Loving One Another?

[marimagi]

I have been on this site for less than 2 weeks. I was really hoping to share thoughts, ideas and insights with other Catholics; as we are in the minority in my community. I thought I wanted to know how other Catholics are thinking and feeling these days, but now I am not so sure.

In this short time, I have witnessed 2 rather nasty arguements over Roman Catholicism versus Orthodoxy. I posted a question on family issues, and after getting a few kind and helpful answers, one person decided to attack another poster for mentioning in the course of her response, that her son had converted to another religion. This person apparently thought she had to let this mother know under no uncertain terms, that her son was basically going to hell. The mom finally posted that she was done with the Catholic Church. She was hurt.

This morning, I came across a thread regarding gay marriage. Everyone was pleased to condemn homosexuals, but when I asked about Jesus dictate to love one another, there was only more of the same.

So, my question is, do we care about what Jesus made clearest to us in the Gospels? It seems that as Christians, we like to hunt scripture for evidence that the Other is sinning, but don’t want to spend much time on ourselves. Who among us is working on forgiving our enemies; the man who raped us, the husband/wife who left, the swindler, the thief…?
Who is working on the challenge to love one another; the person of another faith, different race, different social class, diffierent nationality, different citizenship status, different sexual orientation?

The last poster I read on the Gay Marriage thread, said that Lucifer’s greatest tool is sex. I say that his greatest tool is hate, intolerance, judgement…

What do YOU think? Is the scripture something we use like a stone to throw at others? Or is scripture a challenge to change the hardest things in our own human nature; our arrogance and self-righteousness? I know that as for myself, I have enough motes to pull out of my own eye, to keep me busy for a lifetime.

 

[Justicia_et_Pax]

I have been on this site for less than 2 weeks. I was really hoping to share thoughts, ideas and insights with other Catholics; as we are in the minority in my community. I thought I wanted to know how other Catholics are thinking and feeling these days, but now I am not so sure.

In this short time, I have witnessed 2 rather nasty arguements over Roman Catholicism versus Orthodoxy. I posted a question on family issues, and after getting a few kind and helpful answers, one person decided to attack another poster for mentioning in the course of her response, that her son had converted to another religion. This person apparently thought she had to let this mother know under no uncertain terms, that her son was basically going to hell. The mom finally posted that she was done with the Catholic Church. She was hurt.

This morning, I came across a thread regarding gay marriage. Everyone was pleased to condemn homosexuals, but when I asked about Jesus dictate to love one another, there was only more of the same.

So, my question is, do we care about what Jesus made clearest to us in the Gospels? It seems that as Christians, we like to hunt scripture for evidence that the Other is sinning, but don’t want to spend much time on ourselves. Who among us is working on forgiving our enemies; the man who raped us, the husband/wife who left, the swindler, the thief…?
Who is working on the challenge to love one another; the person of another faith, different race, different social class, diffierent nationality, different citizenship status, different sexual orientation?

The last poster I read on the Gay Marriage thread, said that Lucifer’s greatest tool is sex. I say that his greatest tool is hate, intolerance, judgement…

What do YOU think? Is the scripture something we use like a stone to throw at others? Or is scripture a challenge to change the hardest things in our own human nature; our arrogance and self-righteousness? I know that as for myself, I have enough motes to pull out of my own eye, to keep me busy for a lifetime.

Great post. The “Catholicism” I see on this forum is not anything that’s recognisable to me. I don’t know whether that’s coz I’m from the UK or whether it’s something else. I stay hovering because I like to learn but honestly, some of the people on here aren’t very Christian at all

 

[marimagi]

Great post. The “Catholicism” I see on this forum is not anything that’s recognisable to me. I don’t know whether that’s coz I’m from the UK or whether it’s something else. I stay hovering because I like to learn but honestly, some of the people on here aren’t very Christian at all

Bless you and praise be to God!

 

[marimagi]

Great post. The “Catholicism” I see on this forum is not anything that’s recognisable to me. I don’t know whether that’s coz I’m from the UK or whether it’s something else. I stay hovering because I like to learn but honestly, some of the people on here aren’t very Christian at all

And, you may be right about the UK part. I am feeling that America is a very hateful place right now. And yes, I’m American

 

[fhansen]

And, you may be right about the UK part. I am feeling that America is a very hateful place right now. And yes, I’m American

Self-righteousness is alive and well on planet earth-an aspect or consequence of Original Sin-but I often suspect it might have more of a stronghold in America, perhaps as a result of our religious background. Anyway, the light that God’s given to the world has it’s effect and yet it apparently takes time to penetrate deeply and cause real change, even for us as believers. It seems very easy to give into the pride, and it’s brother fear, that causes us to isolate and reject others.

 

[marimagi]

Self-righteousness is alive and well on planet earth-an aspect or consequence of Original Sin-but I often suspect it might have more of a stronghold in America, perhaps as a result of our religious background. Anyway, the light that God’s given to the world has it’s effect and yet it apparently takes time to penetrate deeply and cause real change, even for us as believers. It seems very easy to give into the pride, and it’s brother fear, that causes us to isolate and reject others.

Why isn’t there a “like” button here like on Facebook?

 

[Mary_Ellen]

There is, it’s the Thumbs Up button - it looks like this

 

[marimagi]

There is, it’s the Thumbs Up button - it looks like this

 

[Orogeny]

So, my question is, do we care about what Jesus made clearest to us in the Gospels? It seems that as Christians, we like to hunt scripture for evidence that the Other is sinning, but don’t want to spend much time on ourselves. Who among us is working on forgiving our enemies; the man who raped us, the husband/wife who left, the swindler, the thief…?
Who is working on the challenge to love one another; the person of another faith, different race, different social class, diffierent nationality, different citizenship status, different sexual orientation?

I’m sorry that is what you have encountered, but this is a public forum and people do have different beliefs. What may come across as hateful, condemning, intolerant, etc… may, in fact, been intended with love and charity. Written words, especially in a forum, are not the best way to convey true meaning because there is no (or very, very little) nuance possible.

But to answer your question, I am working on forgiving those who have hurt me.

The last poster I read on the Gay Marriage thread, said that Lucifer’s greatest tool is sex. I say that his greatest tool is hate, intolerance, judgement…

I disagree. What is hate? Can you hate the sin but still love the sinner? Can you be intolerant with people who advocate sin? Can you judge someone’s actions in light of the Gospel? My personal opinion is that when I read someone accusing others on a forum of being a hater or being intolerant or being judgmental, I read that the conversation is over. Those are shut-down statements to me.

What do YOU think? Is the scripture something we use like a stone to throw at others? Or is scripture a challenge to change the hardest things in our own human nature; our arrogance and self-righteousness? I know that as for myself, I have enough motes to pull out of my own eye, to keep me busy for a lifetime.

I struggle to live my life in accordance with scripture, but, thank God, I have so far been able to persevere with the struggle. Maybe one of these days I’ll succeed!

Peace

Tim

 

[marimagi]

Tim,

I don’t see many people hating the sin, but loving the sinner, I just don’t. Usually, the people I see who say they do this, would snuff out the sinner along with his sin. Christ was able to do this, but humans don’t seem to navigate this one very well.

Peace.

 

[Orogeny]

Tim,

I don’t see many people hating the sin, but loving the sinner, I just don’t. Usually, the people I see who say they do this, would snuff out the sinner along with his sin. Christ was able to do this, but humans don’t seem to navigate this one very well.

Peace.

Can you give me a link to the thread that called for snuffing out the sinner? I won’t say it is impossible, but that is not something that I have seen in the many years I have been on this forum.

Peace

Tim

 

[marimagi]

Can you give me a link to the thread that called for snuffing out the sinner? I won’t say it is impossible, but that is not something that I have seen in the many years I have been on this forum.

Peace

Tim

 

[marimagi]

Can you give me a link to the thread that called for snuffing out the sinner? I won’t say it is impossible, but that is not something that I have seen in the many years I have been on this forum.

Peace

Tim

I am watching a show on Independent Lens about the traditional Navajo culture’s beliefs regarding what they once called, “Two Spirit” people. They believed that God created 4 sexes; males, females, and for lack of a more accurate term in English, Gays and Lesbians.

Apparently, there was no prejudice in regards to these 4 types, and in some cases the Two Spirit people were revered, as they had more perspective than males or females in the heterosexual sense (and I’m not doing the explanation justice at all.)

The documentary is mostly about the negative impact of the Judeo-Christian impact on the Navajo homosexual peoples. For example, when the Conquistadores encountered the Navajo culture, they dealt with homosexuals by throwing them into a pit with dogs who tore them limb from limb. I guess that is the sort of thing I think about when I think of hating the sin and lovng the sinner.

Throughout history, Christians have done a lot of evil in the name of hating the sin, but loving the sinner. Remember burning heretics at the stake? History is full of such examples where it was better for people to die than to continue in what one group or another defined as a sin. We get into very dangerous territory when we think we are doing good by denying others of life, or a life that mature, consenting persons who do not hurt, force or abuse others, to live.

I know that over the years, I have seen a lot of people in person and on television, who are protesting what they believe to be the sins of another group, while hurling insults, screaming, etc. I don’t believe that these people are loving the sinner, because their faces are gnarled in expressions of hate.

I guess I can think of a few who can speak against sin while lovng the sinner…Ghandi, some of our popes (JPII and Pope Francis come readily to mind.) But I don’t think it is good practice for the spiritual novice to fool themself into thinking they’re good at it. This is HARD, HARD stuff.

 

[Orogeny]

Interesting information about the documentary.

You claimed that there was someone on a thread here at CA that called for snuffing out sinners. Did you find that thread?

Peace

Tim

 

[marimagi]

Interesting information about the documentary.

You claimed that there was someone on a thread here at CA that called for snuffing out sinners. Did you find that thread?

Peace

Tim

I didn’t mean for that to be taken literally. I meant metaphoically.

 

[Fairwinds]

I didn’t mean for that to be taken literally. I meant metaphoically.

plenty of threads are like that, explaining how the death penalty is acceptable under certain rare instances per the CCC. no one says “snuff out” but we are talking about execution.

remember, this forum is not representative of Catholics worldwide. it might be representative of Catholics on the internetz, but not the majority of us.

 

[Orogeny]

I didn’t mean for that to be taken literally. I meant metaphoically.

Well, that is a very strong accusation, one that you should be careful about making.

I found the thread you referenced regarding same-sex “marriage” in the OP. I’m sorry, but I have to say that you are not accurate in your description of what was written there. Maybe were using a metaphor as well, but no one was condemning homosexuals. All I saw was a rejection of homosexual activities and same-sex “marriage”. I saw nothing that was not in line with Church teaching about homosexuality.

Should we love homosexuals? Yes, of course. They are children of God just as heterosexuals are. Should we accept homosexual activity because someone is born homosexual? No, we should not, because they are children of God and are called to live according to His rules. How do we know His rules? Through His bride, the Church. Jesus’ dictate that we love one another doesn’t mean that we turn our back on harmful, sinful activities.

That is not being hateful, intolerant or judgmental. That is being Christian.

Peace

Tim

 

[ellzeena]

And, you may be right about the UK part. I am feeling that America is a very hateful place right now. And yes, I’m American

The world is a “hateful place”. In the past eight months, I’ve been to Europe twice (France, then Portugal, Amsterdam also - brief stopover, talk about hostility! wow) It’s fear that produces anger, and suffering (emotional, psychological, physical, etc. you name it). But we are not “of the world”, we are “in it”.

I’ve been on this forum since the death of my daughter two years ago. While I don’t always agree with what is said, and I do actively avoid flamers (ad hominem attack) by just clicking “off” that post or thread, I must say that I have “met” some of the most amazing people I have ever known in the RC faith, right here, in this place.

You may not agree with everyone because that’s the nature of our humanity. You may have a “bone to pick” and choose to turn the other cheek while another might not so you choose to withdraw and pray for that person, or offer loving contradiction to their behavior. You will find Christ haters here under the guise of “innocent questioners” but you will find those who love the Lord with all their hearts and that’s worth the price of admission. And what is the “price of admission”…occasionally feeling uncomfortable (in which case you know from whence that truly comes). If this place were in any way damaging, I would have been gone a long time ago. One thing I have learned well is that I have to protect myself, I’m fragile emotionally right now (and may be so forever) and can’t linger where the negative and destructive is stirred into the pot too many times. Stick around. You’ll sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[marimagi]

Many of my Christian, homosexual friends would disagree. Also, when we say that according to what MY religion teaches, YOU cannot live according to who you are (as a person who is not objectively harming anyone else) it IS intolerant, it IS based on my own judgements, and in many cases, hateful. Hatefulness is often subtle upon initial examination. But making assertions about homosexuals such as that their unions harm children, that they spread disease…these things are untrue and inflamatory. Think of the things that were said of Jews by Christians at one time; “Jews use baby’s blood in their ceremonies,” Jews are vermon." Some untrue statements do spread hate

We may be Catholics, but we also live in a country that protects the beliefs of others and their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Lest we wish too hard that it were otherwise, we should remember that we are allowed to be Catholics. We are not forced to be LDS, Jewish, Muslim, or Baptist just because one of these groups may believe we are in error for our beliefs and practices, or because they might believe that they would be doing us a favor or saving our souls, by forcing us to be otherwise.

 

[marimagi]

Ellzeena,

I am truly sorry for your loss. I have 3 daughters. A few years ago, I almost lost one. She is mostly out of the woods now, but…

I can’t imagine anything harder than losing a child. Please accept a hug and a prayer.