Loving Bin Laden

[Valke2]

You may also want to quote the passage where Jesus flipped tables at the table for having turned the temple into a marketplace, but let me just point out that there is such a thing as justified anger, as all emotions are good, they are God given. But don’t let that anger turn into hate.

Why not. If all emotions are good, then hatred under the right circumstances is good.

So it’s either your opinion or Jesus’ commandments. What will it be?

My opinion. But even so, I don’t agree with your itnerpetation of Jesus’ teaching.

One definition of hatred, set forth in the Catholic encyclopdia:

… is that in which the intense dislike is concentrated primarily on the qualities or attributes of a person, and only secondarily, and as it were derivatively, upon the person himself.
Furthermore one may without sin go so far in the detestation of wrongdoing as to wish that which for its perpetrator is a very well-defined evil, yet under another aspect is a much more signal good. For instance, it would be lawful to pray for the death of a perniciously active heresiarch with a view to putting a stop to his ravages among the Christian people.

Still, even when the motive of one’s aversion is not impersonal, when, namely, it arises from the damage we may have sustained at the hands of others, we are not guilty of sin unless besides feeling indignation we yield to an aversion unwarranted by the by the hurt we have suffered.

In other words it is not a sin to hate in proportion to the damage the person has done. That being the case, there can really be no limit on the hatred I may have toward Bin Laden.

 

[Shoshana]

I think it makes a mockery of Jesus to interpet his words as requiring you to love a Bin Laden. The person who mocks you, or cheats you out of some money, or slanders you in front of your friends – him you should love. Bin Laden, not so much.

The reason the pciture was posted is because nilofc mentioned Jesus embracing His cross.

Sometimes, we too have to embrace our cross in forgiving someone like OBL. Forgiving does not necessarily mean having the appropriate emotion. I is a decision. The will to forgive him is exactly what love is all about. Love is also a decision. We choose to forgive…the emotion will follow through.

 

[Valke2]

The reason the pciture was posted is because nilofc mentioned Jesus embracing His cross.

Sometimes, we too have to embrace our cross in forgiving someone like OBL. Forgiving does not necessarily mean having the appropriate emotion. I is a decision. The will to forgive him is exactly what love is all about. Love is also a decision. We choose to forgive…the emotion will follow through.

I did not mean the picture made a mockey out of anything. I meant the idea of forgiving someone like Bin Laden.

 

[nilofc]

I think it makes a mockery of Jesus to interpet his words as requiring you to love a Bin Laden. The person who mocks you, or cheats you out of some money, or slanders you in front of your friends – him you should love. Bin Laden, not so much.

I think its much more of a mockery to say that God’s love and forgiveness is selective.

I am not advocating anything but God’s mercy and forgiveness for all men. But seriously, you think killing 3,000 people in the world trade center is worse than the 4,400 babies being killed everyday at the abortion mills in this country?

January 22, 1973 is the time when the mother’s womb became the most dangerous place in the world. It is the time when a few select Justices has taken over this society and took away power from congress, the true representative of the people.

These things are dreadful, but in both scenarios you are called to love.

Do I dare to say the Bin Laden is made in the image and likeness of God? Do I dare to say that Adolf Hitler is made in the image and likeness of God?

YES.

What about the medical practitioners who murder thousands of defenseless babies everyday (more than those killed in WTC). Do I dare say that they are made in the image and likeness of God?

YES.

The ball is in your side of the court.

Did Jesus ever exclude any group of people from His mercy and forgiveness?

If God can forgive the most hardened of sinners. Who are you not to forgive?

Peace Brother.

 

[Valke2]

I think its much more of a mockery to say that God’s love and forgiveness is selective.

I am not advocating anything but God’s mercy and forgiveness for all men. But seriously, you think killing 3,000 people in the world trade center is worse than the 4,400 babies being killed everyday at the abortion mills in this country?

Yes. No question. Bin Laden’s actions were worse.

Bin Laden and Hitler were made in teh image of God. And they preverted that image. Being made in God’s image does not entitle you to unconditional love and forgiveness. Perhaps God does love unconditionally, no matter we do, but I don’t think He expects us to do the same. Especially if to do so will only foster greater evil.

If God can forgive the most hardened of sinners. Who are you not to forgive?

I’m not God. If I could smote Bin Laden and forgive him at the same time, I would.

 

[Valke2]

I think its much more of a mockery to say that God’s love and forgiveness is selective.

I am not advocating anything but God’s mercy and forgiveness for all men. But seriously, you think killing 3,000 people in the world trade center is worse than the 4,400 babies being killed everyday at the abortion mills in this country?

January 22, 1973 is the time when the mother’s womb became the most dangerous place in the world. It is the time when a few select Justices has taken over this society and took away power from congress, the true representative of the people.

These things are dreadful, but in both scenarios you are called to love.

Do I dare to say the Bin Laden is made in the image and likeness of God? Do I dare to say that Adolf Hitler is made in the image and likeness of God?

YES.

What about the medical practitioners who murder thousands of defenseless babies everyday (more than those killed in WTC). Do I dare say that they are made in the image and likeness of God?

YES.

The ball is in your side of the court.

Did Jesus ever exclude any group of people from His mercy and forgiveness?

If God can forgive the most hardened of sinners. Who are you not to forgive?

Peace Brother.

 

[Valke2]

And why should it be wrong to believe God’s love is selective. Numerous times God sets boundaries and zones. And do not Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through Jesus? Isn’t this selective love? Is it a greater sin for me to reject Jesus than for Bin Laden to do what he did and then seek forgivness?

 

[nilofc]

And why should it be wrong to believe God’s love is selective. Numerous times God sets boundaries and zones. And do not Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through Jesus? Isn’t this selective love? Is it a greater sin for me to reject Jesus than for Bin Laden to do what he did and then seek forgivness?

I can see that you are not aware of things like “Extra Ecclesiam, Nulla Salus”, “invincible ignorance”, what composes the church, baptism by desire, baptism by blood.

Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church so you’ll know because your view of God’s selective love is not taught in the Church.

 

[nilofc]

Yes. No question. Bin Laden’s actions were worse.

Both are evil but what’s worse is the murder of a defenseless babies in the hands of medical practitioners who deals with death more than life with the consent of irresponsible parents.

Bin Laden and Hitler were made in teh image of God. And they preverted that image. Being made in God’s image does not entitle you to unconditional love and forgiveness. Perhaps God does love unconditionally, no matter we do, but I don’t think He expects us to do the same. Especially if to do so will only foster greater evil.

Wrong. God expects you to be like Him. Jesus said…“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt. 5:48).

I can see that you’re not aware of the Church’s teaching and what is said in the Scriptures that’s why you have a very opposing view of forgiveness. Brother, I pray that you will seek for the truth and read the scriptures more. Remember, St. Jerome said… “Ignorance of the Bible is ignorance of Christ”

I’m not God. If I could smote Bin Laden and forgive him at the same time, I would.

Isn’t this a very distorted view of forgiveness. Real forgiveness is when your down and humiliated, badly beaten up and have all the reason to hate but choose to forgive your persecuter. Focus on the examples of Jesus…and you’d learn how to genuinely forgive.

Remember in the end when you face God, the same measuring stick will be used on you.

God Bless!

 

[MelanieAnne]

Nilofc, it might help you to understand that Valke is Jewish.

 

[nilofc]

Nilofc, it might help you to understand that Valke is Jewish.

Ok. Got that.

I guess my question is… Is the concept of forgiveness and loving thy enemy different with Jews or any other religion? I guess it is.

Now I understand and appreciate more “the fullness of the truth” in the Church.

I do not mean to undermine any other religion…I just wanted to express that “forgiveness” is in line with the truth of Christ in the Catholic Church.

I am also appreciating my Lord Jesus even more… He taught us to call God …our Father. How revolutionary! How different from other religions who treats God as Master and His subjects as Slaves. I am appreciating how Jesus showed us His infinite mercy and forgiveness. I guess I learned more today, thanks!

God Bless.

 

[Valke2]

Isn’t this a very distorted view of forgiveness. Real forgiveness is when your down and humiliated, badly beaten up and have all the reason to hate but choose to forgive your persecuter. Focus on the examples of Jesus…and you’d learn how to genuinely forgive.

I’m sorry, but if that is the lesson you get from Jesus, it is IMO wrong. And Thank God millions of christians ignored that lesson and fought in WWII.

 

[Valke2]

ALso, I’ve quoted twice now, the teaching of the Catholic Church which states that it is NOT a sin to hate under certain circumstances.

 

[nilofc]

I’m sorry, but if that is the lesson you get from Jesus, it is IMO wrong. And Thank God millions of christians ignored that lesson and fought in WWII.

You are entitled to your own opinion. But then again, God’s commandment and lessons for His children IS and WILL never be wrong.

I also understand that we can never see eye to eye, on the subject of forgiveness, because I talk about Jesus’ mercy, and as for you, you do not believe in Jesus, so why would accept His teachings?

The secular world view of forgiveness is this, "I am on top, I will forgive you and I will let you pass this time. Consider yourself lucky, I don’t strike you down before I forgive you because most of the time I do".

Our concept of forgiveness, is to forgive 70 x 7. Seven is covenant. I give myself entirely to God, as God gives Himself entirely to me. And as God commanded me to love my neighbor and forgive those who have wronged me, then I give myself entirely to Him. As I wish to die to myself everyday, to carry and embrace my cross. And I do that for the love of God as He calls me to love everyone may they be Jew, Muslim or what have you.

He does not ask to me be a punching bag but a light to the world. Big difference.

Nobody can measure up to Jesus’s standards that’s why we need to ask for His grace.

 

[nilofc]

ALso, I’ve quoted twice now, the teaching of the Catholic Church which states that it is NOT a sin to hate under certain circumstances.

Quote it again because I think you are misquoting and misunderstood it. But if you are basing it from a catholic encylopaedia…I will not be sure about that. Unless you can quote directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I don’t think anybody here will take it seriously.

 

[Valke2]

Quote it again because I think you are misquoting and misunderstood it. But if you are basing it from a catholic encylopaedia…I will not be sure about that. Unless you can quote directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I don’t think anybody here will take it seriously.

See post 81

 

[nilofc]

See post 81

Thanks.

As I said, unless you can quote directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church saying that we can pray for the death of someone who is against our faith, you will not amount much. Because this is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

A bad catholic who pick and choose only from the catholic teachings he is most comfortable with can certainly write a catholic view on a certain topic but it doesn’t mean that what he wrote is what the Church teaches.

You can best learn about the Church’s teaching if you will go directly to the source itself.

 

[Valke2]

Thanks.

As I said, unless you can quote directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church saying that we can pray for the death of someone who is against our faith, you will not amount much. Because this is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

A bad catholic who pick and choose only from the catholic teachings he is most comfortable with can certainly write a catholic view on a certain topic but it doesn’t mean that what he wrote is what the Church teaches.

You can best learn about the Church’s teaching if you will go directly to the source itself.

Post 81 was a direct quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia. I don’t recall if there were footnotes, I’ll check and get back to you. Are you saying the Catholic Encylopedia has articles that contradict Church teachings?

 

[Teeliumtrozzle]

I don’t know much about Bin Laden. I heard he was executed last year. I don’t know now weather that is true, maybe I confused him with Sadam Hussein. But I trust that God will deal with him.

 

[nilofc]

Post 81 was a direct quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia. I don’t recall if there were footnotes, I’ll check and get back to you. Are you saying the Catholic Encylopedia has articles that contradict Church teachings?

This I can tell you…

• Tertullian died out of communion as a Montanist
• St. Agustine once held the view of Delayed Ensoulment but later recanted because it is not in line with the teaching of the Catholic Church.
• Peter denied Jesus three times.
• Thomas doubted the risen Christ
• A lot of so called catholic theologians accepts the positive view of contraception.

The Church and its teaching is perfect and infalliable for the gates of hell will not prevail against it. But no so with its members. For we are all sinners.

If you really want to know the compendium of the catholic truths … buy the large green book called the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

As Bishop Fulton Sheen once said "There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church."