Loving God More Than You Love Your Beloved

[Mboo]

To love God does not always mean to be attached to our wife or our children ( it is even the opposite which is a sign that we love God in truth), I gave you various types of examples you always said that I was off topic, but I took a more direct example, we can leave our wife because of God. And Jesus himself envisioned it by promising a reward to him who would make it, and Joseph himself was going to repudiate his wife Mary for a just reason.If the angel did not intervene…

 

[obvious_ron]

What would you do if you’re spouse decided God were calling him or her to leave the Catholic Church? Would you follow suit because of your love? Or would you love God more and remain?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

We must love God more than our children, our spouse, our parents. This means that if we face a situation where we have the choice between committing a mortal sin or letting our loved ones suffer and die, we must let our loved ones suffer and die.
For example, if a tormentor asks you to apostatize publicly or it exterminates all your family in great suffering, you must choose that it destroys your family.
If our family, our spouse is indeed our happiness, it will be very difficult or impossible to choose God in such a situation. We will look for any kind of alibi to justify our sin. It will be said, “my first duty is to protect my family”, “if one exterminates my family it is irreparable, yet I could always repair my apostasy by a good confession later”, etc. etc.
Hence the advice of Jesus “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he can not be My disciple”

Actually, that’s not in the CCC. If one fears death one may “commit apostasy” but it’s not considered apostacy–the sin is negated.

Someone just quoted it on another thread but things move so fast around here that I can’t find it.

 

[Mboo]

if someone says to you: “kill this man if not I exterminate your family” if you kill him would you have committed a mortal sin?

 

[AdamP88]

No…because you’d be considered under psychological duress.

 

[AdamP88]

Well…if you’re married in the Church you’d have to both remain Catholic, and also remain married. Your vows would not necessarily be rendered null by your spouse converting to another faith.

 

[AdamP88]

To love God does not always mean to be attached to our wife or our children ( it is even the opposite which is a sign that we love God in truth), I gave you various types of examples you always said that I was off topic, but I took a more direct example, we can leave our wife because of God. And Jesus himself envisioned it by promising a reward to him who would make it, and Joseph himself was going to repudiate his wife Mary for a just reason.If the angel did not intervene…

Well…the Church teaches that marriage is til death.
These were the words of Jesus himself. “He who leaves his wife and marries another commits adultery.”
Married persons are not suddenly called by God into religious life. Their vocation is marriage. Until the death of themselves or their spouse.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

if someone says to you: “kill this man if not I exterminate your family” if you kill him would you have committed a mortal sin?

Mortal sin requires 3 things.

Grave Matter: The act itself is intrinsically evil and immoral. …
Full Knowledge: The person must know that what they’re doing or planning to do is evil and immoral.
Deliberate Consent: The person must freely choose to commit the act or plan to do it.

In this case, only the Grave Matter is fulfilled.

The idea of “full knowledge” can be challenged because the person forced to do this action may believe that the one matters less than the many. And forget deliberate consent…one who is under that much duress cannot have ANY consent, nevermind full consent.

 

[Mboo]

To hear you any sin committed under the passions, is not a mortal sin! it is very curious! therefore St. Peter did not sin by denying Jesus because he did so under the threat of death; that’s it? the lack of full consent means that one commits sin by not having all his attention, that does not mean that one would have committed it under threat! And this is the merit of martyrs, having preferred God to their lives and even to their loved ones. To follow you there would have been no martyrdom, Abraham would never have dared to kill his son because of God etc.
God can never test us beyond our strengths! so whatever the test that we face, if we sin, it is our entire fault.

Concerning the indissolubility of marriage, we must listen to Jesus: “he who leaves his wife and marries another ….” what Jesus condemns is the remarriage and not the possibility of leaving his wife. Indeed, he also promises a reward to those who leave his wife because of him. And Saint Joseph had thought to leaving his wife the Virgin Mary.
he may have a just motives for separating himself from his wife, but he can have no just cause to remarry, for marriage is not necessary for life nor for salvation. If marriage was necessary for someone salvation then remarriage would not always be a sin (simple logic …)

 

[AdamP88]

And this is the merit of martyrs, having preferred God to their lives and even to their loved ones. To follow you there would have been no martyrdom, Abraham would never have dared to kill his son because of God etc.

The martyrs are recognised as having a special devotion to God and the grace and strength to hold fast to the faith in the face of death.
However, if a person was told “reject the faith, or I will kill you and your baby” the person in that case has no right to be the cause of the baby’s death, therefore it would be morally permissible to “reject the faith”. But that would not actually be a rejection as it is under extreme circumstances.

You can’t just categorically assert that anyone who has “apostised” in the face of death or torture is wrong, expecially when the church teaches the opposite.

You also seem to be resistant to just admitting that the many scenarios you are presenting are not something that come up in the everyday lives of most people.

In any case, my vocation is Catholic marriage and that means that I primarily love God through my everyday work and in my love for my wife, and my duties as a married man.

There’s nothing to argue with there…that’s just the Catholic view of marriage.

 

[AdamP88]

he may have a just motives for separating himself from his wife, but he can have no just cause to remarry, for marriage is not necessary for life nor for salvation. If marriage was necessary for someone salvation then remarriage would not always be a sin (simple logic …)

Yes, there may be just cause for seperation in marriage. But one spouse deciding they want to serve God through the religious life is not just cause. In fact the Church does not allow this.

Nobody said that marriage was necessary for salvation. But for the married couple, it is their primary means to salvation. Just as for a religious brother, living the religious life faithfully is their means to salvation.

Both the religious and the married take vows to live a certain way until death. These vows are not to be taken lightly.

Question for you: Can you come up with a specific circumstance that might occur in everyday life to illustrate what you’re trying to say? i.e. a situation where you believe it would be ok for a man to leave his wife for God.

 

[Mboo]

However, if a person was told “reject the faith, or I will kill you and your baby” the person in that case has no right to be the cause of the baby’s death, therefore it would be morally permissible to “reject the faith”. But that would not actually be a rejection as it is under extreme circumstances.

Hmm, you hang on a detail that is not the essence of my question. I do not know if apostasy is an inherently evil sin.
But if someone threatens to kill your child if you do not kill someone he has designated, you have no right to kill that innocent person or you will have committed a mortal sin! Nothing is more serious than seriously offending God! and even if we threaten to exterminate humanity if you do not commit a mortal sin, we must let humanity be destroyed …

 

[AdamP88]

The detail of your question is the only thing you’ve said that relates to the topic. In any case, even that situation is highly unlikely.

I’m asking what “normal” real life situation do you envision where a husband could leave his wife?

You don’t seem to be able to think of one…

 

[Mboo]

Question for you: Can you come up with a specific circumstance that might occur in everyday life to illustrate what you’re trying to say? i.e. a situation where you believe it would be ok for a man to leave his wife for God.

When faced with a bad friendship, there are two attitudes: either we are strong enough not to be corrupted in this case we can always go with this person hoping to change it by our advice or our examples, or we is weak with regard to her and her frequentation regularly leads us to commit sin. In this case we must move away from this person even if it is our wife

 

[AdamP88]

Perhaps, but you’re still married and your responsibility would be to pray for her and be open to the possibility of reconciliation.

Also…this may be more complicated if there are children to consider.

 

[Mboo]

Perhaps, but you’re still married and your responsibility would be to pray for her and be open to the possibility of reconciliation.

Of course, the marriage bond can never be broken

Also…this may be more complicated if there are children to consider.

It is true it is complex, but our salvation, passes before the good of our children, it passes even before the salvation of our children …

 

[AdamP88]

I don’t think you can say that our salvation is more or less important than anyone else’s. Parents are responsible for forming and teaching their kids about the faith. If it’s the case that you have to separate then it’s a fulfillment of your marriage vows in some ways, as you are doing so for the good of the souls of all involved.

That said, it doesn’t really change my original point that the manner in which the married person loves God is primarily through fulfillment of their vows.

 

[Mboo]

I don’t think you can say that our salvation is more or less important than anyone else’s. Parents are responsible for forming and teaching their kids about the faith

This is not my personal opinion, but it is the constant teaching of theologians (including St. Thomas) that one should never sacrifice one’s salvation for that of a third person.
Yes, you must take care of your children’s salvation, but never by putting your own at risk

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

To hear you any sin committed under the passions, is not a mortal sin! it is very curious! therefore St. Peter did not sin by denying Jesus because he did so under the threat of death; that’s it? the lack of full consent means that one commits sin by not having all his attention, that does not mean that one would have committed it under threat! And this is the merit of martyrs, having preferred God to their lives and even to their loved ones. To follow you there would have been no martyrdom, Abraham would never have dared to kill his son because of God etc.
God can never test us beyond our strengths! so whatever the test that we face, if we sin, it is our entire fault.

Concerning the indissolubility of marriage, we must listen to Jesus: “he who leaves his wife and marries another ….” what Jesus condemns is the remarriage and not the possibility of leaving his wife. Indeed, he also promises a reward to those who leave his wife because of him. And Saint Joseph had thought to leaving his wife the Virgin Mary.
he may have a just motives for separating himself from his wife, but he can have no just cause to remarry, for marriage is not necessary for life nor for salvation. If marriage was necessary for someone salvation then remarriage would not always be a sin (simple logic …)

It’s not a sin. According to Catholic teaching, it CANNOT be a sin to be forced to do something. Period.

Now, a Saint is someone who chooses to go beyond what is called for, but it is NOT a sin to feel deprived of a choice and “choose” the “worse” action.

 

[Mboo]

asking to kill someone under threat does not deprive you of your freedom, you have the FREE CHOICE to kill yourself an innocent or to let your enemy kill your loved ones. In this case if you kill the innocent you will have committed a mortal sin …
Consent is not free and complete when an act is performed with a reduced degree of attention. Weakness is not a motive that can make a sin not mortal.