Love, Unity, Binity and Trinity

[Vico]

We have not so complex problems with God. God is one and unique. God loves His creatures all as His art.

If God is one then why to insist at saying that God is three in one!!! I mentioned very times that there is no any valid and explicit statements in Gospels about that subject. Jesus never claimed such thing directly. But there are some strained interpretations to prove that Jesus was son of God.

Math does not accept that : 1+1+1=1??? (But if some say 1x1x1=1 then I will say 1x1x1x1x1x1x…1=1 So do we have countless gods?)

If you assume God as three persons in one personality then non theory can explain that. And we cannot compose three eternal gods in one personality. I can tell many conflicts about that. So people always will have question and propblems which are not possible to solve.

It does confuse some people that the divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire. A Doctor of the Catholic Church, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote about how that can be:
Q. 39 (Article 1. Whether in God the essence is the same as the person?):
Objection 2: “…person is distinct, whereas essence is not. Therefore person and essence are not the same.”
Reply to Objection 2: “As essence and person in God differ in our way of thinking, it follows that something can be denied of the one and affirmed of the other; and therefore, when we suppose the one, we need not suppose the other.”

Q. 39 (Article 2. Whether it must be said that the three persons are of one essence?)

"…in God the essence is taken as the** form** of the three persons, according to our mode of signification. … as in God the persons are multiplied, and the essence is not multiplied we speak of one essence **of **the three persons, and three persons of the one essence, provided that these genitives be understood as designating the form."
newadvent.org/summa/1039.htm#article2

​

 

[ynotzap]

We have not so complex problems with God. God is one and unique. God loves His creatures all as His art.

If God is one then why to insist at saying that God is three in one!!! I mentioned very times that there is no any valid and explicit statements in Gospels about that subject. Jesus never claimed such thing directly. But there are some strained interpretations to prove that Jesus was son of God.

Math does not accept that : 1+1+1=1??? (But if some say 1x1x1=1 then I will say 1x1x1x1x1x1x…1=1 So do we have countless gods?)

If you assume God as three persons in one personality then non theory can explain that. And we cannot compose three eternal gods in one personality. I can tell many conflicts about that. So people always will have question and propblems which are not possible to solve.

Muslims have heaped ridicule upon our assertion that Christ is the Son of God, as though God is thereby said to have a wife, they judge by physical standards, pertaining to flesh and blood. The process of begetting is no the same in all things but occurs in each thing according to its own proper characteristics Through animals and humans it occurs through male and female, in plants through germination. God is not of a carnal nature such that He needs intercourse with a woman to beget a son, but is spiritual or intellectual nature, He is above all intellects. Hence generation in Him is to be understood in the manner appropriate to an intellectual nature.

God is not carnal in nature but Pure Spirit and Pure Act. We have to speak by analogy or likeness to what we find in our own nature When our intellect actually understands, it forms something, as it were, an offspring, a mental concept. This concept when expressed outwardly (the voice communicating meaning) we call the outer word. The inner concept is called the “the mental word”. In humans the concept is not the essence of our minds, our understanding is not the very being of our intellects, for if it were we would never be without understanding in actual fact. The inner mental word can be called concept or offspring by analogy, especially when it understands itself.

To be a son, it is necessary that the one begotten have both the nature, and likeness of him from whom he proceeds. God is His Understanding, and it follows that the word that is conceived in His intellect, has the character of the one from whom it proceeds. The Divine Word is not part of God, for God is simple, but something subsisting in the divine nature. According to human speech that which proceeds from another with the same nature and likeness is said to be a son. In so far as the divine can be described in human terms we call the Word of the Divine Intellect, the Son of God.

God who is the Word, we call Father, and the “procession of the word” we term the generation of the Son. The Word of God (the Son) is coeternal with God Himself. God understands all things simultaneously and by a single act. His understanding is one with His being. I t follows that in God there is only one Word. The one Word matches fully the power of God, because God through His Essence understands Himself, and all else
Therefore as great as is His essence, so great is the Word which by His essence He conceived, understanding Himself, it is therefore perfect and simple and equal to
God.
The Word we call the Son of God, the same nature as the Father, we call Him the Father’s coeternal, and only begotten and perfect Son.

For unbelievers to dispute articles of Faith, we should not try to prove faith with reason, for such a procedure would deprive the faith of it’s sublime quality, the truth which transcends the human mind, for this is due to Divine Revelation. We defend our faith, and to show it is reasonable, and not false.

 

[hasantas]

St John begins his gospel with “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” This Word, of course, is the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Saviour " who was made flesh and dwelt among us." A word proceeds from the mind or intellect so the procession of the Son of God is from the Father’s intellect. We can’t love what we do not know so the second person of the Trinity is the Son who is the Image of the Father. Simultaneously, the procession of the Holy Spirit is the Love the Father and Son have for each other. It can be said that the Father loves the Son by the Holy Spirit and the Son loves the Father by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is spirated by both the Father and the Son together.

“In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Jesus is “word of God” and that is right. Let’s interpret that term according to Islam(Quran):

So the angels called him while he was standing in prayer in the chamber, “Indeed, Allah gives you good tidings of John, confirming a word from Allah and [who will be] honorable, abstaining [from women], and a prophet from among the righteous.” (al-Imran:39)

[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].(Al-Imran:45)

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa:171)

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, “Be,” and he was. (Al-Imran:59)

29-So she pointed to him. They said, “How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?” 30-[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.(Maryam:29-30)

Jesus is “Kalimatullah=word of God”. Islamic scholars interpret and reason why Jesus is called Kalimatullah in some way:

• A word from God also mean a message(news) and prophethood from God. “word” also mean “news” in English too.

-“Word” also mean glad tidings and good news. Jesus came with good news and Jesus renew revelation and through Jesus billions of people got faith and came towards God and had a religious life…

-“word” mean meaning and facts. Through Jesus god informed very facts.

• And also Jesus came to world without a father. God to mention that to create a human without a father is so easy for God. So God said “Be,” and He was. That mean the order of “Be” is a word for God and God can do everthing with that word.
• God can name Jesus just as how God like.

Yes in the beginning was the word. God said word “Be”. The word was with God. God had not ordered yet “be”. And the word was God. “Be” is an order and a word from God and words(speech) is one of eternal attributes of God.

We can apply that word to everything because everything is creature of God. And if we refer that to Jesus then that gain a special meanning.

 

[Karen107]

We have not so complex problems with God. God is one and unique. God loves His creatures all as His art.

If God is one then why to insist at saying that God is three in one!!! I mentioned very times that there is no any valid and explicit statements in Gospels about that subject. Jesus never claimed such thing directly. But there are some strained interpretations to prove that Jesus was son of God.

Math does not accept that : 1+1+1=1??? (But if some say 1x1x1=1 then I will say 1x1x1x1x1x1x…1=1 So do we have countless gods?)

If you assume God as three persons in one personality then non theory can explain that. And we cannot compose three eternal gods in one personality. I can tell many conflicts about that. So people always will have question and propblems which are not possible to solve.

Yes Jesus did say God is one… John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

And John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

God is one… St. Paul teaches about the One Universal God to the Corinthians who would make many gods depending on what they saw God to be so used this as a clever teaching tool to teach about our one universal God …

1 Corinthians 1:22 Then Paul stood in front of the Areopagus and said, “Athenians, I see how extremely religious you are in every way. 23 For as I went through the city and looked carefully at the objects of your worship, I found among them an altar with the inscription, **‘To an unknown god.’ **What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. 26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,

‘For we too are his offspring.’
29 Since we are God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of mortals. 30 While God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will have the world judged in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

See St. Paul describes One God who made everything… Not three Gods… and called us Gods offspring… See I mentioned before we are sons and daughters of God… it is a family relationship.

They are three persons in God… Jesus calls His Father, Our Father, who is also our Father. Jesus is another ‘person’ named Jesus…The Son is the begotten Son of the Father who was with the Father forever because Jesus is of the same "stuff or spirit’ as God.

And the third person of God is the "Holy Spirit’ which has it’s own personality because it knows all and it encapsulates us with the Father and the Son in the Spirit of God… Three distinct persons, One God. The scriptures do call each by name showing us that they are distinct from each other yet one because God is spirit and supernatural… You can’t define God by measuring God in meters, because Spirit can’t be measured like that. It’s in us and around us… Everywhere because God is omnipresent.

 

[Richca]

“In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Jesus is “word of God” and that is right. Let’s interpret that term according to Islam(Quran):

So the angels called him while he was standing in prayer in the chamber, “Indeed, Allah gives you good tidings of John, confirming a word from Allah and [who will be] honorable, abstaining [from women], and a prophet from among the righteous.” (al-Imran:39)

[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].(Al-Imran:45)

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa:171)

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, “Be,” and he was. (Al-Imran:59)

29-So she pointed to him. They said, “How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?” 30-[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.(Maryam:29-30)

Jesus is “Kalimatullah=word of God”. Islamic scholars interpret and reason why Jesus is called Kalimatullah in some way:

• A word from God also mean a message(news) and prophethood from God. “word” also mean “news” in English too.

-“Word” also mean glad tidings and good news. Jesus came with good news and Jesus renew revelation and through Jesus billions of people got faith and came towards God and had a religious life…

-“word” mean meaning and facts. Through Jesus god informed very facts.

• And also Jesus came to world without a father. God to mention that to create a human without a father is so easy for God. So God said “Be,” and He was. That mean the order of “Be” is a word for God and God can do everthing with that word.
• God can name Jesus just as how God like.

Yes in the beginning was the word. God said word “Be”. The word was with God. God had not ordered yet “be”. And the word was God. “Be” is an order and a word from God and words(speech) is one of eternal attributes of God.

We can apply that word to everything because everything is creature of God. And if we refer that to Jesus then that gain a special meanning.

The Word is not a creature of God. St John is quite clear here “and the Word was God.”

 

[thinkandmull]

If God wanted to, He could have been a unity, a bi-unity, a trinity or a quad-unity for that matter (eg. Father, Mother, Son, Holy Spirit - for the sake of conjecture).

But He chose the Trinity. And then He let us know about it via Revelation and Jesus Christ.

End of story.

If you accept the common understanding of God through philosophy, this can’t be so. The relations are necessary

 

[thinkandmull]

St John begins his gospel with “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” This Word, of course, is the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Saviour " who was made flesh and dwelt among us." A word proceeds from the mind or intellect so the procession of the Son of God is from the Father’s intellect. We can’t love what we do not know so the second person of the Trinity is the Son who is the Image of the Father. Simultaneously, the procession of the Holy Spirit is the Love the Father and Son have for each other. It can be said that the Father loves the Son by the Holy Spirit and the Son loves the Father by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is spirated by both the Father and the Son together.

“It can be said that the Father loves the Son by the Holy Spirit and the Son loves the Father by the Holy Spirit.” Does not the Father love the Son as He begets Him?

 

[hasantas]

The Word is not a creature of God. St John is quite clear here “and the Word was God.”

Do we have exact original text of John in original language? If we had had we would perhaps understand what exactly St John meant. There might be many ambiguities which occured through translations. The current Gospels we have are result of some translations from original.

 

[hasantas]

=Karen107;12838494]Yes Jesus did say God is one… John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

And John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

God is one… St. Paul teaches about the One Universal God to the Corinthians who would make many gods depending on what they saw God to be so used this as a clever teaching tool to teach about our one universal God …

1 Corinthians 1:22 Then Paul stood in front of the Areopagus and said, “Athenians, I see how extremely religious you are in every way. 23 For as I went through the city and looked carefully at the objects of your worship, I found among them an altar with the inscription, **‘To an unknown god.’ **What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. 26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,

‘For we too are his offspring.’
29 Since we are God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of mortals. 30 While God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will have the world judged in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

See St. Paul describes One God who made everything… Not three Gods… and called us Gods offspring… See I mentioned before we are sons and daughters of God… it is a family relationship.

Until here it is okay.

They are three persons in God… Jesus calls His Father, Our Father, who is also our Father. Jesus is another ‘person’ named Jesus…The Son is the begotten Son of the Father who was with the Father forever because Jesus is of the same "stuff or spirit’ as God.

And the third person of God is the "Holy Spirit’ which has it’s own personality because it knows all and it encapsulates us with the Father and the Son in the Spirit of God… Three distinct persons, One God. The scriptures do call each by name showing us that they are distinct from each other yet one because God is spirit and supernatural… You can’t define God by measuring God in meters, because Spirit can’t be measured like that. It’s in us and around us… Everywhere because God is omnipresent.

Jesus said God is one but did not say we are three but in one!

If you assume three eternal persons then you cannot connect and assemble that three persons in one personality. If there are three persons then there are three persons. Generally it is so difficult for two persons to agree in a simple issue. Now three eternal persons would always agree in countless issues!!! The problem is not about being spiritual or material. But every person has willpower. There is no degree in deity. So Son must not be inferior than Father. But Jesus always say “I will ask from Father!”

So you may say that Jesus do that with His will and with “love”. Does Father has not any love to sacrifice Himself for Son?

Jesus was a man(prophet) and He performed some miracles as some other prophets did. So is there anything superior else?

If Jesus was % 100 human then Jesus had a human soul and human body. A human soul cannot compose and unity with divine entity. What happened to human side of Jesus. Will we respect that human(% 100 human side of Jesus) as divine in Heaven or as a normal human? Or will that human stay at right of God(three) as a half-god? So do we have three and a half God?

 

[Vico]

…

There is only one divine will in the Trinity. Indwelling is called perichoresis, which is of two kinds (Modern Catholic Dictionary):**PERICHORESIS. **

• The penetration and indwelling of the three divine persons reciprocally in one another. In the Greek conception of the Trinity there is an emphasis on the mutual penetration of the three persons, thus bringing out the unity of the divine essence. In the Latin idea called circumincession the stress is more on the internal processions of the three divine persons. In both traditions, however, the fundamental basis of the Trinitarian perichoresis is the one essence of the three persons in God.
• The term is also applied to the close union of the two natures in Christ. Although the power that unites the two natures proceeds exclusively from Christ’s divinity, the result is a most intimate coalescence. The Godhead, which itself is impenetrable, penetrates the humanity, which is thereby deified without ceasing to be perfectly human.

 

[thinkandmull]

What does the first sentence of Q 27 Art 2 ans 3 mean. I’m puzzled. Check it out, its interesting

 

[Vico]

What does the first sentence of Q 27 Art 2 ans 3 mean. I’m puzzled. Check it out, its interesting

He is countering the statement that: “anything that is generated derives existence from its generator”, with “Not everything derived from another has existence in another subject”.

It is because the divine persons are inseparable, person is essential.

 

[hasantas]

Muslims have heaped ridicule upon our assertion that Christ is the Son of God, as though God is thereby said to have a wife, they judge by physical standards, pertaining to flesh and blood. The process of begetting is no the same in all things but occurs in each thing according to its own proper characteristics Through animals and humans it occurs through male and female, in plants through germination. God is not of a carnal nature such that He needs intercourse with a woman to beget a son, but is spiritual or intellectual nature, He is above all intellects. Hence generation in Him is to be understood in the manner appropriate to an intellectual nature.

God is not carnal in nature but Pure Spirit and Pure Act. We have to speak by analogy or likeness to what we find in our own nature When our intellect actually understands, it forms something, as it were, an offspring, a mental concept. This concept when expressed outwardly (the voice communicating meaning) we call the outer word. The inner concept is called the “the mental word”. In humans the concept is not the essence of our minds, our understanding is not the very being of our intellects, for if it were we would never be without understanding in actual fact. The inner mental word can be called concept or offspring by analogy, especially when it understands itself.

To be a son, it is necessary that the one begotten have both the nature, and likeness of him from whom he proceeds. God is His Understanding, and it follows that the word that is conceived in His intellect, has the character of the one from whom it proceeds. The Divine Word is not part of God, for God is simple, but something subsisting in the divine nature. According to human speech that which proceeds from another with the same nature and likeness is said to be a son. In so far as the divine can be described in human terms we call the Word of the Divine Intellect, the Son of God.

God who is the Word, we call Father, and the “procession of the word” we term the generation of the Son. The Word of God (the Son) is coeternal with God Himself. God understands all things simultaneously and by a single act. His understanding is one with His being. I t follows that in God there is only one Word. The one Word matches fully the power of God, because God through His Essence understands Himself, and all else
Therefore as great as is His essence, so great is the Word which by His essence He conceived, understanding Himself, it is therefore perfect and simple and equal to
God.
The Word we call the Son of God, the same nature as the Father, we call Him the Father’s coeternal, and only begotten and perfect Son.

For unbelievers to dispute articles of Faith, we should not try to prove faith with reason, for such a procedure would deprive the faith of it’s sublime quality, the truth which transcends the human mind, for this is due to Divine Revelation. We defend our faith, and to show it is reasonable, and not false.

Isn’t the doctrine of Trinity one of reason which make faith too difficult to grasp? Perhaps(surely!) that disconcert and cofuse minds. Everybody is not good in philosophy.

The order and unity of universe show one, odd, unique God. Because if there have been more than one God it would be impossible to maintain and achieve that unity and order. Two governors cannot run and manage a city in order and it is not impotand how much they love each other. How can three personality God run universe in order?

The problem is not with being physical or beyond of physical. Is Son to be assumed as another God with eternal attributes or is Son a kind of manifestation of Father? I cannot understand that candidly. But I will treat both.

If you assume Son as another eternal God then there are many problems and conflicts with that. And human nature of Son is another conflict.

Two different persons cannot connect in one personality. So three divine entity cannot consort in one. If all are equal then all must have same entitlement. So what will happen if that three persons do not agree?

If Son is inferior(because Jesus always say that ı will ask from God) then Son cannot be divine and God because there are not any grades in deity. And all attributes of deity is eternal and cannot be inferior.

Why did Jesus obey what exactly God ordered? Did not Jesus have power and will to do anything by Himself?

Does not Father have any love for Son because Father sacrifice His Son? Or God’s love for humans is more great than for Son. Why does not father love Son? If father had loved Son then father should not want anything like that from Son!

God does not need matter to proceed or act. So God does not need Holy Spirit to act. God does not need a Son to forgive humans. God will harm His family to save humans. Hiimmmm!!!

As you see there will be many question if you assert that God is three in one. And if you want to support faith you must be more obvious.

And if Son is manifestation of Father but all creatures are manfestation of power, will and all other attributions of God. The power I have is not belong to me but is God’s. God gave human a free will to use that.

I do not intend to dispute faith but I want to support faith.

Jesus had never said “we are three but we can be recognised as one”. The word of “Father” mean Lord. In that manner God is Father of all people and God is Father of me too. We are chidren of God. I always want from my Father as Jesus did.

 

[ynotzap]

Isn’t the doctrine of Trinity one of reason which make faith too difficult to grasp? Perhaps(surely!) that disconcert and cofuse minds. Everybody is not good in philosophy.

Answer:
The Doctrine of the Trinity is the product of Divine REvelation taken from the Bible. Which Muslims do not accept in it’s entirety . Reason and Revelation are synthesized, brought together in it’s translation, and with the gift of infallibility granted to the Church by God, in the person of Jesus Christ it is promulgated as an article of faith. So it is not a doctrine of reason, although it is found reasonable. Not all Christians are philosophers or theologians, that’s why we have a teaching body in the church called the magisterium. Even a child can believe and doesn’t need those deeper understandings of faith, it is taught, then accepted by the gift of grace (from the Holy Spirit). Faith in Christianity is a gift, not a product of reason ,merited by Jesus Christ, who is the expression of the Father’s love for humanity. If you do not understand the essential message of the Bible, you will never understand Christianity, and it all centers on Jesus Christ who we regard as God-man. If Jesus is not accepted as God and Savior, evil will continue dominate all peoples, wars, and killings will continue, and sickness, and desease will affect humanity. We understand that Satan is real, and Jesus, God-man came to redeem us from his power, and give us His Holy Spirit who makes us children of God by divine adoption through Baptism. This is our belief contained in divine revelation. It is Satan who causes division in human society, he causes heresies to exist where humans start their own faiths, and take the place of Jesus Christ, and make their own private interpretations of the Bible. This is why we have so many faiths, and churches. We have one God, like the clover plant with three leaves and one stem, The Trinity. We did not make this up, it is contained in Divine Revelation.

The order and unity of universe show one, odd, unique God. Because if there have been more than one God it would be impossible to maintain and achieve that unity and order. Two governors cannot run and manage a city in order and it is not impotand how much they love each other. How can three personality God run universe in order?

Answer:
There are three Divine Persons in One God, not three Gods. A simple way to look at this is to imagine the Father as the Administrator, the Son (Jesus) as the Legislator, and the Holy Spirit as the Executor. God is Unity no division is possible

The problem is not with being physical or beyond of physical. Is Son to be assumed as another God with eternal attributes or is Son a kind of manifestation of Father? I cannot understand that candidly. But I will treat both.

Answer

The Son is the perfect reflection of the Father, and one with Him, not two Gods, revealed in the Bible.

If you assume Son as another eternal God then there are many problems and conflicts with that. And human nature of Son is another conflict.

Answer:

Son is not another eternal God, and there is no conflict with the Son and human nature when understood correctly. Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity assumed human nature from Mary, the Angel Gabriel announce to Mary that she was to be the Mother of God(referring to Jesus Christ) Jesus had two natures, a divine, and human nature, but He had one divine personality not a human personality, It is called the :Hypostatic Union"

Two different persons cannot connect in one personality. So three divine entity cannot consort in one. If all are equal then all must have same entitlement. So what will happen if that three persons do not agree?

Answer:

Personality is individual and distinct, separate personalities. They are all one God subsisting in each other, this is a Divine Mystery, we can only use analogy. We humans can only understand what God reveals to us, not how He exists, or all the detail about Him The human mind is limited, and finite. God does not contradict Himself, there is always agreement.

If Son is inferior(because Jesus always say that ı will ask from God) then Son cannot be divine and God because there are not any grades in deity. And all attributes of deity is eternal and cannot be inferior.

Answer: The Father precedes the Son in succession, He is begotten of the Father this does not mean that He is not equal to the Father, He is equal to the Father as explained in another post. One is not inferior to another, all are one God. (a Mystery of Faith)

Why did Jesus obey what exactly God ordered? Did not Jesus have power and will to do anything by Himself?

Answer: Jesus willed to do the Father’s will, to give His human life for many. There is unity of mind with the Three Divine Persons

Does not Father have any love for Son because Father sacrifice His Son? Or God’s love for humans is more great than for Son. Why does not father love Son? If father had loved Son then father should not want anything like that from Son!

Answer:
The Father loves His Son, and wills all creation to bow before His Son, all knees shall bend, in heaven , on earth, and in hell. Jesus said glorify Me with the Glory I had with you before the world was made, and the Father said, I have glorified you, and will glorify you again" You do not comprehend the mystery of Salvation, and the Father’s love for His Son, and for his creation. Creation was made for Jesus, by Jesus, and through Jesus. The Qur"an will never teach it. The Bible will. Death could not hold Jesus, He resurrected for He commands life. He gave up as a sacrifice, His humanity, not His Divinity.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

If you accept the common understanding of God through philosophy, this can’t be so. The relations are necessary

If the relations are necessary, God isn’t omnipotent.

 

[ynotzap]

Is

God does not need matter to proceed or act. So God does not need Holy Spirit to act. God does not need a Son to forgive humans. God will harm His family to save humans. Hiimmmm!!!

Answer:

God subsist in Himself, the Three Divine Persons subsist in One God, they have no needs, they are in full agreement with each other, there is Unity in the Trinity. Jesus came to earth to redeem humanity by the Father’s will, He gave up his humanity as a sacrifice for man’s sins. Death could not hold Him, for He is God who resurrected…

As you see there will be many question if you assert that God is three in one. And if you want to support faith you must be more obvious.

Answer:
That is what I am doing (the best I can)

And if Son is manifestation of Father but all creatures are manfestation of power, will and all other attributions of God. The power I have is not belong to me but is God’s. God gave human a free will to use that.

Answer: God is His Attributes, we are not the attributes of God, but He has endowed us with attributes. What do we have that wasn’t given to us by God. Jesus gave us the example of how we are to do God’s will even if it means giving up our lives.

I do not intend to dispute faith but I want to support faith.

Answer:
That is good, but there is only one true faith because there is only one True God, and we must worship in truth, and belief as He wills. Not all faiths have the same beliefs, but actually contradict each other, God is not the Author of Confusion but of Unity, one Lord, one Shepherd, one God.

Jesus had never said “we are three but we can be recognised as one”. The word of “Father” mean Lord. In that manner God is Father of all people and God is Father of me too. We are chidren of God. I always want from my Father as Jesus did.

Answer:
When Jesus was baptized by ST, John the Baptist, a Dove appeared over Him (the Holy Spirit), and a voice was heard (the Father) saying “This is my Son in whom I am well pleased” We are all children of God. And Jesus came to bring His Father’s children home, He is the Divine Shepherd that leads His sheep. I agree we all want the love of God, and seek to love Him by doing His will as Jesus did.

 

[Karen107]

Until here it is okay.

Jesus said God is one but did not say we are three but in one!

If you assume three eternal persons then you cannot connect and assemble that three persons in one personality. If there are three persons then there are three persons. Generally it is so difficult for two persons to agree in a simple issue. Now three eternal persons would always agree in countless issues!!! The problem is not about being spiritual or material. But every person has willpower. There is no degree in deity. So Son must not be inferior than Father. But Jesus always say “I will ask from Father!”

So you may say that Jesus do that with His will and with “love”. Does Father has not any love to sacrifice Himself for Son?

Jesus was a man(prophet) and He performed some miracles as some other prophets did. So is there anything superior else?

If Jesus was % 100 human then Jesus had a human soul and human body. A human soul cannot compose and unity with divine entity. What happened to human side of Jesus. Will we respect that human(% 100 human side of Jesus) as divine in Heaven or as a normal human? Or will that human stay at right of God(three) as a half-god? So do we have three and a half God?

Now you’re just going around what I said…

That’s why he is Our Savior… You said…

A human soul cannot compose and unity with divine entity.

Humans could not but Jesus could… Mary was Jesus Mother and God the Father was with Jesus always even when Jesus became man… I will reiterate the scripture so please pay attention to them before contradicting them. Jesus says WHILE He was in His human state… …

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

Jesus was fully God and Fully man…Jesus was superior to any prophet because Jesus was God, He showed us miracles done with His hand and because of His death He allowed us to enter heaven through Him who is the ‘gate’ as He says…

John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Jesus resurrected from the dead because Jesus is God and so was lifted up and enthroned in heaven, but Jesus body was changed into a glorified state. As for us, when we die our souls (the spiritual being), will separate from our physical bodies but Our Bodies will also change into a glorified state at the end of time at the resurrection of the Body of Christ and we will also be one with God as a body (many people sharing one faith in Christ).

Yes, Jesus can and is because Jesus is God made flesh… Jesus mother was Mary and Jesus was born of the Father meaning made of the same stuff as the Father. Begotten, not made from the Father… It’s like if you had a big piece of cotton candy and from the cotton candy a little piece is broken off called the Son of the Candy… It doesn’t mean that the Son is something other than Cotton Candy it means that it that little piece has a different role than the Bigger Piece of cotton candy would have,… Put it all together, and that’s the role of the Holy Spirit which allows us to be part of that Sonship having also become cotton candy (our spiritual selves),I know that seems silly but I am trying to illustrate a point that being son of God does not mean literal son of God as put in human terms… Jesus is called Son of God to indicate that He is fully God and what that meant, and Son of Man to indicate He was fully man and what that meant… We are sons and daughters of God, but through adoption…

I’ll show you exactly where in Scriptures Jesus is first identified by Christians as God…

John 20: 26 A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Now that I’ve covered all this you should be okay and begin to understand… If not, well, there’s always hope yet you’ll come to the truth which is a mystery, that helps our mind know God the Father because Jesus reveals the Father to us…
Now look at these dramatic statements Jesus made…

John 13:3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

John 17:25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.

28 Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, “Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own authority, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, 29** but I know him because I am from him and he sent me.”
**

See that… Jesus said I am from him and he sent me…Those are the words of authority that he claims that He is from him… See there Jesus is not saying I’m His son… He said I am from him… Even that statement should tell you that He calls Himself ‘I am’… who else calls themselves I am but God?? Well Jesus calls Himself I am a lot…

I am the living bread
I am the living water
I am the resurrection and the life
I am the way and the truth and the life
I am the light
I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end… Only someone who is God can claim these things…

 

[Karen107]

So Son must not be inferior than Father. But Jesus always say “I will ask from Father!”

So you may say that Jesus do that with His will and with “love”. Does Father has not any love to sacrifice Himself for Son?

Missed this…
You ask:…
So Son must not be inferior than Father. But Jesus always say “I will ask from Father!”

Why did Jesus pray to the Father… Well prayer is a conversation… In the case of Jesus in the scriptures, Jesus was talking to the Father in His human state because they are both “persons” of God and Jesus human state needed support to deal with what He had to deal with.We learned early on that Jesus, Son of Man, grew in wisdom and knowledge with Mary and Joseph teaching Him many things, including things about the scriptures because they were very holy people and knew the scriptures and what it means to be holy. So Jesus was very human so when faced with knowing He was going to die a terrible death, He spoke to The Father about it… This is also another example that we as Christians must learn from… That we need to pray to the Father for help and support in our times of need…Jesus came to us to teach us how to pray, what to do… etc… so His whole life was an example to us…

.Soo… If you were in trouble you might also speak to God the Father about it… All authority of the Father has been placed in the Son is true as Jesus says, so that makes the Father and the Son equal in divine ship, but each have their own roles to bring us in union with God the Father in heaven…

The second question… God didn’t sacrifice His Son, God sacrificed Himself because the Father and the Son are one… And that was the Loving thing God did for us was become man so that no more animal sacrifices would be made to the Father but only the Sacrifice He Himself made of Himself… The Will of God is in the Father and Jesus who was perfect man, did the will of the Father…

 

[hasantas]

=ynotzap;12839304]

Isn’t the doctrine of Trinity one of reason which make faith too difficult to grasp? Perhaps(surely!) that disconcert and cofuse minds. Everybody is not good in philosophy.

Answer:
The Doctrine of the Trinity is the product of Divine REvelation taken from the Bible. Which Muslims do not accept in it’s entirety . Reason and Revelation are synthesized, brought together in it’s translation, and with the gift of infallibility granted to the Church by God, in the person of Jesus Christ it is promulgated as an article of faith. So it is not a doctrine of reason, although it is found reasonable. Not all Christians are philosophers or theologians, that’s why we have a teaching body in the church called the magisterium. Even a child can believe and doesn’t need those deeper understandings of faith, it is taught, then accepted by the gift of grace (from the Holy Spirit). Faith in Christianity is a gift, not a product of reason ,merited by Jesus Christ, who is the expression of the Father’s love for humanity. If you do not understand the essential message of the Bible, you will never understand Christianity, and it all centers on Jesus Christ who we regard as God-man. If Jesus is not accepted as God and Savior, evil will continue dominate all peoples, wars, and killings will continue, and sickness, and desease will affect humanity. We understand that Satan is real, and Jesus, God-man came to redeem us from his power, and give us His Holy Spirit who makes us children of God by divine adoption through Baptism. This is our belief contained in divine revelation. It is Satan who causes division in human society, he causes heresies to exist where humans start their own faiths, and take the place of Jesus Christ, and make their own private interpretations of the Bible. This is why we have so many faiths, and churches. We have one God, like the clover plant with three leaves and one stem, The Trinity. We did not make this up, it is contained in Divine Revelation.

 

[Karen107]

=ynotzap;12839304]