Loving the EF but

[utunumsint]

Can anyone give me advice on the following?

I truly love the EF of the mass. I have been going to an FSSP church since I married my wife. However, there seems to be a large subset of the parishoners who, in addition to loving the EF, also hate the NO, and they preach this hatred as though it were an essential part of the community and true Catholicism.

Now, I understand where they are coming from, and to be honest, I don’t particulary blame them for their feelings, but I simply do not share their experience, or their convictions about the NO, or vatican II. I also want to emphasise that they are not all like this, and the priest heading up the church is certainly not like this.

Unfortunatly, however, it came to a head, and my wife and I decided to leave the community to protect our children from being exposed to this kind of hatred, and ourselves as well.

Does anyone else here have a similar experience, and did you deal with it differently?

God bless,
Ut

 

[dang71]

on my journey through our Holy Church, i was really excited one day to learn of the EF (or TLM as i knew it then). i started attending, and was put off by the latin a little, but i initially saw the people there as being very devout, so i thought i would stick it out on the language. unfortunately, in interacting with the EF parishoners, and interacting with traditionalists here on CAF, i have been completely turned off the EF because of the exact same hatred you mention. i truly respect trads for their devotion to the faith, but they totally drove me away by their anger towards anything not EF.

i am sure there is reason for some to be hurt and upset, and i fully agree with trads that abuses should be corrected, but the hatred and anger is just too much for me.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Don’t lump all trads in the same basket. I personally like the EF better than the OF and do not hate it. I have actually seen an OF done reverently at my parish for Maundy Thursday.
The people that hate the OF that the original poster speaks of, maybe SSPX people who have come back into the fold. I have met a few SSPX and been to a chapel of theirs and the impression I get from them is that they act like “catholic puritans”. What I mean by that is they can be fanatical.

on my journey through our Holy Church, i was really excited one day to learn of the EF (or TLM as i knew it then). i started attending, and was put off by the latin a little, but i initially saw the people there as being very devout, so i thought i would stick it out on the language. unfortunately, in interacting with the EF parishoners, and interacting with traditionalists here on CAF, i have been completely turned off the EF because of the exact same hatred you mention. i truly respect trads for their devotion to the faith, but they totally drove me away by their anger towards anything not EF.

i am sure there is reason for some to be hurt and upset, and i fully agree with trads that abuses should be corrected, but the hatred and anger is just too much for me.

 

[Robster7]

I occasionally go to an EF high mass where the congregation does the responses out lound, and love it. Primarily I go to NO, which I am more used to. I like both, believe both are legit. (essentially the same, if you campare basic mass format for each).
I like to participate and sing too. Once again, only prob with NO is abuse or goofiness.
Prob with EF low mass, is quick mumble of latin, no congreg. participation, and seeming attitude, the quicker the better (not always the case, but impression one can get).

Where there is an option for both/and, I get annoyed with attitudes that insist on either/or.

 

[tcraig]

Yes, those types of people are definitely present at TLM parishes. Depending on the parish, they can either be a minority or a majority; if they’re the majority they can make parish life quite uncomfortable for those who don’t ascribe to their particular view of what makes a “traditional Catholic”.

How do you deal with it? Probably the same way you deal with those extremely liberal Catholics who want to ordain women, allow artificial birth control, etc. - you continue to be polite and charitable while keeping your distance. I’m not sure what brought things “to a head” in your particular case, but sometimes it’s easiest just to avoid the most obnoxious people altogether.

One thing that might help is mentioning your concern to your priest. There was an incident at a former TLM parish of mine where a group of parishioners were causing a lot of strife. Someone mentioned it to our pastor, and he basically nipped the problem in the bud with a pointed announcement before the homily.

 

[AlanF]

I don’t think you can blame them really, the traditional Latin Rite Mass was replaced with what the then Cardinal Ratzinger called a “banal, on-the-spot production”. I’ve never been able to attent a TLM but I can see their frustrations with a traditional and sacred rite being replaced with a novelty, and I share them mostly, having seen every week the lack of reverence and sacredness of the Novus Ordo.

I can’t really see the problem myself, if you only take your children to TLMs they’ll most likely be horrified when they eventually see a Novus Ordo anyway.

God Bless.

 

[Extempore]

The people that hate the OF that the original poster speaks of, maybe SSPX people who have come back into the fold.

Yeah, I mean, after all, if there are hateful people they MUST go to the SSPX chapels, right??

This kind of polarization is sad. Hateful people are everywhere, and if you’re going to base the quality of your Mass off of the people that attend it then you might wish to re-consider your priorities.

PS: People that go to the SSPX aren’t “outside of the fold.” Just FYI.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Can anyone give me advice on the following?

I truly love the EF of the mass. I have been going to an FSSP church since I married my wife. However, there seems to be a large subset of the parishoners who, in addition to loving the EF, also hate the NO, and they preach this hatred as though it were an essential part of the community and true Catholicism.

Now, I understand where they are coming from, and to be honest, I don’t particulary blame them for their feelings, but I simply do not share their experience, or their convictions about the NO, or vatican II. I also want to emphasise that they are not all like this, and the priest heading up the church is certainly not like this.

Unfortunatly, however, it came to a head, and my wife and I decided to leave the community to protect our children from being exposed to this kind of hatred, and ourselves as well.

Does anyone else here have a similar experience, and did you deal with it differently?

God bless,
Ut

I haven’t experienced what you speak of and maybe it does exist in my church, I just haven’t noticed it.

I love the NO and the TLM because they are part of the church I love. But, that doesn’t mean I don’t prefer one over the other. Maybe some are disenchanted with the NO because of how it is celebrated.

 

[utunumsint]

Yes, those types of people are definitely present at TLM parishes. Depending on the parish, they can either be a minority or a majority; if they’re the majority they can make parish life quite uncomfortable for those who don’t ascribe to their particular view of what makes a “traditional Catholic”.

How do you deal with it? Probably the same way you deal with those extremely liberal Catholics who want to ordain women, allow artificial birth control, etc. - you continue to be polite and charitable while keeping your distance. I’m not sure what brought things “to a head” in your particular case, but sometimes it’s easiest just to avoid the most obnoxious people altogether.

One thing that might help is mentioning your concern to your priest. There was an incident at a former TLM parish of mine where a group of parishioners were causing a lot of strife. Someone mentioned it to our pastor, and he basically nipped the problem in the bud with a pointed announcement before the homily.

I got caught in the crossfire. They are not hateful people, they just hate the NO, and believe the current magisterium has gone completely off the rails.

I feel like I’ve abandoned the more moderate side, but frankely, it was too much.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, all.

God bless,
Ut

 

[DavidPalm]

I got caught in the crossfire. They are not hateful people, they just hate the NO, and believe the current magisterium has gone completely off the rails.

Well, I’m very sorry for your experience. We have had similar dynamics at our own apostolate and, indeed, I have a big mouth and have certainly said things that have hurt others.

I guess that I would encourage you to understand that people are angry for what I consider to be good reasons. For some of us, the shock of it when we started to realize just the size and scope of what had happened in the revolution after Vatican II generated a lot of anger.

But…at some point we must let go of that anger, because it’s most certainly a sign of pride and a lack of trust in God. The saints could be angry, sure, but only for a season. The agitation of spirit that comes with continual anger is totally incompatible with a traditional Catholic spirituality (preaching to myself.)

Usually a lot of the anger dissipates once traditionalists are let out of the refugee camp and into a permanent home where they are full citizens of the Church’s life again. After my own experience, I resonate more with the pent-up rage of those poor souls banished to Palestinian refugee camps. How long has your apostolate been around? Perhaps the people are still trying to get over the exile.

I really agree with the previous poster who recommended speaking to the pastor about it. And I do encourage you not to give up on the TLM because of this. I think that it will bring great blessings to you and your family.

 

[RUINATION_IPA]

I think you should reconsider your decision on a variety of different reasons but first let me just say that if you find the conversation after Mass not to be to your liking then don’t stick around for the doughnuts

I took my family out of the NO for a lot of different reasons. I grew up with the NO and sat there and looked the other way all my life. When I had children of my own my wife and I did the same; we looked the other way while abuse abounded and was normalized through it’s incessant practice. I would tell my children after Mass, “Honey, I know you want to hold hands like everyone else during the Our Father but we really shouldn’t be doing that because the Pope says we shouldnt.” or, “I know you want to be an altar girl but it’s not really proper for a girl to serve at the altar”, or “We go to the far away line for communion, to the Priest, because those other people are not suppose to be giving out communion unless it’s absolutely necessary.” etc. ad naseum. I realized that despite presenting the faith in positive and meaningful ways at home and in every day life when it came to Church it seemed that they were being reinforced in negativity. We would emphasize the good and the wonder of the Mass but it wasn’t being presented that way by the actions inherent in the liturgy and the constant abuses going on around us. I didn’t want my little girls growing up with the impression that if the Church could be wrong in these things going on during mass then what else could it be wrong about? When I say “Church” I’m speaking of a child’s understanding of it and the local Church - not Church’s that are faithful to Rome and do things according to the rubrics.

I drew the line when a new Priest (French, mind you) starting preaching in favor of questioning papal authority, women priests, and a dual covenant - among the other usual liberal nonsense. We tried other NO parishes but it’s all the same because most of the abuses have been engrained into the very NO being. Shortly after this we were at the neighboring parish where the Priest was supposedly known as devout and orthodox but he decided to go off on the dual covenant thing as well. My family got up in the middle of the sermon and left. So the short of it is that I grew up post Vatican II, suffered through irreverence to the point that I lost my Catholic Faith and only through a miracle of God’s grace was I ever restored. Now, I do not in a million years want my children to suffer through the same nonsense that I have, nor do I want them to think that God is only worthy of the reverence found in the mainstream NO because God is worthy of so much more respect. It’s not about me; it’s about God and in the TLM as presented by the FSSP and other fraternities all of these abuses go POOF! And what we teach the kids at home about Christ, the Mass, the faith - is seen and embodied in the TLM and we don’t have to worry about FSSP Priests giving sermons about their dogs or liturgical dancing.

Please reconsider for the sake of your children. And come to think of it: after years of after Mass conversation at the NO over coffee and doughnuts I can’t recall anyone ever talking about the faith- it was mostly secular talk. At least at the TLM where you were at people were willing to discuss something of faith even if it was something you were not accustomed to hearing.

 

[PKinsale]

One often hears about how some folks at the EF hate the OF. There certainly are cases of that and we should pray for these people. My experience is that there are a lot more Catholics at the OF who hate the EF.

 

[DavidPalm]

One often hears about how some folks at the EF hate the OF. There certainly are cases of that and we should pray for these people. My experience is that there are a lot more Catholics at the OF who hate the EF.

Amen. And that just doesn’t seem to trouble anybody. Let’s get this into perspective a little bit. Yeah, you go to some TLM apostolates and there are some crabby people there who have been badly burned by the revolution–one of our former members (may he RIP) sacrificed to send all his kids to Catholic schools and every single one of them lost the Faith. Was he still somewhat bitter about that? Yeah, he was, and hurt and angry. Okay, so you have some folks who go too far in harboring a latent anger, albeit for real injustices and sacrileges. You’re absolutely right, they should not be expressing that so forcefully that it scandalizes others (been there, done that, mea culpa.)

But here we get a lot of slings and arrows from our orthodox Catholic brethren who are critical of our apostolate and I have taken to turning this around. Yeah, we’ve got some crabby folks, I’ll give you that. But they all hold the true Faith and they strive to follow the Commandments. And what do you have? 90% of the parishioners (I’m being kind) at the local parish are contracepting and don’t think a thing of it. There are the ordinary (who’s fooling whom?) Eucharistic ministers who openly deny Church teaching on a whole host of issues. The heterodox deacon. The “parish councils” that badger and bully the priest into submission. The “Catholic” school with the non-Christian teaching religion classes ().

But the “disobedient rad trads” are the real worry? Perhaps not.

 

[John_Higgins]

PKinsale:

My experience is that there are a lot more Catholics at the OF who hate the EF.

I don’t want to dispute your experience, but mine is most of us Novus Ordonians either have no knowledge or no interest in the EF. I am a member of one of the largest parishes in Chicago and we’re drawn to our parish BECAUSE of the way the liturgy is celebrated. If someone somehow comes up wondering about the EF, we (the ones who know) send them over to our nearby EF parish.

John

PS: I was married in St. Louis on campus at SLU. What a church!

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

And what we teach the kids at home about Christ, the Mass, the faith - is seen and embodied in the TLM and we don’t have to worry about FSSP Priests giving sermons about their dogs or liturgical dancing…

I hear ya there…or giving us a "review’ of the movie Benjamin Button…ye gads!!

 

[Ghoti]

It seems to me there is some polarization going on.

The OF types who are anti-EF – as in actively oppose, as opposed to merely preferring the OF or having no knowledge of the EF – to me, just from observing on these forums:

• want to keep the vernacular, are afraid of a Mass they cannot understand; probably wouldn’t mind the EF in vernacular (“TLM” means “Talk Like Me!”). Linguistic nationalists I think are like this too
• Progressives and liberals who fear that a reintroduction of the EF will erode their control over parishes, etc: I think there are “lay ministers” who do not want to give up their “offices”
• Vatican-II babies who know nothing other than the OF, and are afraid of experiencing the same thing the pre-Vat-II crowd did – being outsiders in their own church

On the other hand, there are those who attend the EF who have nothing but contempt for the OF. I agree that the abuses should be pointed out and corrected; and I will admit that the OF seems more open to abuse than the EF because of the latitude in the rubrics (as well as the notorious “Spirit of VII”). However, there are some among the EF attendees who claim everything from the OF being objectively inferior and incapable of being reverently said, to it being actually invalid, and that those who prefer it aren’t really Catholic.

I think what is happening is that the extremists (e.g. womynpriest-supporters and con-Siri-cy theorists) are polarizing the middle.

I myself fall into the third category – altho’ I do not oppose the EF, I do have fears that I would feel the same as if I were suddenly teleported into an Eastern parish.

I have been to two EFs – a Low and a High Mass. I shall be honest – I was not bowled over, yet. I have also been to a Latin Novus Ordo, complete with chants, polyphony, incense, ad orientem, etc – and the experience to me was indescribable. It makes me think that I would love a dialogue High Mass – best of both worlds.

But again, I do not oppose the EF. Should Holy Father say tomorrow that the OF was abrogated and we’ll go back to they way it was done before Vatican II – I would not like it, but I would submit.

 

[dang71]

It seems to me there is some polarization going on.

The OF types who are anti-EF – as in actively oppose, as opposed to merely preferring the OF or having no knowledge of the EF – to me, just from observing on these forums:

• want to keep the vernacular, are afraid of a Mass they cannot understand; probably wouldn’t mind the EF in vernacular (“TLM” means “Talk Like Me!”). Linguistic nationalists I think are like this too
• Progressives and liberals who fear that a reintroduction of the EF will erode their control over parishes, etc: I think there are “lay ministers” who do not want to give up their “offices”
• Vatican-II babies who know nothing other than the OF, and are afraid of experiencing the same thing the pre-Vat-II crowd did – being outsiders in their own church

On the other hand, there are those who attend the EF who have nothing but contempt for the OF. I agree that the abuses should be pointed out and corrected; and I will admit that the OF seems more open to abuse than the EF because of the latitude in the rubrics (as well as the notorious “Spirit of VII”). However, there are some among the EF attendees who claim everything from the OF being objectively inferior and incapable of being reverently said, to it being actually invalid, and that those who prefer it aren’t really Catholic.

I think what is happening is that the extremists (e.g. womynpriest-supporters and con-Siri-cy theorists) are polarizing the middle.

I myself fall into the third category – altho’ I do not oppose the EF, I do have fears that I would feel the same as if I were suddenly teleported into an Eastern parish.

.

VERY well said.

if the Mass could be the EF in the vernacular, with the priest audible throughout the entire Mass, and the congregation having specific responses, i would be happy as a lark.

 

[RUINATION_IPA]

I myself fall into the third category – altho’ I do not oppose the EF, I do have fears that I would feel the same as if I were suddenly teleported into an Eastern parish.

I have been to two EFs – a Low and a High Mass. I shall be honest – I was not bowled over, yet. I have also been to a Latin Novus Ordo, complete with chants, polyphony, incense, ad orientem, etc – and the experience to me was indescribable. It makes me think that I would love a dialogue High Mass – best of both worlds.

But again, I do not oppose the EF. Should Holy Father say tomorrow that the OF was abrogated and we’ll go back to they way it was done before Vatican II – I would not like it, but I would submit.

Ghoti, don’t take this the wrong way - I’m a V2 baby as well - however I notice a fundamental error in all the above underlined and bolded quotes which is prevalent among many at the NO - It’s all about ME - what I experience at Mass. A lot of people who attend the NO will float from parish to parish because “I don’t get anything out of it.” We have to realize it has next to nothing to do with us. We go to worship God the way he wants us to. The Priest alone offers the eternal sacrifice and we have nothing to do with it. Our sacrifice is different; one of praise and thanksgiving where we offer God the merits of our good works and sufferings. Instead of thinking, “I wasn’t impressed” we should be thinking “was God glorified?”

Again, please don’t take this the wrong way - we’re both V2 babies and there’s a bit of unprogramming that needs to be done but I felt that it was necessary for this to pointed out.

 

[RUINATION_IPA]

VERY well said.

if the Mass could be the EF in the vernacular, with the priest audible throughout the entire Mass, and the congregation having specific responses, i would be happy as a lark.

Dang71, people got a little comfy with all vernacular didn’t they? But, as I’m sure you already know, Vatican II required that the latin be retained and only SOME vernacular could be used IF local ordinaries required it - so in essence V2 required latin and did not mandate ANY vernacular.

In the EF the Priest is inaudible because it’s indicative to all that what is taking place is performed by him alone. His dialouge is directly with God on our behalf. Being new to the EF I thought this was a bit odd but once I found out WHY I thought of how beautiful the symbolism is and how it reflects the true nature of the Priesthood.

It’s kind of scary but 2 out of the 3 things you listed, if you were to believe they are necessary, were anathametized at the Council of Trent.

 

[utunumsint]

Once again, my point has been confirmed. For many, the expectation is that you will join them in their condemnation of the NO. When you do not, they want to argue with you, point out all the problems they have with it. They criticize the popes, the local bishops, sometimes vatican II when they feel like it. 1962 reigns above all, and everything after that is anathemized.

The issue is, none of these things were done in a closet. The NO mass had the approval of all the popes, including the current pope. The NO is called the OF by pope Benedict. That hasn’t changed. So to state otherwise is to reject the authority of our current pope and out current magisterium.

I am not comfortable with this kind of attitude. I do not want my kids to be infected by it either.

The sad part is that if this attitude was not there, I would probably be going to the EF mass exclusively.

God bless,
Ut