship between a man and a woman, nor, especially, can they protect it from inconstancy of desires or whim.” Carnal union is morally legitimate only when a definitive community of life between a man and woman has been established. Human love does not tolerate “trial marriages.” It demands a total and definitive gift of persons to one another.

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, **fornication, **pornography, and homosexual practices.

2518 The sixth beatitude proclaims, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” “Pure in heart” refers to those who have attuned their intellects and wills to the demands of God’s holiness, chiefly in three areas: charity; chastity or sexual rectitude; love of truth and orthodoxy of faith. There is a **connection between purity of heart, of body, and of faith: **The faithful must believe the articles of the Creed “so that by believing they may obey God, by obeying may live well, by living well may purify their hearts, and with pure hearts may understand what they believe.”

Lastly…all you can do is advise her on the Church’s teaching and let her wrestle with it in conscience and discuss it with a priest…but ultimately it is the grace of the Holy Spirit that will convince her…not you or surely not me.

Pax Christi

 

[swimfan09]

For the future, it is very important for RCIA teachers, sponsors, and directors to help candidates discern whether they truly want to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church.

For this young woman, I would say the best start would be to go to the bible. A good website on fornication is

christiananswers.net/dictionary/fornication.html

If this young woman claims that she is a christian and a good Catholic, scripture says otherwise. Both the old testament and the new testament clearly are against fornication.

Also, since she is a teen, Mark Hart’s Life Teen website has a priest that gives good answers - straight talk on this situation. The CC is a great resource, but sometimes it goes over the heads of teens and some adults. Often people who will not believe an actual person, will believe something if it is on the internet.

The other best thing is to suggest that if she things what she is doing is ok, she should have no problem talking about it openly to a priest. He should be able to clarify matters.

Good luck!

 

[1ke]

No, her sinful behavior does not invalidate the Sacrament of Confirmation.

No, her conscience is not well formed.

There is little you can do other than continue to give her what the Church teaches.

 

[yablabo]

However she continued to fornicate with her boyfriend so does that make the confirmation invalid/null?, even though she went to confession, however with the intention of doing the sin when she got out

A lack of proper minister, intent (of minister), matter or form are what invalidate a sacrament. She may very well have made the sacrament illicit by receiving it in a state of mortal sin (if she was in a state of mortal sin) which would mean she blocked the graces of her Confirmation. I doubt, by what you’ve presented, that she prepared herself for the Sacrament of Penance properly (properly as defined by the Council of Trent in Session 14 on the Sacraments of Penance and Extreme Unction), but I don’t know that for certain. She may simply have a weak will and fall repeatedly.

So is her conscience really formed well?

I doubt it by what is presented here.

Now they are talking about wanting to get married, so that they can have the spiritual graces to stick together although they will be living miles apart in different university campuses?** Is this the wise thing to do?**

It’s been said of antiquity that those who fornicate with one another are not likely called to the vocation of marriage with one another. Also, if she is in mortal sin, it would simply be another illicit sacrament…and she would block the graces here as well. She very well could be ignorant as well (though I do not say it with certitude) of what is necessary to give consent to marry…and therefore invalidate the sacrament.

I would appreciate you views on this subject,and tips hints on what I could do apart from ardent prayer to help the souls of these people.
No offense but if you are someone who does not believe in no sex before marriage you should A read your Bible and B not write on this post

If she will not hear the Church, treat her as a heathen and publican. (Matt ch. 18, v. 17)

– Nicole

 

[Antrim]

Ask her this question.

If she were to die while having sex with this guy.

Where does she think she would spend all eternity?.

I am sure she knows the answer…

I remember a priest saying one time that there are souls going to Hell every day like Snow Flakes because of sins of thr Flesh.

Antrim

 

[JacktheCatholic]

A very close friend of mine who just converted to become Catholic, about 8 months ago, was also in a physical relationship with her boy friend, I as her sponsor told her this was wrong and that ultimately she would have to choose God, esp in the Eucharist or her boyfriend, because if she where to continue sleeping with him then she would not be in a state of grace and therefore no Holy Communion. However she continued to fornicate with her boyfriend so does that make the confirmation invalid/null?, even though she went to confession, however with the intention of doing the sin when she got out

So they have been almost living together (although they are only 18) taking turns to spend nights, (plural) at each other houses. Now there excuse for this fornication is that “they love each other” and “it is not the same as anyone else” although they are quick to damm any other couple in college who are in the same boat as them, they do see themselves as intellectually superior.

And so the girl, defends her position with this argument by saying that sex is for man and woman to show love together, and that her conscience is informed and she is following it, even though i have pointed her countless times in the direction of church teaching she ignores it. Also she continues to go up for Holy Communion saying that she is not committing a sin. Now this girl hasn’t had a very good history of relationships, and it is the boys first one. So is her conscience really formed well?

Now they are talking about wanting to get married, so that they can have the spiritual graces to stick together although they will be living miles apart in different university campuses?** Is this the wise thing to do?**

I would appreciate you views on this subject,and tips hints on what I could do apart from ardent prayer to help the souls of these people.
No offense but if you are someone who does not believe in no sex before marriage you should A read your Bible and B not write on this post

They are simply living the way society teaches them. We live in a world that says sex is good and abortion is good and that divorce is better for the children. We see movies showing how all these things are good.

But as Christians we learn from the Holy Spirit that we are being lied to. It is only when we embrace God and let Him in do we see the Light. Both of these people are obviously sinning and from what you wrote they do not see what they do as wrong. We are all lied to and the Devil is smarter than any man so no matter how smart we think we are, the Demons are smarter. We should pray for lost sheep like these two and remember that we have a beam to work on ourselves before we can help others with their wood in their eyes.

Prayers to us all…

 

[jmcrae]

A very close friend of mine who just converted to become Catholic, about 8 months ago, was also in a physical relationship with her boy friend, I as her sponsor told her this was wrong and that ultimately she would have to choose God, esp in the Eucharist or her boyfriend, because if she where to continue sleeping with him then she would not be in a state of grace and therefore no Holy Communion. However she continued to fornicate with her boyfriend so does that make the confirmation invalid/null?, even though she went to confession, however with the intention of doing the sin when she got out

Her Confirmation is valid, but she will not begin to receive any graces from it until she puts aside her sins and begins to live as a child of God.

So they have been almost living together (although they are only 18) taking turns to spend nights, (plural) at each other houses. Now there excuse for this fornication is that “they love each other” and “it is not the same as anyone else” although they are quick to damm any other couple in college who are in the same boat as them, they do see themselves as intellectually superior.

You should recommend for them to read Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment together. That’s a nice, very intellectual presentation of why it is that God’s laws apply to all of us equally, without being “preachy” about it. (Just give them the book as a gift and tell them you thought they might enjoy it, since it’s very intellectual. )

Now they are talking about wanting to get married, so that they can have the spiritual graces to stick together although they will be living miles apart in different university campuses?** Is this the wise thing to do?**

Tell her to make sure to discuss her arrangements for marriage with a good priest. Leave it to him to give her the bad news.

 

[Kasey1]

For the future, it is very important for RCIA teachers, sponsors, and directors to help candidates discern whether they truly want to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church.

For this young woman, I would say the best start would be to go to the bible. A good website on fornication is

christiananswers.net/dictionary/fornication.html

If this young woman claims that she is a christian and a good Catholic, scripture says otherwise. Both the old testament and the new testament clearly are against fornication.

Also, since she is a teen, Mark Hart’s Life Teen website has a priest that gives good answers - straight talk on this situation. The CC is a great resource, but sometimes it goes over the heads of teens and some adults. Often people who will not believe an actual person, will believe something if it is on the internet.

The other best thing is to suggest that if she things what she is doing is ok, she should have no problem talking about it openly to a priest. He should be able to clarify matters.

Good luck!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh,I just think so

 

[Prodigal_Son]

If she will not hear the Church, treat her as a heathen and publican. (Matt ch. 18, v. 17)

In my opinion, this is a complete misreading of the Scripture. The original:

15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’** 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.**

But this friend has not sinned against Etiamnunc. Matthew 18 was talking about personal conflicts between individuals. If you want to know how Jesus treated sexual sinners, read the rest of the Gospels.

I’m sure she is condemning herself far more than any of us could condemn her. She needs love, not judgment. Most of all, she needs a friend who will still be there when her boyfriend is not.

 

[larry85704]

Ah shucks.

I had a conversation with a priest once upon a time. We were discussing my life. I told him I did something. He said it was a sin. I said it wasn’t. Now how do you resolve that?

The teaching of the Catholic Church resolves it in stating that the individual is sovereign. So, too bad for the priest. But that is sort of a cop out. Maybe you go see another priest (I did). Other priest, the pastor, said it was not a sin. Well that helps, but it still doesn’t resolve it very well, does it. You can read all the Catechism. You can build a good case why it isn’t sinful. So, the original priest is looking stupider by the minute, isn’t he? No, not really. A good case can be made for what he said too.

How about this. Sin keeps you from God. Killing, adultery, stealing and not keeping holy the Lord’s day are big time sins. Will they all the time, in all cases, keep you from God and heaven? No, we cannot state that. If you read the CCC it states that God judges and He is merciful. Good thing. So, I suppose we can point the old finger at the people who do not act like we do and think they are inferior, or we can look for all the ways they are trying to love God and each other and help them. Somehow I think God would want us to help them. If you think you are helping them by making them feel like sinners by telling them, judging them, watch out. God is watching you to. Do you really think you have your life that together?

 

[jmcrae]

Ah shucks.

I had a conversation with a priest once upon a time. We were discussing my life. I told him I did something. He said it was a sin. I said it wasn’t. Now how do you resolve that?

The teaching of the Catholic Church resolves it in stating that the individual is sovereign.

The Catechism says no such thing. Rather, we are to follow our conscience - the presumption being that our conscience has been formed according to the teachings of the Church. In the areas where the Church speaks clearly, our well-formed consciences will echo that teaching. In the areas where things are not so clear, our well-informed conscience will guide us to a life-giving solution for all involved. But you can’t just go with your personal opinion. Your personal opinion isn’t the same thing as your conscience.

If you think you are helping them by making them feel like sinners by telling them, judging them, watch out. God is watching you to. Do you really think you have your life that together?

Sometimes a bit of shock therapy can open the mind to new thoughts. Some people assume that everyone gets to go to Heaven. Sometimes just the simple reminder that not everyone does (and that in fact the vast majority do not), though a “mean” thing to say, can be the jolt that inspires someone to put his or her life back together.

 

[larry85704]

hi jmcrae

we agree, it is just a matter of our words. You use the term personal opinion and somehow apply that to what i said. I never said it was my personal opinion. but that is fine, yiou can certainly call it that.

point is, my personal opinion was moral, it was based on a well formed conscience. it was one of those things where you must use the idea of secondary effects. the primary action was not sinful. i am sure you are aware of the church’s teaching about how it is ok to kill the robber that breaks into your house and is trying to kill you. basically, it was something like that.

it was unfortunate that the original priest was not up on his understanding of the church’s teaching, but those things happen.

to continue on, in the early church, as the church spread out, men that had multiple wives became Christians. they were not forced to divorce their wives. Catholics can fall into this trap of thinking we have the only good way to live. THAT WE KNOW IT ALL. we need to keep in mind that Jesus came to save, not condemn. yes, it is better to follow the teachings of the Church. but that is a goal. We must always remember that nobody really achieves it.

as far as shock therapy goes, i am 55. i have never seen it actually work. what i have seen make a different in people’s lives is envy. when you have something that other people want, sometimes they will try and get it for themselves. if we let our love for God truly guide our lives then do we have something that other people want?

 

[manualman]

hi jmcrae

… i am 55…

Then you are old enough to have actually learned both the Corporal AND Spiritual Works of Mercy. Think back. Recall that part about admonishing the sinner? It shouldn’t be done in haughty judgement, but not doing it at all is just plain neglect of our christian responsibility.

 

[larry85704]

Again, what i have observed is that some Christian will come along and admonish someone about something. I see that rarely, but i see it.

most of the time the person doing the admonishing is a far more proficient sinner than the person being admonished. sorta like people on this site telling the Pope how to be Catholic. kinda sad.

 

[manualman]

I’ve found very few people on this site who admonish the pope to do anything, but will certainly admit that you can find cranks in ANY group you look at. We’re still fallen, if in the process of sanctification, and that surely makes its mark. But so does the sanctification…

 

[Newbie2]

Quite off topic, but I realized that there is quite a difference in the Title of:

Re: Love, Sex and wanting to get married

and

Re: Love Sex and wanting to get married.

What a difference a comma makes.

 

[bextah]

Hi,

My questions are of a similar nature, and they seem to fit into this title…

I was born and raised Catholic, but after high school fell away in a very hard way from the Church. I have only recently started to find my way back, which has been difficult as I have had to basically ‘rewire’ my thinking on a lot of things, I am still working on it.

Anyway, I have 2 small children and a non-Catholic partner now.

We are not married, only through financial reasons, we want to marry but can’t afford the licence.
We live as we are married with our children, and consider ourselves spouses, we have committed to each other but at the end of the day, we are still not married.

I can’t really confess this, as I continue to live this way, and while my partner understands my search for the Truth, he does not believe, and cannot accept us not being intimate since we already have a family. His family is not Catholic, but he is willing for me to baptise our children and bring them up in the faith.

I feel confused and a bit lost as to what I do from here, just looking for some advice or thoughts…

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,

My questions are of a similar nature, and they seem to fit into this title…

I was born and raised Catholic, but after high school fell away in a very hard way from the Church. I have only recently started to find my way back, which has been difficult as I have had to basically ‘rewire’ my thinking on a lot of things, I am still working on it.

Anyway, I have 2 small children and a non-Catholic partner now.

We are not married, only through financial reasons, we want to marry but can’t afford the licence.
We live as we are married with our children, and consider ourselves spouses, we have committed to each other but at the end of the day, we are still not married.

I can’t really confess this, as I continue to live this way, and while my partner understands my search for the Truth, he does not believe, and cannot accept us not being intimate since we already have a family. His family is not Catholic, but he is willing for me to baptise our children and bring them up in the faith.

I feel confused and a bit lost as to what I do from here, just looking for some advice or thoughts…

Take it step by step. Work with a good priest.

One thing you can do (with their father’s permission) is ask to have the children baptized, and start to train them in the Catholic faith, even though you and he are not yet able to partake of the Sacraments.

There is no reason to deny the children a good Catholic formation right away, while you and your partner are working out the details with a good priest on how to bring your situation to a good resolution (ideally, his conversion, and a valid marriage ceremony for the two of you).

 

[Antrim]

Imcrae
Your first priority should be to get married so that while you are raising the children in the Faith you are setting a good example for them.

As they grow older and learn right from wrong they are going to know that something is not right.

Remember that the only thing matters is that we go to Heaven when we die.

Nothing else in this world matters.

Antrim