Love vs Lust in commanding the body

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It appears that God meant our generative organs to be moved by love (consenting will - decision), but now because of sin they are moved by lust. However, perhaps in the pursuit of virtue some people are able to control them…

Any one ever successful in commanding them at will?
Hence it is that even the philosophers who have approximated to the truth have avowed that anger and lust are vicious mental emotions, because, even when exercised towards objects which wisdom does not prohibit, they are moved in an ungoverned and inordinate manner, and consequently need the regulation of mind and reason. And they assert that this third part of the mind is posted as it were in a kind of citadel, to give rule to these other parts, so that, while it rules and they serve, man’s righteousness is preserved without a breach. These parts, then, which they acknowledge to be vicious even in a wise and temperate man, so that the mind, by its composing and restraining influence, must bridle and recall them from those objects towards which they are unlawfully moved, and give them access to those which the law of wisdom sanctions,— that anger, e.g., may be allowed for the enforcement of a just authority, and lust for the duty of propagating offspring—these parts, I say, were not vicious in Paradise before sin, for they were never moved in opposition to a holy will towards any object from which it was necessary that they should be withheld by the restraining bridle of reason. For though now they are moved in this way, and are regulated by a bridling and restraining power, which those who live temperately, justly, and godly exercise, sometimes with ease, and sometimes with greater difficulty, this is not the sound health of nature, but the weakness which results from sin. And how is it that shame does not hide the acts and words dictated by anger or other emotions, as it covers the motions of lust, unless because the members of the body which we employ for accomplishing them are moved, not by the emotions themselves, but by the authority of the consenting will? For he who in his anger rails at or even strikes some one, could not do so were not his tongue and hand moved by the authority of the will, as also they are moved when there is no anger. But the organs of generation are so subjected to the rule of lust, that they have no motion but what it communicates. It is this we are ashamed of; it is this which blushingly hides from the eyes of onlookers. And rather will a man endure a crowd of witnesses when he is unjustly venting his anger on some one, than the eye of one man when he innocently copulates with his wife. - St. Augustine
 
More about mastery of the body from St. Augustine:
For we move at will not only those members which are furnished with joints of solid bone, as the hands, feet, and fingers, but we move also at will those which are composed of slack and soft nerves: we can put them in motion, or stretch them out, or bend and twist them, or contract and stiffen them, as we do with the muscles of the mouth and face. The lungs, which are the very tenderest of the viscera except the brain, and are therefore carefully sheltered in the cavity of the chest, yet for all purposes of inhaling and exhaling the breath, and of uttering and modulating the voice, are obedient to the will when we breathe, exhale, speak, shout, or sing, just as the bellows obey the smith or the organist. I will not press the fact that some animals have a natural power to move a single spot of the skin with which their whole body is covered, if they have felt on it anything they wish to drive off—a power so great, that by this shivering tremor of the skin they can not only shake off flies that have settled on them, but even spears that have fixed in their flesh. Man, it is true, has not this power; but is this any reason for supposing that God could not give it to such creatures as He wished to possess it? And therefore man himself also might very well have enjoyed absolute power over his members had he not forfeited it by his disobedience; for it was not difficult for God to form him so that what is now moved in his body only by lust should have been moved only at will.
We know, too, that some men are differently constituted from others, and have some rare and remarkable faculty of doing with their body what other men can by no effort do, and, indeed, scarcely believe when they hear of others doing. There are persons who can move their ears, either one at a time, or both together. There are some who, without moving the head, can bring the hair down upon the forehead, and move the whole scalp backwards and forwards at pleasure. Some, by lightly pressing their stomach, bring up an incredible quantity and variety of things they have swallowed, and produce whatever they please, quite whole, as if out of a bag. Some so accurately mimic the voices of birds and beasts and other men, that, unless they are seen, the difference cannot be told. Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing. I myself have known a man who was accustomed to sweat whenever he wished. It is well known that some weep when they please, and shed a flood of tears. But far more incredible is that which some of our brethren saw quite recently. There was a presbyter called Restitutus, in the parish of the Calamensian Church, who, as often as he pleased (and he was asked to do this by those who desired to witness so remarkable a phenomenon), on some one imitating the wailings of mourners, became so insensible, and lay in a state so like death, that not only had he no feeling when they pinched and pricked him, but even when fire was applied to him, and he was burned by it, he had no sense of pain except afterwards from the wound. And that his body remained motionless, not by reason of his self-command, but because he was insensible, was proved by the fact that he breathed no more than a dead man; and yet he said that, when any one spoke with more than ordinary distinctness, he heard the voice, but as if it were a long way off. Seeing, then, that even in this mortal and miserable life the body serves some men by many remarkable movements and moods beyond the ordinary course of nature, what reason is there for doubting that, before man was involved by his sin in this weak and corruptible condition, his members might have served his will for the propagation of offspring without lust? Man has been given over to himself because he abandoned God, while he sought to be self-satisfying; and disobeying God, he could not obey even himself. Hence it is that he is involved in the obvious misery of being unable to live as he wishes. For if he lived as he wished, he would think himself blessed; but he could not be so if he lived wickedly.
  • St. Augustine
 
If lust is sinful and marital intercourse is not sinful, then it occurs marital intercourse is not lustful, which means the generative organs seem not to be moved by lust during it.

As for moving in the kinetic sense, that’s impossible for anatomic reasons that I won’t go into detail of (and it doesn’t seem St Aquinas meant that kind of moving, either). It leaves you with controlling your passions and not giving in to lust.

To answer your question, yes, you can learn to handle your body and mind in such a way as for the temptation to pass sooner. Generally if you get your mind off it, you forget the body and then the sex drive gets no feed, so it dies.

Reminds me of that Indian tale about two wolves fighting, one being the good in you and the other the evil in you. Which one wins? The one you feed.
 
If lust is sinful and marital intercourse is not sinful, then it occurs marital intercourse is not lustful, which means the generative organs seem not to be moved by lust during it.

As for moving in the kinetic sense, that’s impossible for anatomic reasons that I won’t go into detail of (and it doesn’t seem St Aquinas meant that kind of moving, either). It leaves you with controlling your passions and not giving in to lust.

To answer your question, yes, you can learn to handle your body and mind in such a way as for the temptation to pass sooner. Generally if you get your mind off it, you forget the body and then the sex drive gets no feed, so it dies.

Reminds me of that Indian tale about two wolves fighting, one being the good in you and the other the evil in you. Which one wins? The one you feed.
What you said is consistant with the wolf tale. But our bodies are not supposed to be like separate animals.
However they are because of sin. So I agree that good food grow a good wolf. But I would think that this is at the beginning of the road to recoverly. Because at the end, our body are one as our soul, and we should be able not only to control the passions, but to control our members by the power of the single passion which is love (from concenting will in the heart)
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature. - CCC
 
What you said is consistant with the wolf tale. But our bodies are not supposed to be like separate animals.
However they are because of sin. So I agree that good food grow a good wolf. But I would think that this is at the beginning of the road to recoverly. Because at the end, our body are one as our soul, and we should be able not only to control the passions, but to control our members by the power of the single passion which is love (from concenting will in the heart)
We are to control ourselves and grow in purity, but the point is not to do zen and learn to control those muscles with our brain, but to become pure in our hearts.
 
We are to control ourselves and grow in purity, but the point is not to do zen and learn to control those muscles with our brain, but to become pure in our hearts.
Yes, to be pure in heart. I like that. Thanks.
 
It appears that God meant our generative organs to be moved by love (consenting will - decision), but now because of sin they are moved by lust. However, perhaps in the pursuit of virtue some people are able to control them…

Any one ever successful in commanding them at will?
Infants and small children who are incapable of lust or romantic love experience a moving of the generative organs all of the time. So there goes that theory.

According to researchers, the feelings of sexual desire in adults involve at least four interlocking physiological systems, at least eleven different regions of the brain, more than thirty biochemical mechanisms, and literally hundreds of specific genes supporting various processes. Good luck commanding them at will!

There are women that I see in the course of my day to day life that set every single one of these internal mechanisms into motion the minute they walk into the room. This is simple biology. There is no sin in that.

At what point does one become guilty of sin? Probably at the point when a man deliberately allows himself to become consumed with fantasies about the bosses secretary or actually commits to the persuit of actually “bedding” her.

Another sinful thing that men will do is engage in locker room talk about women they work with. To me, these conversations can be far more sinful than any fleeting erotic thought.

😉
 
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