Love the Morning Star

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H Bar, Not sure I understand where you’re going with the question.
 
tteddy619 said:
H Bar, Not sure I understand where you’re going with the question.
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Yeah, I don’t follow either.

Rev 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
 
Well, I am pretty sure that they is not referring to the weapon, so we can count that out. Yes, Jesus has been called the morning star, but I would doubt they are referring to this either as we all know what that answer would be. Thus, I think they are referring to Satan being called the morning and star and whether we should love him. It’s the age old, “love everyone, so should we love the devil question.” At least, I think that is the question.
 
Boulder257 said:
Well, I am pretty sure that they is not referring to the weapon, so we can count that out. Yes, Jesus has been called the morning star, but I would doubt they are referring to this either as we all know what that answer would be. Thus, I think they are referring to Satan being called the morning and star and whether we should love him. It’s the age old, “love everyone, so should we love the devil question.” At least, I think that is the question.
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Even if it’s Satan we should love him because he is one of God’s creatures but hate what he stands for…
 
I understood what he was referring just not the context of the question but I suppose that’s what he’s getting at. Many churches have a rooster on the top of the cross on the tower. This signifies that the light of the morning conquers over the darkness of sin. In darkness we become confused and place ourselves under the thumb of the devil. He operates in darkness and runs away from the morning light. This is the point of placing the rooster on a church. We are welcomed by the crow of the rooster to the morning light and hell fleas from the morning light. The morning star is not Lucifer. It is the grace of Christ. His light shines upon sin so that it may be absolved.

The use of the term is used in Rev in different ways. Satan as the morning star refers to the loss of faith and it is used as a marker for his placement. Its like saying God all merciful and God all Just. They contradict but only when juxtaposed. Satan will be the “morning star” as in he will be a false light of the people and many will worship him as such.
Im oversimplifying it but Im sure you get the point. The Blessed Mother warned us that even the most elect will lose their faith from the utter confusion that will occur in the church.
 
:angel1:Do you see, how the bright morning star our Lord will come soon; how very soon, and at least sooner than yesterday?
 
tonyrey said:
Even if it’s Satan we should love him because he is one of God’s creatures but hate what he stands for…
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we are supposed to be indifferent towards satan, neither loving nor hating him
 
I can’t see why anybody or any organisation has the right to tell you what emotion you should feel towards a being or phenomena. Although I concede that if you have succumbed to the arbitrary dogma of a religious organisation, then you have probably also metaphorically signed away your right to decide for yourself on such matters.

However, the question is moot, as emotions are not subject to choice. You can’t choose who or what to love, hate, envy etc. You might well decide to let your church do your thinking for you, but there are some directives that would be impossible to follow. The notion that a religion can force you to feel a certain way is just one of its many fallacies.

You might as well ask whether we should all be blood group A, for the difference it makes.
 
an attack on religion comes from a suppression of conscience…unless you would like to discuss what you feel so guilty about, then it is unwise to continue your attacks on religion, as your psychological reasons for doing so are textbook
 
frankpetrucci83 said:
an attack on religion comes from a suppression of conscience…unless you would like to discuss what you feel so guilty about, then it is unwise to continue your attacks on religion, as your psychological reasons for doing so are textbook
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As is your ad hominem pretence at knowing my mind.

Ignore my “style,” the question is valid: what is the point if knowing whether we “should” feel some emotion? Do you contend that we at liberty to control our emotions as instructed?

If you don’t want to address my actual point, then that’s your choice.
 
it is not an ad hominem, it is an analysis of your motive, and if I am indeed correct about the source of your motive, then no logical argument or presentation of evidence will change your mind…if subconscious suppression of guilt is at the root of the problem, then that is what must be addressed first, in order that any bias you might have may be removed, once that is done, things can be looked at objectively
 
frankpetrucci83 said:
it is not an ad hominem, it is an analysis of your motive, and if I am indeed correct about the source of your motive, then no logical argument or presentation of evidence will change your mind…if subconscious suppression of guilt is at the root of the problem, then that is what must be addressed first, in order that any bias you might have may be removed, once that is done, things can be looked at objectively
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You need to read up on ad hominem. You made a judgement of my state of mind, without any evidence whatsoever, and further, baselessly judged that my comment was motivated by this state of mind. You incorrectly stated that I have a suppressed conscience (if it’s suppressed, maybe I wouldn’t know it… but you wouldn’t either, and certainly not from a forum post), and that I feel guilty about something (I don’t). You then smugly suggested that these invented “psychological reasons” are somehow “textbook.” So. You didn’t address my comment at all, you merely judged me as a person. The very definition of ad hominem.

The only thing that could be considered “textbook” is the tired old theist meme that the atheist is somehow psychologically disturbed in deriding the superstitious nonsense of religion.

However, my **actual point **was quite clear to anybody who chose to read it: What is the purpose of considering whether we should feel a particular emotion towards a particular thing (regardless of who or what is judging “should”), when we have no choice in whether to feel such emotions?

So do you have response to the comment I was making, or are you determined to continue bashing a straw man instead?
 
Morning Star is in the Litany. Prayer to the Morning Star is believed that one wakes up in time for morning Mass.
 
wanstronian said:
Ignore my “style,” the question is valid: what is the point if knowing whether we “should” feel some emotion? Do you contend that we at liberty to control our emotions as instructed?
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We can’t control our emotions as instructed, but we can educate and develop our character towards certain goals, and that has an impact on how we feel about things.

Suppose the question was “Should we love blacks?”, what would be the answer? Of course we should, all humans have the same value regardless of race or skin color, etc.

But then someone comes and says “Well, I hate blacks, that’s how I feel. And since I can’t control my feelings, what’s the use in telling me how I should or shouldn’t feel?” - How should we respond to this? Perhaps by talking to the person to see from where this racial hatred comes from, and then refuting the reasons he has for it. Or maybe it’s someone who has lived in an exclusively white or asian country and only has stereotypical and prejudiced notions about blacks, and then he would need more personal experience to change his unfortunate - and yes, evil - way of feeling.

Whatever the case, it is in fact true that we can’t choose emotions on whim; but we can mold our character in different ways (not in a completely free and boundless manner; but there is a certain degree of freedom within fixed limits), and therefore it makes perfect sense to ask whether we should love something.

That said, should we love the morning star? Depends on what you mean. The actual morning star, the planet Venus, sure, why not? I bet an astronomer is going to love it more than I do, but both of us will have a sane and moderate fondness for all of creation. It is also used as a symbol to represent Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary and sometimes Satan. I guess the answer is pretty obvious with regards to them, right?
 
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