Love "triangle"

[Zaista]

I’ll get to the point as quickly as possible. A friend of mine has a problem but I’m not sure of how to help her. My friend has been with her boyfriend since she was 15 and she’s now 20. She met a guy about a year ago and now she says she has recently fallen for him really hard. She secretly admitted to me that she thought he was the best guy she had ever come across. Obviously this is a problem…

Background on the relationship
Her relationship with her boyfriend isn’t perfect but they do seem to genuinely love each other. Added to that, 5 years is a “long” time to be with someone in a non-marital relationship. The guy was pretty much her first everything; first and only boyfriend, first sexual partner, etc. They’ve had their ups and downs but manage to patch things over. The relationship isn’t abusive emotionally or mentally. The boyfriend’s jealousy is can be the cause of some tension between them but generally they are happy with each other.

Background on the boyfriend
He treats her with respect and isn’t abusive. His jealousy can be a bit annoying at time but maybe that’s understandable; the woman is very, very attractive while he’s a 5 or 6 out of ten, at best. No matter how much she assures him that looks don’t matter to her he is still a bit insecure.

The new guy
She says she honestly think he is the best guy she has ever met. The guy is practicing Catholic, is a virgin, he’s waiting until marriage, practices chastity etc. She says he treats her like a princess and she considers him her best friend. She said he even gave her advice to stay with her boyfriend at a point when she considered breaking up with him, even though the new fellow developed romantic feelings for her and would probably get his change to be with her after the break up. He seems to want to put her happiness first. From what I heard he seems to be a darn good fellow.(assuming what she says is true)

the girl
She is extremely attractive and has a personality to match. She was raised in a non practicing Orthodox home but never really believed anything more than the basic (Jesus is lord, homosexuality is wrong, the bible is holy, etc) She recently decided to go a Protestant camp in August of 2012 and that event seemed to have changed her life. She vowed to stop having sex until she is married. She vowed to stop masturbation. She goes to church 3 times a week and is much closer to God now.

A new source of tension in their relationship is the fact that she had a conversion and now wants to fully practice chastity. Before her attendance at the proddy camp they regularly engaged in premarital sex. Apparently this might be too much of a change for him. In fact she was afraid of telling him about her choice to wait because she thought he would have broken up with her. He didn’t break up with her but he now thinks she is in some kind of cult and doesn’t understand why she wants to wait. He is no a non practicing Orthodox Christian. So non practicing that he needed biblical proof that sex before marriage was wrong!

Anyway she said that she is now open about her feelings towards her friend but made it abundantly clear that she will not leave her boyfriend from him, despite the fact that she has admitted to me,herself and him(the new guy) that she thinks he is a much better man for her. She thinks it would be unfair for her to leave her boyfriend of 5 years for what seems like greener grass. I think she understands commitment and I agree with her decision. Added to that she does genuinely love her boyfriend and wants to be with him.

She speaks with the new guy daily and for hours (they’ve known each other for more than a year, if I am correct). They keep their distance physically to avoid incidence of infidelity and immorality but seem very emotionally close; or emotionally attached. They don’t flirt with each other but often discuss the difficulty of not being able to be with someone they care about deeply. “I love you but we can’t be together.” I told her it is best they suppress their feelings for each other or even try to slowly kill it. I also told her that it is best that they no be open about their feelings for each other but I am not sure of my advice.

She seems genuinely torn between these two guys. I’ve seen her cry several times over the issue. She thinks she will be unfair to one by choosing the other and sees herself as the cause of the problem. Also, her boyfriend has no idea about her feelings for the new guy. He thinks they are just friends.

Is she emotionally cheating on her boyfriend?

Is she breaking any moral code?

Should she try to kill her feelings for this new guy?

Should they both hide their feelings and not be open about their feelings towards each other? (this was my advice)

WHAT SHOULD SHE DO?

Sorry for the wall of text and sorry for the typos!

 

[Kelfa28]

Here is the basic catch-all to every question you proposed.

She is NOT married.

Period.

At the end of the day…she has no ties to either of these guys. She could decide that neither of them are right for her and that is perfectly fine.

One piece of advice to give her:

If you are NOT married…you can end a relationship at any time and NEVER feel obligated to continue an unhealthy relationship with anyone just because she has been with that person for a substantial amount of time.

Unfortunately, she will have a very difficult time breaking up with her boyfriend because she has already been sexually active with him. Sex is the glue that creates that unique bond between a husband and a wife. If you do that before you get married you create that bond anyway…and even if you know that person is not right for you…you stick with him because that bond is there.

She needs to realize two things:

1. She has zero ties to anyone at this time because she is NOT married.
2. She needs to realize that she is holding on to the bond between her and her boyfriend
   and not discerning if he is actually the right person for her.

BTW…the answer to all of your questions is no.

What should she do?

Discern marriage properly and stop caring about whose feelings she may or may not hurt.

This is only about her because she is NOT married.

 

[lerapt78]

Sounds like emotional cheating to me.

 

[JerryZ]

Here is the basic catch-all to every question you proposed.

She is NOT married.

Period.

At the end of the day…she has no ties to either of these guys. She could decide that neither of them are right for her and that is perfectly fine.

One piece of advice to give her:

If you are NOT married…you can end a relationship at any time and NEVER feel obligated to continue an unhealthy relationship with anyone just because she has been with that person for a substantial amount of time.

Unfortunately, she will have a very difficult time breaking up with her boyfriend because she has already been sexually active with him. Sex is the glue that creates that unique bond between a husband and a wife. If you do that before you get married you create that bond anyway…and even if you know that person is not right for you…you stick with him because that bond is there.

She needs to realize two things:

1. She has zero ties to anyone at this time because she is NOT married.
2. She needs to realize that she is holding on to the bond between her and her boyfriend
   and not discerning if he is actually the right person for her.

BTW…the answer to all of your questions is no.

What should she do?

Discern marriage properly and stop caring about whose feelings she may or may not hurt.

This is only about her because she is NOT married.

Shocking!

 

[pnewton]

I like Kefkas advice. Since this is a hard issue, she is not ready for marriage. How about just quit dating, as far as romance, and just date for fun and for discernment, with both, or with anyone else.

I do think staying with her boyfriend of five years will prove very difficult, is she is to maintain purity. It is hard to roll back sexual behavior while dating the same person.

 

[datritle]

this is better than a soap opera! team jacob, or team that other guy!? I’m on team “the catholic guy”.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Is she emotionally cheating on her boyfriend?

Is she breaking any moral code?

Should she try to kill her feelings for this new guy?

Should they both hide their feelings and not be open about their feelings towards each other? (this was my advice)

WHAT SHOULD SHE DO?

Sorry for the wall of text and sorry for the typos!

Wow.

Maybe you could lend her access to your computer so she can ask her own questions of strangers. IMO, the whole thing sounds like bad 10th grade drama. Bow out. She needs to grow up and figure out her own life. BTW, your advice is … just not at all good. Secrecy? Hiding? Open, honest communication is always best.

 

[april32010]

Before her attendance at the proddy camp

calling Protestants proddy isn’t cool.

 

[1ke]

“Because we have been dating 5 years” is a really immature and IMHO bad reason to stay with someone.

Dating is for discerning marriage. They were both too young to be doing the things they were doing, and that has created a faux bond between them that she needs to get some distance from in order to see that throwing herself on her sword is a really bad way to choose a lifelong marriage partner.

I think she needs to spend some time dating no one and growing up.

 

[Zaista]

calling Protestants proddy isn’t cool.

I’m not known for being “politically correct” and I don’t know any protestant who is offended by that word. You’re making something out of nothing. Trying to play God, blasphemer?

“Because we have been dating 5 years” is a really immature and IMHO bad reason to stay with someone.

Dating is for discerning marriage. They were both too young to be doing the things they were doing, and that has created a faux bond between them that she needs to get some distance from in order to see that throwing herself on her sword is a really bad way to choose a lifelong marriage partner.

I think she needs to spend some time dating no one and growing up.

I think it’s a bit unfair to call her immature. When you’re willing to give your life for someone that’s not exactly a “faux bond”. There is much I haven’t explained. Yes, I agree that sexual activity does create a bond but it was obvious to me that it was more than just a physical thing. Regardless of what, she is in a difficult position and I’d appreciate some actually advice that could help instead of a cynical red herring-like response. Seems like she isn’t the only one who needs to grow up, but I’m not pointing fingers

Here is the basic catch-all to every question you proposed.

She is NOT married.

Period.

At the end of the day…she has no ties to either of these guys. She could decide that neither of them are right for her and that is perfectly fine.

One piece of advice to give her:

If you are NOT married…you can end a relationship at any time and NEVER feel obligated to continue an unhealthy relationship with anyone just because she has been with that person for a substantial amount of time.

Unfortunately, she will have a very difficult time breaking up with her boyfriend because she has already been sexually active with him. Sex is the glue that creates that unique bond between a husband and a wife. If you do that before you get married you create that bond anyway…and even if you know that person is not right for you…you stick with him because that bond is there.

She needs to realize two things:

1. She has zero ties to anyone at this time because she is NOT married.
2. She needs to realize that she is holding on to the bond between her and her boyfriend
   and not discerning if he is actually the right person for her.

BTW…the answer to all of your questions is no.

What should she do?

Discern marriage properly and stop caring about whose feelings she may or may not hurt.

This is only about her because she is NOT married.

Ahaaa… I’ll have to modify my advice to her but it doesn’t seem like I need to anymore. She said she broke up with him and said she’s going to take a long time to get back on her feet. She doesn’t seem interested in an kind of relationship now, which I told her is the best way to go.

 

[Kelfa28]

I think it’s a bit unfair to call her immature. When you’re willing to give your life for someone that’s not exactly a “faux bond”. There is much I haven’t explained. Yes, I agree that sexual activity does create a bond but it was obvious to me that it was more than just a physical thing. Regardless of what, she is in a difficult position and I’d appreciate some actually advice that could help instead of a cynical red herring-like response. Seems like she isn’t the only one who needs to grow up, but I’m not pointing fingers

Actually, many people on this forum really take to heart and respect 1ke’s advice. I’ve found it to be helpful and on point. It is quite clear the way you word your posts that you are younger and a bit immature yourself. Turning her post around and attacking her…when she hasn’t said anything but the truth based on what you’ve written is very uncharitable and very immature.

In fact, I really agree with her statement. Anyone having premarital sex is creating a “faux bond” with someone. You aren’t discerning marriage and putting the “cart before the horse” for lack of a better phrase.

Why would you be willing to give your life to someone you aren’t married to and aren’t even sure you want to marry? Being with someone for 5 years is not a reason to get married. That means absolutely nothing. The way you have worded your post about your friend says that she has issues with this relationship. She has found someone new and that is fine and there shouldn’t be any cause for concern unless she is married to the first person. She really doesn’t have any ties to any of these guys.

We don’t know you or the person you are posting about. From what is written, and only what is written, is sounds like she needs a lot of growing up to do. Which is perfectly fine and there is nothing wrong with that.

… I’ll have to modify my advice to her but it doesn’t seem like I need to anymore. She said she broke up with him and said she’s going to take a long time to get back on her feet. She doesn’t seem interested in an kind of relationship now, which I told her is the best way to go.

Why would you have to modify my advice?

In the real world, sometimes people’s feelings need to be hurt in order for us to learn from our mistakes. If we aren’t given the truth then we will never learn.

I’m curious. How would you modify my advice anyway?

 

[Kelfa28]

calling Protestants proddy isn’t cool.

I agree.

It’s uncharitable to use words like that towards our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[robotsarecool]

calling Protestants proddy isn’t cool.

As someone who was raised protestant, I agree that calling them “proddy” isn’t cool. It is disrespectful and uncharitable.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I’m not known for being “politically correct” and I don’t know any protestant who is offended by that word. You’re making something out of nothing. Trying to play God, blasphemer?

Being PC or or not isn’t the issue. Referring to Protestant anything as “proddy” is offensive. If you didn’t know it before, you know it now.

And when someone does you the favor of calling you out on offensive language, the grownup response is to acknowledge your wrongdoing and say you’re going to work on it. The immature response is to hide behind anti-PCness, tell the other person they have no right to be offended, lob accusation against them, and then round it off with a passive agressive emoticon.

Also, please remember that the internet is not anonymous. There’s enough information on your friend and these guys for somone familiar with the situation to make a reasonable guess as to their identities. With this in mind, does your friend know that you’ve told CAF of her vow to stop masturbating? That kind of info isn’t stuff many of us want our friends announing in cyberspace.

From where I’m standing I think both you and your friend need to re-think boundaries, personal space, and respect before trying to cultivate meaningful, committment-minded relationships with men.

Luna

 

[april32010]

I’m not known for being “politically correct” and I don’t know any protestant who is offended by that word. You’re making something out of nothing. Trying to play God, blasphemer?

(blaspheme |blasˈfēm; ˈblasˌfēm|
verb intrans. ]
speak irreverently about God or sacred things ) #1)if one doesn’t know the definition of a word ,they shouldn’t use it.#2) i didn’t insult you,how about the same consideration . #3) you should familiarize yourself with the rules of this forum.

 

[Zaista]

Actually, many people on this forum really take to heart and respect 1ke’s advice. I’ve found it to be helpful and on point. It is quite clear the way you word your posts that you are younger and a bit immature yourself. Turning her post around and attacking her…when she hasn’t said anything but the truth based on what you’ve written is very uncharitable and very immature.

In fact, I really agree with her statement. Anyone having premarital sex is creating a “faux bond” with someone. You aren’t discerning marriage and putting the “cart before the horse” for lack of a better phrase.

Why would you be willing to give your life to someone you aren’t married to and aren’t even sure you want to marry? Being with someone for 5 years is not a reason to get married. That means absolutely nothing. The way you have worded your post about your friend says that she has issues with this relationship. She has found someone new and that is fine and there shouldn’t be any cause for concern unless she is married to the first person. She really doesn’t have any ties to any of these guys.

We don’t know you or the person you are posting about. From what is written, and only what is written, is sounds like she needs a lot of growing up to do. Which is perfectly fine and there is nothing wrong with that.

Why would you have to modify my advice?

In the real world, sometimes people’s feelings need to be hurt in order for us to learn from our mistakes. If we aren’t given the truth then we will never learn.

I’m curious. How would you modify my advice anyway?

As someone who was raised protestant, I agree that calling them “proddy” isn’t cool. It is disrespectful and uncharitable.

It hardly matters to me how much “good” advice she has posted. I was never one to believe that a majority of opinion determines truth. I called it how I saw it. Her and your assertion that there is only the illusion of love simply because she had sex with him seems ludacris to me: “It is impossible for her to actually love him simply because she engaged in questionable behavior with him, no exceptions!” I know of a Danish couple who starting have sex early, basically broke every cardinal rule when it comes to what you shouldn’t do before marriage, don’t believe in God and aren’t even married but still together, and for decades. In fact, I dear say they are one of the most loving couple I’ve seen. This is in no way an attempt to legitimize cohabitation or their actions; my point is that just because things aren’t done by the book doesn’t mean people’s love and capacity to genuinely care for each other is null and void. They’ve been together longer than a lot of God-fearing Christian couples who’ve played by the rules. That’s one hell of a faux bond innit? What you both said is on par with silly statements like, “Atheists have no morals because they don’t believe in God.” That level of understanding isn’t very indicative of maturity to me. Let’s not even go that far; It’s not even indicative of the bare minimum, truth. When you’re giving someone advice you try to put yourself in their shoe instead of throwing out some half baked condescending response, yet I am the uncharitable one. **There was no matter way to say that she needs some more live experience under her belt than “You’re immature,you need to grow up”… Am I really the uncharitable one? **I suggest you both reevaluate your your style of advice giving. No matter how “truthful” you think you are, if your advice isn’t delivered properly then it’s never going to have a meaningful effect. Although, to be fear to you, your first response wasn’t nearly as bullish as hers.

“Why would you be willing to give your life for someone you aren’t married to and aren’t even sure you want to marry?” Really? Maybe’s it’s because she genuinely cares for him, sees him as a friend and actually does love him. Maybe?

Read what I said carefully please. She said she didn’t want to leave her boyfriend of 5 years for what seems like greener grass. I think that was very mature of her:

1. She had some level of understanding of commitment (what you call a faux bond.)
2. She’s didn’t want to give up on the relationship so easily (again, what you may also call a faux bond)
3. She knows that sometimes the grass isn’t always greener on the other side

I never stated that it was the only or primary reason for staying with him.

I never said anything about modifying your advice to her. I said I will modify my advice to her, which was to not be open about their feelings to each other.

Aren’t we all just understanding stuff today… You said I was immature. Please allow me to be the “bigger man”, step up and shoulder the blame. It may have been my fault for not explaining the situation better, okay?

sorry for the typos

 

[Kelfa28]

It hardly matters to me how much “good” advice she has posted. I was never one to believe that a majority of opinion determines truth. I called it how I saw it.

No, but all you have to do is some research on her posts and the clear and concise advice she consistently gives on this forum. It is not a “majority of opinion.” The proof is out there in these threads. She gives simple and correct advice. Her delivery is frank and to the point.

Her and your assertion that there is only the illusion of love simply because she had sex with him seems ludacris to me: “It is impossible for her to actually love him simply because she engaged in questionable behavior with him, no exceptions!”

I’m sorry, I don’t remember reading that quote anywhere on this thread. Where did that come from?

My assertion is that an illusion of love was created, through sex, that clouded her judgement of him. Once again, you have written that this relationship was rocky. Why stay with someone such a long period of time if there are issues within the relationship? There had to be a reason.
I admit, I wasn’t a faithful Christian and I made many mistakes in my early twenties. I would find excuse after excuse to stay with a man that I had slept with, longer then I should have, despite clear red flags going up all over the place.
Once I stopped all that and began to live a chaste life…I found myself discerning marriage and recognizing red flags and acting accordingly.
She meets someone else and doesn’t just consider this other person as a nice guy and then she actually starts questioning her relationship because she met a new person. If she was so in love beyond a physical attraction, then that would have never happened. But because she met someone new, I can say that the love she had for her boyfriend was dependent on the sex.

I know of a Danish couple who starting have sex early, basically broke every cardinal rule when it comes to what you shouldn’t do before marriage, don’t believe in God and aren’t even married but still together, and for decades. In fact, I dear say they are one of the most loving couple I’ve seen.

Same with my sister, same with my parents and same with my BIL and SIL from my husband’s side.
However, I’m willing to bet that there wasn’t some considerable efforts to be made on their parts (your danish friends). You see them from the outside looking in and not from the inside looking out. Despite my relatives being married for quite some time (my parents have been married for 30 years and 36 if you include their entire courtship) they had to fight for their marriages…sometimes desperately…and they all questioned their marriages and their love for one another. I have a feeling much of their anguish would have been solved if they hadn’t jumped into pre-marital sex and cohabitation so early in their relationships.

This is in no way an attempt to legitimize cohabitation or their actions; my point is that just because things aren’t done by the book doesn’t mean people’s love and capacity to genuinely care for each other is null and void. They’ve been together longer than a lot of God-fearing Christian couples who’ve played by the rules. That’s one hell of a faux bond innit?

No one said their love was automatically null and void…you are putting words in our mouths. What we are saying is that much of that love is based upon a bond formed with pre-marital sex.

One fact that I know. Length of a relationship means nothing if there is no substance. In fact most God-fearing Christian couples that do wait for marriage marry in less time because they have done all the discerning they needed to do in a shorter period of time. They aren’t “comfortable” where they are because they aren’t having pre-marital sex and pretending they are married. They develop their relationship with each other and can usually determine quickly if this person is right for them or not. Why would a boy propose to his girlfriend if he is already sleeping with her? There is no relationship development and no moving on to another level. This is why so many relationships that involve pre-marital sex last so long before marriage actually happens. Length does not determine the substance of a relationship. Plenty of people are in unhappy marriages for decades and decades but they aren’t “in love” with each other.
Would you consider these relationships truly loving because they have been together for 30 years?

What you both said is on par with silly statements like, “Atheists have no morals because they don’t believe in God.” That level of understanding isn’t very indicative of maturity to me. Let’s not even go that far; It’s not even indicative of the bare minimum, truth. When you’re giving someone advice you try to put yourself in their shoe instead of throwing out some half baked condescending response, yet I am the uncharitable one.

I have no idea where you are getting these ideas. What I have said is based on what you have written which is you have a girl friend who is questioning her relationship with a boyfriend she has been with for 5 years and has been sexually active with. She met someone new and is starting to realize her relationship with her boyfriend isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be. Your questions are not fitting for a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship but a marriage. They are not married. She is free to break up with her boyfriend and be with someone new. Being with someone for 5 years means nothing unless you are married. It is not a reason to stay with someone…especially if it’s not entirely a healthy relationship.

My responses were not condescending but fact-filled and to the point. You are uncharitable for calling a protestant: “proddy” and that is it.

 

[Kelfa28]

continued…

**There was no matter way to say that she needs some more live experience under her belt than “You’re immature,you need to grow up”… Am I really the uncharitable one? **I suggest you both reevaluate your your style of advice giving. No matter how “truthful” you think you are, if your advice isn’t delivered properly then it’s never going to have a meaningful effect. Although, to be fear to you, your first response wasn’t nearly as bullish as hers.

Saying someone is immature and needs some life experience is hardly using the words “grow up.” Once again, I looked through these posts and did not see this phrase used. You are putting words in our mouths. Once again, you are uncharitable towards protestants with your language.

She is 19 and began this relationship at the age of 14. She is young and needs to experience being single and truly discerning her vocation. I hardly see that as being a negative thing.

You to reevaluate your attitude when posting. You are being completely accusatory and uncharitable. If my response wan’t as “bullish” then why are you writing like I am?

Maybe’s it’s because she genuinely cares for him, sees him as a friend and actually does love him. Maybe?

I’m truly curious! Why would she do this? She is questioning her relationship just by meeting a nicer guy. Why in the world would she give her life to her boyfriend if it was so easy for her to question her relationship in the first place.

No woman is called to do this anyway…even within the context of marriage. A man is called to be a protector and a provider. That is how God calls a marriage to be. If one is not married then why would one pretend to be married by taking on such a harsh reality? What would the point of marriage be?
I love my friends very much and I care for them but it is not the same kind of self-sacrificing love I have for my husband and my daughter. I would never dream of applying this kind of self-sacrificing love for someone else.
I had to learn self-sacrificing love while discerning my marriage with my husband and be willing to apply it when we were married.
I’ve never and will ever fleetingly feel that kind of love for anyone just because I love them and care about them.

Read what I said carefully please. She said she didn’t want to leave her boyfriend of 5 years for what seems like greener grass. I think that was very mature of her:

1. She had some level of understanding of commitment (what you call a faux bond.)
2. She’s didn’t want to give up on the relationship so easily (again, what you may also call a faux bond)
3. She knows that sometimes the grass isn’t always greener on the other side

Why is that mature of her if her relationship isn’t healthy to begin with? She is not married and has no true commitment to this guy. I think it’s immature for not allowing herself to take a deep and truthful look at her relationship and question whether she really should continue with it or not. You should have encouraged this.

Being with someone for five years doesn’t make the relationship special or different. It just shows you can stick with something for a certain length of time.

I call it a faux bond based on the fact that she had pre-marital sex with him. I don’t care about the commitment level or the length. I think you are equating her relationship to a marriage or something similar to a marriage because she has been with him for 5 years.

This is not a marriage and I’m not sure you truly understand the difference of marriage and a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship that has been together for a substantial length of time. Otherwise you wouldn’t be so incredulous of our responses and trying to prove that she has a commitment to this guy because they’ve been with each other for five years.

Marriage is so different. It’s a vow and it’s a completely different type of love that develops and grows through hard work and sacrifice. We don’t get a second chance. We have to keep working on it…for better or for worse. She doesn’t have to work on anything if she doesn’t want to. She doesn’t have self-sacrificing love for her boyfriend and he doesn’t have it for her. Otherwise they would have already married.

Aren’t we all just understanding stuff today… You said I was immature.

The way you word your posts say you are a bit immature. This previous post of yours proves my point even further.