Loving God in a Divided Church

[Kendy]

Sherlock:

I’m sorry you didn’t have a good experience with Catholics, but then that’s often a case of locality: my parish is vibrant and on fire (and yes, we read Scripture). From what I hear you saying, it’s possible that if you had been going to my parish, you might not have left. How sad that your faith is dependent on your assessment of what those in the pews around you are doing! Here’s a hint: people will always disappoint you, no matter where you are. It’s better to seek truth than to use men as your guide.

Of course, people will disappoint you. I did not leave the church because I thought people were not perfect. I left the church because the people around me were very nonchalant. The first thing I thought when I visited this board is I have never met catholics who care this much about faith.

 

[Kendy]

Jayson:

Please reconsider your decision, and also look inside yourself. Could the experience you had of God possibly have just come from your own mind, or from the devil?

I am sorry that you feel the need to disrespect my faith in our Lord.

 

[scylla]

You should see some of the old people in my Church they are so into Christ, and some of the hispanics, not the traditional ones who just go to the parties and Mass on Christmas but the ones who give it their all.

I agree there are many, many Catholics who just go through the motions, but there are many who quietly live out lives of holiness and there are reverts like me who love the Catholic Church now.

I was sick of the Catholic Church because it was boring and I didn’t “get it”. Even my old youth group leader in the Catholic Church from when I was in High School left the Church. For some reason he wouldn’t talk to us and I am trying to get to talk to him because there is so much I want to share, and sometimes it does deserve a closer look.

As it isn’t just what you see, or feel, but what is the truth. You will find the feeling and Catholics on fire. If I just go to Mass on Sundays and look around sometimes I don’t see it, sometimes it’s just inside people, but if I get involved I see them and I now am trying to feed the fire.

You should see the Bible studies we are having now, it is great.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Kendy]

catsrus:

You say this and then follow it with accusation after accusation against the Church that you admit you don’t know much about.
What is your point?
From your post, it looks as though you are here to convert us Catholics from our wayward ways. Gee, where have we heard this before?!? :yawn:

Regardless of what YOU think, “the gates of Hell will not prevail against” The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
No matter how many people like you desert Her and try to preach against Her.

I do not wish to convert anyone to my wayward ways. After spending sometime on this site, I noticed over and over that people seemed baffled as to how anyone could leave the Catholic church. This is strange since many people do this every year, and if this trend continues in Latin America, demographers predict that it will become predominantly protestant in 25 years. With that in mind, I simply wanted to offer you my reasons for leaving the church and to suggest that it might be worth looking into the allegations, even if you are being misunderstood.

 

[scylla]

I know how people leave the Church, it is easy. I did it myself and I understand Kendy.

I frequently participate in Protestant forums but am taking the day off at Catholic.com.

It is worth looking into everything and searching for the truth. We should be willing to follow Christ anywhere, and I frequently post that on the other boards. I find many people who love Jesus but have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Kendy]

DreadVandal:

So are you looking for a perfect Church? I’ve got news for you, you won’t find it. I was raised southern baptist and converted to the Catholic faith. All that wonderful zeal and feelings of being “born again” often masks wickedness and selfishness. I know this personally. Feelings come and go; zeal waxes and wanes; but Jesus promised the apostles to lead them into all truth. If there is no one visible Church that we can identify as preaching the entire truth, then how can we be confident about any Church? The Church is a hospital of sinners. Jesus never promised us that Christians in the Church would not fall away; become cold in their love; or do downright wicked things. I confess that I often struggle; especially with the wickedness and incompetency of our Bishops. But then I realize that the more I am focusing on the wickedness of others in the church, the less I am focusing on my own sins. If I leave the church because I perceive others to be too sinful or not zealous enough; then I am making myself the arbiter of correct christian spirituality and love. I am becoming the judger of hearts. Just something to think about.

I don’t think I was ever so delusional to think I could find a perfect church. If I ever was, I have quickly learned to get over it. On the hand, we all look for like-minded individuals. When I left the church I was not convinced that not being in the catholic church was a hindrance to serving God. I still don’t believe that. However, I could probably serve God just as well in the RCC now but only because I have much deeper roots. When you are a new believer, cafeteria style catholicism and nonchalance does not provide the resources that you need to help you grow in your faith.

CKH

 

[Kendy]

FCEGM:

Kendy, your post made me think of this passage in Theology for Beginners written by the late Frank Sheed:

It’s time for you to learn more about the Church you left.

I am probably going to get jumped on for this, but another thing that has baffled. There seems to be a lot of talk on this site about how people need to research the church fathers and study their catholic faith. I have no problem with research or study, but it is the privilege of the few— those who have the means, access, and the education. I think it would go to explain why so many people are leaving the church. Does the single mother have the time or energy to read the “City of God?” Is the peasant in Mexico in a position to research Vatican II?

Given these contraints, it is the responsibility of believers to reach out with the love of God and to tell the world that he is real and loves you in a very personal (not individualistic) way.

Faith in God should change you. Loving God should arouse passion. While I don’t think that’s all there is to Christian faith, I think if you don’t have that, there’s something wrong because God is wonderful and He is worth getting excited about. That I did not see this in the people around me growing up became increasingly disturbing as I began to take my own faith seriously.

CKH

 

[scylla]

I have been to Mexico a few times now and am sharing what I learned about the Catholic Church with my wife’s family down there and you should see how excited they get with the faith.

Many times when you have something very precious you don’t realize it if you are always around it.
Like the guy who treats his beautiful loving wife crummy until she leaves him.

Sometimes our love for Christ needs a spark, and my spark was getting involved in an Evangelical church, now that I studied my way back to the Church I am trying to share that with cradle Catholics. I even try to share it with Evangelicals and am getting somewhere there too.

I am in love with Christ and the Church He founded because it is something He did for us, no matter how many people don’t see it, even within the Church.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Kendy]

Della:

While I understand your feelings, catsrus, accusations of this kind aren’t going to help the OP. At the risk of being preachy, I would remind you, and all of us including yours truly, that apologetics isn’t about blame or winning points or telling people off–it’s about helping confused people come to understand the truth, beauty, love and joy found within the Catholic Church.

It’s about helping them to recognize that the fullness of truth subsists within the Catholic Church, the Church Christ founded, which he promised would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit, and which will still be saving souls and spreading the Gospel until he returns as he said it would. Don’t you agree with me?

Thank you for defending me. Although I don’t know how I feel about being called confused, but I will take what I can get .

Kendy

 

[kage_ar]

Kendy:

Does the single mother have the time or energy to read the “City of God?” Is the peasant in Mexico in a position to research Vatican II?

Well, City of God is not exactly required reading - that is heady stuff. In America, the internet and libraries make accessable to many more than back in the dark ages when I was in the conversion process

One can pick up a copy of the CCC for about $5 (less at used bookshops) - or your Parish should be able to loan/give a copy out. The same for Bibles. The Bible and the CCC - if you can read, you can study the Faith!

And I have to say, the Mexican immigrants in my Parish are some of the most devout people I’ve ever met!

Kage

 

[mlchance]

Kendy:

Although I went to catholic elementary school, but I didn’t have a good understanding of catholic theology.

And you still don’t. On example:

Kendy:

And then I began to believe in the priesthood of believers.

The Catholic Church has taught the priesthood of all believers long before there were any such things as Protestants.

CCC 1591 The whole Church is a priestly people. Through Baptism all the faithful share in the priesthood of Christ. This participation is called the “common priesthood of the faithful.” Based on this common priesthood and ordered to its service, there exists another participation in the mission of Christ: the ministry conferred by the sacrament of Holy Orders, where the task is to serve in the name and in the person of Christ the Head in the midst of the community.

You’ve not honestly rejected the Church because it is obvious you never really knew her that well to begin with.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Kendy]

rayne89:

Hi! So glad to have you on the forum.

Thank you for your thoughful responses. I initially responded using my inbox so I guess it was posted.

Anyway, I am definitely not talking about quite reverence. I know the difference.

I agree that church is not meant to be a social event. I agree that people jumping from church to church need to seriously consider the commitment to Christ. However, we should “get fed” from church. You come to church to worship God, but also to receive from God. Our God is loving and generous and besides, if he were not giving, it would make it pretty hard for sinful human beings to love him. By “getting fed,” we mean, we go to church to hear from God’s word and to be transformed by it.

Of course we receive the greatest gift of all, Jesus in the Eucharist. As a Catholic leaving that is incomprehensible to me. That is as close as it is humanly possible to get Jesus. What a slap in the face of God it would be to turn that away for “fellowship” knowing the true presence in the Eucharist that we have in the Catholic Church.

As for the Eucharist, I know this much is true. I received the Eucharist for eight years and did not love God through most of it. When I was young, I was just going along with what my parents told me and then as a teenager, I was too afraid to tell them that I didn’t believe. I have not received the Eucharist for ten years, but I am deeply committed to my Christian faith. I love the Lord and want nothing more than to serve Him. I can confidently conclude is that God has continued to love me and guide me while I was not receiving catholic communion.

Keep praying to God to guide you in truth always. Our faith isn’t about “feel-good religion” or about emotional experience it’s about following the will of God, following the church that was founded 2000 years ago that he promised the gates of hell would not prevail against. The church is a “hospital for sinners not a museum of saints” as the famous quote goes. Keep seeking truth always, study the church fathers-the first followers of Christ. ANd pray for unity as I do that someday we will all be one as Jesus instructed “let there be no divisions among you.” God Bless.

Yes, the Christian faith is about following the will of God, but loving should feel good. Of course, we have trials, but we can endure those trials only because loving God feels good.

As for praying God to guide me to the truth, there a presumption there, whether intentionally or not that this not what I do. Not only do I pray regularly now that God’s will would be done in my life. I prayed for several months before I decided to leave the church. I sought God constantly for His will, and while I didn’t here an adudible voice that told me to leave the church, I am pretty confident that the Holy Spirit was with me when I left the church. I am not saying that this is proof that God hates the catholic church, but rather that God ministers to us in many Christian Churches, and I believe that God knew that I was not in an environment that was helping grow spiritually and he moved to an environment where I was.

I have felt so bless by the way God has used that experience to teach me and how he has transformed my family as a result.

One of the things that happended is that my father became a baptist and is now a deacon at the church that I went to. Well, my mother is a pain and my parents marriage really struggled during those years. I think had my father not converted, he would have divorced my mother.

You say, that’s not fair. The church condemns divorce. I know that, but when we were in the church, it was in one ear and out the other. Because we did not experience God in a real way, God’s laws meant less to us. However, since my father has left the church, he has become a different person and this has only improved over the years. He volunteers, gives generously. He doesn’t have the anger he use, he is a lot more patient person, and more importantly, he has learned how to walk with grace in a difficult marriage.

Now, I realize these are all things that the church believes, however, the transformative work that the church professed occured for us outside of the church.

Is it possible that God, in his wisdom, realized that the North Miami Holy Family Catholic Church was not the right place for us to grow closer to Him and brought us to an environment that would have done that? Is it possible that it was God’s will for us to serve Him there?

In Love,
Kendy

 

[DreadVandal]

Kendy:

I don’t think I was ever so delusional to think I could find a perfect church. If I ever was, I have quickly learned to get over it. On the hand, we all look for like-minded individuals. When I left the church I was not convinced that not being in the catholic church was a hindrance to serving God. I still don’t believe that. However, I could probably serve God just as well in the RCC now but only because I have much deeper roots. When you are a new believer, cafeteria style catholicism and nonchalance does not provide the resources that you need to help you grow in your faith.

CKH

I’m just curious: What do you think of the notion that it isn’t about you or me and finding the best place to nurture our faith? Perhaps its about the truth. The only issue that matters is whether we are in Christ’s Church or not. Christ founded one Church with the apostle Peter, and his successors, as its earthly head. If that is the truth, then there is no reason ever to leave the Church. If you leave the Church on the basis of your reading of the bible, then tell me, why should you trust the bible? It was the Catholic Church that determined which Scriptures are authoritative. Without any normative authority, how do you know which books in the bible are the true ones? How do you know a mistake wasn’t made? And by what criteria do you judge whether your current congregation is following Christ’s truth?

 

[DreadVandal]

Kendy:

I am probably going to get jumped on for this, but another thing that has baffled. There seems to be a lot of talk on this site about how people need to research the church fathers and study their catholic faith. I have no problem with research or study, but it is the privilege of the few— those who have the means, access, and the education. I think it would go to explain why so many people are leaving the church. Does the single mother have the time or energy to read the “City of God?” Is the peasant in Mexico in a position to research Vatican II?

Given these contraints, it is the responsibility of believers to reach out with the love of God and to tell the world that he is real and loves you in a very personal (not individualistic) way.

Faith in God should change you. Loving God should arouse passion. While I don’t think that’s all there is to Christian faith, I think if you don’t have that, there’s something wrong because God is wonderful and He is worth getting excited about. That I did not see this in the people around me growing up became increasingly disturbing as I began to take my own faith seriously.

CKH

Perhaps you should read the parable of the sower. All of these problems in the church are found in all of the protestant communions. Jesus never suggested that only the perfect and zealous should worship together. There was an early Church heresy known as Donatism that did suggest that however.

And if zeal and passion are what count, then why not become Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness? They have more zeal and passion and unity than any group. But they are in error and heresy.

 

[DreadVandal]

Kendy:

Yes, the Christian faith is about following the will of God, but loving should feel good. Of course, we have trials, but we can endure those trials only because loving God feels good.

As for praying God to guide me to the truth, there a presumption there, whether intentionally or not that this not what I do. Not only do I pray regularly now that God’s will would be done in my life. I prayed for several months before I decided to leave the church. I sought God constantly for His will, and while I didn’t here an adudible voice that told me to leave the church, I am pretty confident that the Holy Spirit was with me when I left the church. I am not saying that this is proof that God hates the catholic church, but rather that God ministers to us in many Christian Churches, and I believe that God knew that I was not in an environment that was helping grow spiritually and he moved to an environment where I was.

I have felt so bless by the way God has used that experience to teach me and how he has transformed my family as a result.

One of the things that happended is that my father became a baptist and is now a deacon at the church that I went to. Well, my mother is a pain and my parents marriage really struggled during those years. I think had my father not converted, he would have divorced my mother.

You say, that’s not fair. The church condemns divorce. I know that, but when we were in the church, it was in one ear and out the other. Because we did not experience God in a real way, God’s laws meant less to us. However, since my father has left the church, he has become a different person and this has only improved over the years. He volunteers, gives generously. He doesn’t have the anger he use, he is a lot more patient person, and more importantly, he has learned how to walk with grace in a difficult marriage.

Now, I realize these are all things that the church believes, however, the transformative work that the church professed occured for us outside of the church.

Is it possible that God, in his wisdom, realized that the North Miami Holy Family Catholic Church was not the right place for us to grow closer to Him and brought us to an environment that would have done that? Is it possible that it was God’s will for us to serve Him there?

In Love,
Kendy

Okay Kendy, let me give you a hypothetical scenario, using the kind of logic you are using. Here is goes:

“Man, when I was a Christian it was “in one ear and out the other.” Sure, I knew I was “saved” but I didn’t have genuine passion for God and love for people. My wife and I fought a lot and if we had remained Christians we probably would have ended up divorced. But, now that I have embraced Hinduism with my wife and we see the oneness in all things, our marriage is better. I serve at the temple and offer incense and bring joy to other people. I love nature and other people in a way I never would have before. So, you can see that leaving Christianity was a good thing because it brought me closer to God.”

That my friend is essentially the same kind of reasoning that you and your parents are using in order to leave Christ’s Church. Think about it.

 

[DreadVandal]

Kendy:

Yes, the Christian faith is about following the will of God, but loving should feel good. Of course, we have trials, but we can endure those trials only because loving God feels good.
Kendy

Where does Scripture say that loving should “feel good?” Does loving God feel good? Sometimes, but not always. This is your problem. You have been beguiled by 19th century emotionalism and pietism. It is a common problem in contemporary Christianity. Its the religious equivalent of “if it feels good, do it.”

 

[jpete79]

This is amazing to me…

I have watched this thread unfold for a few hours and what I see is unbelievable. Kendy suggests to see more humility in the Catholic Church and gets trampled for it.

Kendy is Protestant and everyone here is pretty much Catholic. Kendy admitted to wanting to know more about God and searching for Him and has accepted Christ as Savior and wants to build a relationship with Him. The response from that is astounding…I have heard there does not need to be joy in the Lord. The feelings can be fruit of the devil. That Christianity is reliant on Catholicism.

CHRIST GAVE THE AUTHORITY AND KENDY IS GIVING IT BACK TO CHRIST JOYFULLY AND WITH CONTENT! This is a sibling in Christ who wants to grow closer and see others grow closer in Christ. There are many people on these boards that I have grown to admire and care for. Many people are here that have a genuine love for God and His Son. I can see in these posts that Kendy is one of the people that shares that love of God and Christ, yet; I don’t see love towards Kendy, I see rebuke and bitterness. Someone that a possible relationship can be built with is being driven away by accusations and words.

A suggestion was offered by Kendy’s hands about humility and what has happened? Essentially an attitude of my Church is better than your Church. If Christ is reading over your shoulder, what do you think he would say about those words? Do you think he would rebuke Kendy (for wanting to search for him) or yourselves (for not accepting Kendy as a sibling in Christ). I think he would talk the same way that he did against the Pharisees and you would be surprised who it would be aimed at.

This post is not for everyone on these boards as like I said, I have been building relationships with many Godly brothers and sisters; but I felt it needed to be said.

God Bless

 

[Kendy]

DreadVandal:

I’m just curious: What do you think of the notion that it isn’t about you or me and finding the best place to nurture our faith? Perhaps its about the truth. The only issue that matters is whether we are in Christ’s Church or not. Christ founded one Church with the apostle Peter, and his successors, as its earthly head. If that is the truth, then there is no reason ever to leave the Church. If you leave the Church on the basis of your reading of the bible, then tell me, why should you trust the bible? It was the Catholic Church that determined which Scriptures are authoritative. Without any normative authority, how do you know which books in the bible are the true ones? How do you know a mistake wasn’t made? And by what criteria do you judge whether your current congregation is following Christ’s truth?

I don’t think seeking truth and finding the right place to nurture my faith are two seperate things. Truth nurtures faith. I think one can reasonably conclude that God wants us to grow in faith, and if that is the case, then you may have leave behind things that are a hindrance.

As for the bible, I don’t believe that Catholic church is wrong about everything, but it seems to me that there was a few hundred years before and after the reformation that the catholic church engaged in serious sin, which hurt the body. This led to schism in the church. I don’t think that is good, but I think God has been merciful enough to minister to believers in a divided church.

How do I know that my church is right? I don’t. I read scripture, try to interpret. If I get confused I ask my pastor or seek the wisdom of other theologians, and I also pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide me.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Kendy:

Is it possible that God, in his wisdom, realized that (his former specific Catholic parish) was not the right place for us to grow closer to Him and brought us to an environment that would have done that? Is it possible that it was God’s will for us to serve Him there?

I don’t know anything about your former parish, but I do know that there are several Catholic parishes that have significant problems in teaching the Catholic faith correctly. From what you describe of your experience in Confirmation and your family’s experience, that may have been part of the problem. I am truly sorry if that is the case. You wrote in another post:

Kendy:

I left the church because the people around me were very nonchalant. The first thing I thought when I visited this board is I have never met catholics who care this much about faith.

I’ll consider that it is possible that God took you out of a parish where you weren’t growing so you could grow in your Christian faith, if you also consider the Holy Spirit may have brought you to this board to guide you back to the Catholic Church. Welcome to the board and I hope you stick around. Maybe you’ll learn some of what your confirmation program didn’t teach you about Catholicism.

 

[Kendy]

DreadVandal:

Perhaps you should read the parable of the sower. All of these problems in the church are found in all of the protestant communions. Jesus never suggested that only the perfect and zealous should worship together. There was an early Church heresy known as Donatism that did suggest that however.

And if zeal and passion are what count, then why not become Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness? They have more zeal and passion and unity than any group. But they are in error and heresy.

You’re right. Zeal is not the only thing that matters, but it is not unimportant.