Loving Mary...

[Lev23]

Why not nurture what we agree on?

Even Jesus showed the good that non-believers did when teaching His own followers.

If Jesus could do it, why can’t I?

Nurture?

You are very mixed-up in this line of thinking, and I hope the apologists here help you out.

For one, you want to promote unity of Catholics and Muslims through the love of Mary.

But on every post of yours in the signature is a graphic novel-type drawing of He-man dressed in crusader garb with a mammoth sword, with the very same symbols Muslims are taught to remember what their ancestors fought against.

I don’t think the Vatican are sending Crusaders to the Temple Mount today. There are 2 Islamic shrines up on a Israeli Temple mount. I don’t see how your pride in this event that took place hundreds of years ago can strenghten your unity with Muslims.

 

[2ndGen]

For one, you want to promote unity of Catholics and Muslims through the love of Mary.

 

[2ndGen]

A historical persective to answer the other questions posted so that we can get back to the topic:

youtube.com/watch?v=097Ze7lLeP0

 

[Lev23]

No, I want to see who of the Protestants acknowledge shame that a non-Christian group loves Mary more than them.

I guess no one will admit that because they honestly don’t feel ashamed that a non-Christian group reveres the mother of Jesus more than them.

This thread isn’t about Islam and Catholicism.

It’s about Protestants not loving Mary as much as Catholics and Muslims do.

Acknowledge Shame?!?!?!?!?!?

Again, you speak of “nurturing”. You start a post to magnify your supposed allegations of Protestants lack of love for Mary. You want them to feel shame? But yet you want to nurture things with Muslims based on Mary, but at the same time you try to make those look foolish who love and look to Jesus Christ alone to for life eternal and to seek the Father.

You claim there is a “great magical barrier” from the 16th century, even though Catholics and Protestants still look to Jesus Christ, the only name that one can be saved.

But yet you promote this warm, fuzzy amd sweet nurturing brotherhood for a belief system(Islam) that over and over declares that Allah is not a father and Jesus Christ is not the one who can save the world from eternal damnation.

Again, what are point are you promoting in this thread?

I will tell you this, I believe the whole unbelieving world can be united peacefully under apparitions of Mary or whatever else.

It’s the true Gospel of the real Jesus Christ that the world as a whole fail to unite on.

 

[Lev23]

But enough of you trying to drive a wedge of division here by attempting to ignite a sentiment of wrath.

Remember, if you’re going to drum up history “against” Christians,
.

Why do you say Im “driving wedges and drumming up against” Christians? You say this when it is YOU who want protestants to be ashamed of YOUR view of how protestants glory God for her role of Gods plan for salvation for all mankind compared to Islams distorted view of the biblical account of Mary.

 

[Ceil-1]

Since the approved apparitions of Mary all promote the Gospel and Jesus Christ, the unbelieving world would convert to Christianity. That would be a good thing. I think it is very generous of the Lord to send her here with His messages to straighten up, or else.

You have a prejudice against it, my friend. That is all. This prejudice, unfortunately translates into scorn toward His mother. Prejudice is founded on fear, and that is evident in your post. Why don’t you ask the Lord what your attitude should be and lean not on your own understanding?

 

[2ndGen]

Shame?!?!?!?!?!? Again, you speak of “nurturing”. You start a post to magnify your supposed allegations of Protestants lack of love for Mary.

 

[Lev23]

Since the approved apparitions of Mary all promote the Gospel and Jesus Christ, the unbelieving world would convert to Christianity. That would be a good thing. I think it is very generous of the Lord to send her here with His messages to straighten up, or else.

You have a prejudice against it, my friend. That is all. This prejudice, unfortunately translates into scorn toward His mother. Prejudice is founded on fear, and that is evident in your post. Why don’t you ask the Lord what your attitude should be and lean not on your own understanding?

Not all apparitions are approved. And not one apparition, whoever it is shown by and wheter or not it is approved, NEVER warns of false apparitions of her. Apparitions always put herself before Jesus. I would be cautious of anything that says “build me shrines” or “consecrate yourself to my heart” and such just to get to Jesus.

 

[2ndGen]

Since the approved apparitions of Mary all promote the Gospel and Jesus Christ, the unbelieving world would convert to Christianity. That would be a good thing. I think it is very generous of the Lord to send her here with His messages to straighten up, or else.

You have a prejudice against it, my friend. That is all. This prejudice, unfortunately translates into scorn toward His mother. Prejudice is founded on fear, and that is evident in your post. Why don’t you ask the Lord what your attitude should be and lean not on your own understanding?

150,000 Muslims come to Christ through one of her appartions in Egypt and that’s supposed to be bad?



Did you taste the animosity in his post?

If you talk to them long enough, along with them “not” answering your questions, you’ll hear the veiled insults.



Jesus said to love our enemies.

He obviously doesn’t Muslims or those that love Muslims.

Love doesn’t insult or injure or keeps records of wrongs.

Whatever happened in the past between Muslims and Catholics, that was in the past.

Besides, Protestants have no right to comment on The Crusades. They weren’t invented until 500 years later. They didn’t lose one Protestant soldier in the defense of Christianity.

Funny how the Muslims and the Catholics have worked it out, but the Protestants want to keep it going.

Division, division, division…the “tree” of Protestantism just keep on bearing bad fruit.



(Not all Protestants, because I know that there are many who couldn’t care less what happened a thousand years ago, but just those who continue to dwell in the past…the only time they will mention Christian history prior to the 16th Century, is to point out all of Christianity’s faults before the 16th Century)

 

[2ndGen]

Not all apparitions are approved. And not one apparition, whoever it is shown by and wheter or not it is approved, NEVER warns of false apparitions of her. Apparitions always put herself before Jesus. I would be cautious of anything that says “build me shrines” or “consecrate yourself to my heart” and such just to get to Jesus.

Yeah…he loves Mary “equally” to Muslims.



Ok sport…before you go and espouse a “term” then dissapear, put it up.

Where did Mary say to build her a shrine and to consecrate yourself to her heart.

I know she said it, but I want “you” to see if you know where she said it.

Then, once you do post where you got those phrases from, I will proceed to explain what she meant in the context of “everything” that she said and not just the words you so strategically chose to use.



(Let’s see if he comes back with the answers or more rhetoric!)

 

[Lev23]

Ok sport…before you go and espouse a “term” then dissapear, put it up.



(Let’s see if he comes back with the answers or more rhetoric!)

Sport? Disappear? Are we on a message board or live chat?
Do you know the difference between the two?

In addition, why do you want MY answers when you say everything I wrote up until now is rhetoric?

 

[2ndGen]

Sport? Disappear? Are we on a message board or live chat?
Do you know the difference between the two?

In addition, why do you want MY answers when you say everything I wrote up until now is rhetoric?

Where did Mary say to build her a shrine and to consecrate yourself to her heart.

(does my reposting the request of proof answer your question?)

 

[Lev23]

150,000 Muslims come to Christ through one of her appartions in Egypt and that’s supposed to be bad?



Did you taste the animosity in his post?

If you talk to them long enough, along with them “not” answering your questions, you’ll hear the veiled insults.



Jesus said to love our enemies.

He obviously doesn’t Muslims or those that love Muslims.

Love doesn’t insult or injure or keeps records of wrongs.

Whatever happened in the past between Muslims and Catholics, that was in the past.

Besides, Protestants have no right to comment on The Crusades. They weren’t invented until 500 years later. They didn’t lose one Protestant soldier in the defense of Christianity.

Funny how the Muslims and the Catholics have worked it out, but the Protestants want to keep it going.

Division, division, division…the “tree” of Protestantism just keep on bearing bad fruit.



(Not all Protestants, because I know that there are many who couldn’t care less what happened a thousand years ago, but just those who continue to dwell in the past…the only time they will mention Christian history prior to the 16th Century, is to point out all of Christianity’s faults before the 16th Century)

For the record for the umptenth time on these forums, I love Muslims, its Islam that is anti-Christian. Not only is it a false way to God, it denys all the truths of him and his only son.

And as far as the crusades since you keep bringing them up after I made my point and ceased on the topic------you fail to mention what happened to Jews during those times. Maybe you can start a topic thread up on that.

And how close can Catholicism and Islam get? What have they really worked out?

You speak of all these Muslims converting because of a apparition.

Fine, but then do you know what Islam teaches about those that convert away from its Allah God and Islamic faith? They must be converted back or killed. So how can Islam revere and honor Mary in scriptures, prayers, and veneration when this Mary can cause death towards Muslims going to Catholicsm by the hands of other Muslims that hold true to the letter of the Islamic faith?

Can’t you see this? What confusion going on!

 

[2ndGen]

For the record for the umptenth time on these forums, I love Muslims, its Islam that is anti-Christian. Not only is it a false way to God, it denys all the truths of him and his only son.

 

[Lev23]

Lev23;3189652:

See what you just did? You bring it up first, then you want to “stop” talking about it, then, you suggest we talk a completely new Crusades related topic for another thread.

Reminds me of someone’s quote…“That depends on what the definition of the word “is” is.”



A lot closer than Catholics and Protestants. There’s more dialogue between Muslims than there is with anti-Catholic Protestants.
We have so much more in common. We believe in appartions, in physical manifestations of God by signs, in the veneration of Holy Places, in

Converting to Christianity? Those that did see the appartion did.

Mary is easier for Muslims to love because Muslims have always loved her…Matter of fact, Muslims loved her for 1,000 years before Protestants began to whittle her away (remember, Protestantism’s church fathers, Calvin, Luther and Zwigli loved Mary).

Protestants are the ones who are taught that she’s a “mere” human being not worthy of veneration.

Muslims even have Mosques named after Mary.

Is any anti-Catholic church named after Mary?

I think not.

youtube.com/watch?v=eKmwj29zH_8&feature=related

Fatima

The Moors once occupied Portugal. The village of Fatima was given the Islamic name of the well-loved Princess of the nearby Castle of Ourem. She died at an early age after marrying the Count of Ourem and converting to Catholicism. Baptized with the Christian name of Oureana, she was named at birth “Fatima,” like many other Moslem girls, in honor of the daughter of Mohammed. Of his daughter, Fatima, the founder of Islam, Mohammed, said: “She has the highest place in heaven after the Virgin Mary.”

It is a fact that Moslems from various nations, especially from the Middle East, make so many pilgrimages to Our Lady of Fatima’s Shrine in Portugal that Portuguese officials have expressed concern. The combination of an Islamic name and Islamic devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is a great attraction to Moslems. God is writing straight with crooked lines, as we will see. Fatima is a part of Heaven’s Peace Plan. It is hope for the world.

You have to ask a Muslim that. I cannot speak for their faith, only for the fact that they love Mary.

Focusing on division has been known to cause confusion.

Yes, I could see how you would be confused.

I just brought it up to ask how your show of pride in the crusades by exagerated drawings of a crusader have to do with nurturing ecumentally with Islam through Mary.

I am not focusing on division, but what is the truth. Read up for yourself on what Islam teaches about those that leave the Islamic faith.

 

[2ndGen]

I just brought it up to ask how your show of pride in the crusades by exagerated drawings of a crusader have to do with nurturing ecumentally with Islam through Mary.

 

[2ndGen]

Let me tell you what that image means to me (you mistakenly assumed it was to show off my pride in the crusades).

The image of a knight reminds me of a verse in scripture. It shows strength, lack of fear, courage. I have a strong faith. I cannot help that. I believe in God. I love the fact that I do.

The Templar Knight represents men who were pious, who were chaste, who served God, who served Christians by protecting the roads they traveled on to make pilgrimages to the Holy Land.

Ephesians 6:10-17

10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

There are many other truths that are off topic too. Cars use gas to move. King James was a homosexual pedophile. Bush lied.

But none of them have anything to do with loving Mary.

You were just trying to show me up, to make me look like a hypocrite.

In short, you were trying to take the splinter from my eye.

As for teaching the truth on Islamic apostates, start a thread some where else. This thread is for Protestants to confront why they don’t love Mary more than Muslims.

Matthew 7:3
“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?”

What if a Muslim wanted to point out The Protestant Wars?
Or the Protestant persecutions of Catholics in Northern Ireland? Or King Henry the 8ths barbaric murders of Christians? Or the 8,000 women & children murdered in Rome when the Lutherans attempted to overtake the city? Or the 150,000 murders of women during the Protestant Witch Hunts? Or the 3,500 hundred cases of sexual abuse by Protestants “in” churches that occur every year?

Imagine the can of worms you would’ve opened yourself up to if they were as judgemental of you…as you’ve shown you are of them.

You could point out theological differences, but to pass personal judgement, that’s just not Christian.

But again, there’s alwasy that Post New Topic button you could use.

 

[Heblesses]

I made the statement that Catholics and Muslims love Mary more than Protestants do. For this, I was called presumtuous.

I’d like to give Protestants a format to defend themselves against my statement.

Now, I can’t speak for Muslims in detail, but I know that they love and revere Mary. They even have an entire book of the Koran devoted to her. I’ll hope that a Muslim can enlighten us all (and if neccessary, correct me if I’m wrong on what I believe they feel for her) on how their faith sees Mary, the mother of Jesus.

As for Catholics, I can’t speak for every last Catholic, but generally speaking, we love her. We have no issues with veneration of Mary. We see her as our mother (as Jesus is our brother through our common Father Who is God, The Father).

We ask her to pray for us.

We defend her when others belittle her or impune her reputation.

We are jealous for her image to the world and guard it against misrepresentations.

We praise her.

We mention her regularly.

We have always felt this way, since the beginning of Christianity.

Former Catholics who’d go on to be the church fathers of the Protestant Reformation also venerated Mary (Luther, Calvin, Zwigli, etc…).

The non-veneration of Mary was created post Reformation by anti-Catholic Protestants and is a relatively new practice having only been employed during the last 400 years.

But for 2,000 years, Christianity has loved and revered the woman who gave up her only born Son so that man would be saved.

We are grateful to her.

Jesus, Who is The Life, came through her womb, therefore, our eternal Salvation Who is Christ came through her womb…her womb gave us life…just like a mother does to any child born naturally.

Scripture calls anybody who follows Christ the children of the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ (Revelations 12:17).

So, we love her as Jesus Himself loved her…as our own mother.

Catholics, if you can add onto what I said or just want to offer your own words and/or corrections, by all means please do.

Non-Catholic Christians, the question is to you…am I wrong to assert that Catholics and Muslims love and revere and hold Mary in higher esteem than you do?

If so, I welcome your explanation & correction because I would love to be wrong about this one. I really would. I would really like to know that you consider Mary (as The Scriptures tell us) the mother of all Christians and that you love her even more than Muslims do.

Of course, we can all define for ourselves what love is and just so that there’s no confusion, I’ve listed what I believe Catholics feel for Mary as a common faith (and can be corrected by Catholics if need be).

Do Catholics and Muslims love Mary more than non-Catholic Christians?

 

[Heblesses]

I made the statement that Catholics and Muslims love Mary more than Protestants do. For this, I was called presumtuous.

I’d like to give Protestants a format to defend themselves against my statement.

Now, I can’t speak for Muslims in detail, but I know that they love and revere Mary. They even have an entire book of the Koran devoted to her. I’ll hope that a Muslim can enlighten us all (and if neccessary, correct me if I’m wrong on what I believe they feel for her) on how their faith sees Mary, the mother of Jesus.

As for Catholics, I can’t speak for every last Catholic, but generally speaking, we love her. We have no issues with veneration of Mary. We see her as our mother (as Jesus is our brother through our common Father Who is God, The Father).

We ask her to pray for us.

We defend her when others belittle her or impune her reputation.

We are jealous for her image to the world and guard it against misrepresentations.

We praise her.

We mention her regularly.

We have always felt this way, since the beginning of Christianity.

Former Catholics who’d go on to be the church fathers of the Protestant Reformation also venerated Mary (Luther, Calvin, Zwigli, etc…).

The non-veneration of Mary was created post Reformation by anti-Catholic Protestants and is a relatively new practice having only been employed during the last 400 years.

But for 2,000 years, Christianity has loved and revered the woman who gave up her only born Son so that man would be saved.

We are grateful to her.

Jesus, Who is The Life, came through her womb, therefore, our eternal Salvation Who is Christ came through her womb…her womb gave us life…just like a mother does to any child born naturally.

Scripture calls anybody who follows Christ the children of the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ (Revelations 12:17).

So, we love her as Jesus Himself loved her…as our own mother.

Catholics, if you can add onto what I said or just want to offer your own words and/or corrections, by all means please do.

Non-Catholic Christians, the question is to you…am I wrong to assert that Catholics and Muslims love and revere and hold Mary in higher esteem than you do?

If so, I welcome your explanation & correction because I would love to be wrong about this one. I really would. I would really like to know that you consider Mary (as The Scriptures tell us) the mother of all Christians and that you love her even more than Muslims do.

Of course, we can all define for ourselves what love is and just so that there’s no confusion, I’ve listed what I believe Catholics feel for Mary as a common faith (and can be corrected by Catholics if need be).

Do Catholics and Muslims love Mary more than non-Catholic Christians?

 

[Heblesses]

**

To 2nd Gen.

I read what you had to say about Mary. I am not Catholic, but I love Mary as most Christians do. However it goes back to what the Bible says about prayer. It seems as though you and the other person were trying to outdo each other. Why? The issue is what the Bible says. We aren’t to PRAY to anyone but God- Jesus died for our sins, He is our mediator to God we can pray to Him directly. We aren’t to pray TO Mary or the Saints or anyone else for that matter.

I am not picking on you but as far as that goes I need to recheck on some things with the Knights Templar but I think it isn’t a good thing. Secret societies or groups like the Masons etc are wrong according to the Bible. Our Presidents etc have been involved in Skull and Bones- this is wrong to.
And if you want to get technical the Catholics did a lot of their own killings in the inquisitions etc. They also burned Christians at the stake such as Huss and I think Tyndale and some others if you want to check into the Church history for the Reformers. Catholics and Christians both have made mistakes in the past, just as we do today. The thing we should be worrying about it is our personal relationship with Christ and what we do for Him on a daily basis and praying to Him for guidance. We need to be praying for our leaders too. If you look at the bible and the news and other things around, it won’t be long before Christ’s return. We need to get the gospel out to as many as we can before then.

Let me ask you, where is Christ in your life? What are you doing FOR Him? If you would like to discuss this more you can reach me at godsgrace33@yahoo.com