Loving?

[Oneiron]

I’m sure many of you are going to find this rather offensive, but frankly I don’t care anymore. My short tenure on this forum has shown me that a good majority of Catholics and other Christians are more bigoted than the rest of the world. They attempt to learn of Mohammed and Islam, yet seek out only that which proves their view of it being a waqr promoting religion. They do not care for researching the historical aspect of those wars, even if their action would then make them seem less hateful toward the rest of the world.

Yet when you compare Islam to Christianity everyone gets defensive. So who really cares if the Israelites commited genocide on the Canaanites, your god sanctioned it and they were bad people who deserved to be killed. I have read defenses of the Crusades as purely defensive wars rooted in Christian goodness. Not a person has said anything back about the inquisition yet, when thousands upon thousands of people were tortured and killed for not believing as you do.

I’ve read hateful lashes at aetheists as well, and have been told that my belief in god not being vindicated when I was 10 years old and alone was due to me. It can’t be god ignoring me, or that he’s sleeping or dead or may not exist at all, but I did something wrong and turned my back on god. After all, he’s perfect, so everything has to be my fault.

I’ve continually seen Islamophobia whenever the religion is brought up, even to the point that someone said you should be willing to die when you witness to a Muslim, because they’re more likely to kill you over religion. And then this fear is encouraged among yourselves.

I’ve even seen it been said that anti-semitism is pagan.

Didn’t Jesus teach that you are supposed to love everyone as yourself, to always turn the other cheeck and love your enemy? Didn’t he preach naught but love and respect wherever he went, to care for those who were in need? But it seems that the only part of Jesus’s life that is quoted is that he died for you.
I apologize to those I offend, but I’m having a hard time coming to grasps with how a religion whose primary tenet is love can be so hateful and bigoted in the face of diversity.

 

[scylla]

Many times pointing out errors can be misinterpreted as being judgemental.

Is it wrong to point out the illogic in a belief system?
I might be rude if done without tact but it is not wrong.

As an example, if I see someone who is dedicating their lifes to a belief system which is illogical and I point out the illogic in this system I am being charitable in correcting them.
Lets say you believe you can save your child’s life by putting a magic stone on his belly.
I tell you that it could be appendicitis and he needs to see a doctor, am I being not loving?

Lets look at Islam which has no central authority which means that truth is not agreed upon in this belief system. So it is illogical to believe in a system that does not value truth. So am I not being loving by pointing out the illogic in this?

Who cares if Islam has resulted in extremists actions that kill and persecute people around the world. Actions of people do not determine whether a religion is correct or not.
I agree we should investigate the core of belief, and the core of Islam is illogical and inconsistant, so it can be disregarded as a valid belief system.
Much the same with Christian belief systems that have come up in the last few centuries, as they are inconsistant and illogical they can be disregarded as valid.

Should we respect opinion when that opinion is contrary to others. Does that mean that truth matters? If truth matters some opinions are actually based upon lies, so is it right to respect opinions based upon lies?
We should respect people, opinions can certainly be disrespected, but tactfully as people us insult\emotions to get out of accepting truth.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Della]

No one who makes a false blanket statement such as:

Not a person has said anything back about the inquisition yet, when thousands upon thousands of people were tortured and killed for not believing as you do.

has the right to chide others for telling lies and being bigoted. :whacky:

As to your personal relationship with God, that’s your business, not ours. God will save whom he pleases–maybe even me, poor sinner that I am. Maybe you too, maybe Osama ben Laden, maybe many we may think unworthy. But then, none of us is worthy. We’re all in this thing together.

 

[Oneiron]

No one who makes a false blanket statement such as:

has the right to chide others for telling lies and being bigoted. :whacky:

wait wait, I mentioned the inquisition here before and nobody answered it. All I did right there was provide information on what the inquisition was painting it, not the religion, in a negative light. Please explain how I was being bigoted?

Whether or not it has been previously discussed I don’t know. And how was that statement false?

 

[jrabs]

wait wait, I mentioned the inquisition here before and nobody answered it. All I did right there was provide information on what the inquisition was painting it, not the religion, in a negative light.

As this is a forum where people generally respond to inquiries that interest them, is it possible few are interested in such a topic? No need to take offense.

 

[Della]

wait wait, I mentioned the inquisition here before and nobody answered it. All I did right there was provide information on what the inquisition was painting it, not the religion, in a negative light. Please explain how I was being bigoted?

Whether or not it has been previously discussed I don’t know. And how was that statement false?

Please read my comments in a calm, matter-of-fact tone–I have no desire to “get you” or try to make a fool of you.

If you mentioned the Inquisitions along with many other topics, and as you did here, it may have been ignored as being just another accusation thrown out there as if it were to be taken for granted. You see, people often assume that merely mentioning the Inquisitions will make Catholics run or blush, but they do neither, believe me.

The Inquisitions, there were more than one, can only paint the religion in a bad light if the information about them that is so often written were true. If you believe the falsities about the Inquisitions without questioning them, and spread them to others or hold them up as “proof” of the Church’s sins, then that would make you bigoted. If you didn’t intend to do that, then you were not being bigoted, so I apologize for saying you were.

The inquisitions have been discussed at length on these forums. Do a simple search to find the threads and read them. Or read the online Catholic Encyclopedia about the Inquisitions, which will tell you more than you probably wanted to know, and not all of it in favor of the actions of the leaders of the Church.

 

[Oneiron]

The inquisitions were bad, I know the catholic church believes that as well. Sorry if I seemed angry, I’ve had a rather bad day so far, the smallest things are gating on my nerves, didn’t mean to specifically lash out at that

But yes, it may have been overlooked, and no I don’t hold it against the church unless someone brings up violence in another religions history. I have nothing against the teachings of the Christ, Jesus was an extraordinarily intelligent man whose teaching are prevalent in religions around the world, not just Christianity. Both Judaism and islam consider him a great man, and in the east he is known as Saint Issa to the Hindus and Buddhists, teaching the same message of love everywhere.
The thing I was taking issue with was the people who are quick to persecute someone just based on belief his own religion is absolute truthj without stoppping to examine the other side of the story. They decry islam as a horribly violent religion (which, while it does endorse violence, it can also be translatedto endorse love instead) yet they refuse to acknowledge, sometimes even glorify the same kinds of events in their own religion.
It’s this prejudiced, intolerant view that I’m taking issue with, not trying to attack the church at all

 

[Eireann]

I’ve read thread after about the inquisition, and many topics have been discussed to death.

So I could hardly take my chin out of the palm of my hands with boredom when it appeared again, and frankly many are fed up answering.

Probably some of it was lost in the forum crash, it’s a bit like the one sided story about the Nazi Pope, now we have a Jew writing the other side of the story.

Who people believe is up to them, as a friend of mine keeps repeating to me, “paper doesn’t refuse ink .”

The Church’s Magisterium certainly cannot perform an ethical act, such as asking for forgiveness, without first being accurately informed about the situation at the time. Nor can it be based on the images of the past spread by public opinion, since they are often charged with an intense emotionalism that prevents calm, objective analysis. Source

As for Islam, what Saint Paul says in Galatians is all I need to know, about those that come after with a different message.

It’s hard to swallow any religion that would tell you** "if you say were not peaceful, we’ll cut you from ear to ear "** now show me the logic in that ? definitely not something I want to follow.

Yes we all get defensive, especially when someone wants to attack us, it’s human nature, in the end our faith is all we will have left.

 

[Oneiron]

I’ve read thread after about the inquisition, and many topics have been discussed to death.

So I could hardly take my chin out of the palm of my hands with boredom when it appeared again, and frankly many are fed up answering.

Probably some of it was lost in the forum crash, it’s a bit like the one sided story about the Nazi Pope, now we have a Jew writing the other side of the story.

Who people believe is up to them, as a friend of mine keeps repeating to me, “paper doesn’t refuse ink .”

The Church’s Magisterium certainly cannot perform an ethical act, such as asking for forgiveness, without first being accurately informed about the situation at the time. Nor can it be based on the images of the past spread by public opinion, since they are often charged with an intense emotionalism that prevents calm, objective analysis. Source

As for Islam, what Saint Paul says in Galatians is all I need to know, about those that come after with a different message.

It’s hard to swallow any religion that would tell you** "if you say were not peaceful, we’ll cut you from ear to ear "** now show me the logic in that ? definitely not something I want to follow.

Yes we all get defensive, especially when someone wants to attack us, it’s human nature, in the end our faith is all we will have left.

Inquisition again? Completely missed the point I just made eh?

 

[Della]

The inquisitions were bad, I know the catholic church believes that as well. Sorry if I seemed angry, I’ve had a rather bad day so far, the smallest things are gating on my nerves, didn’t mean to specifically lash out at that

But yes, it may have been overlooked, and no I don’t hold it against the church unless someone brings up violence in another religions history. I have nothing against the teachings of the Christ, Jesus was an extraordinarily intelligent man whose teaching are prevalent in religions around the world, not just Christianity. Both Judaism and islam consider him a great man, and in the east he is known as Saint Issa to the Hindus and Buddhists, teaching the same message of love everywhere.
The thing I was taking issue with was the people who are quick to persecute someone just based on belief his own religion is absolute truthj without stoppping to examine the other side of the story. They decry islam as a horribly violent religion (which, while it does endorse violence, it can also be translatedto endorse love instead) yet they refuse to acknowledge, sometimes even glorify the same kinds of events in their own religion.
It’s this prejudiced, intolerant view that I’m taking issue with, not trying to attack the church at all

Well, no Catholic claims that mistakes and wrongs weren’t committed in the Inquisitions or the Crusades, but what we don’t like is people making sweeping statements that don’t fit the facts, just as anyone would who knows better. Yes?

Islam can be terribly violent. After all, it wasn’t Hindus or Buddhists who crashed commercial airliners filled with innocent people into the WTC, also filled with innocent people from over 80 countries. It was Muslims bent on destroying those people with no more regard for them than if they had been bothersome flies.

And why did they do that? Because their particular brand of Islam teaches them that not only is that a good thing, but that they will have an eternal reward in heaven for doing it. Pointing out these relevant facts isn’t accusing Islam of anything it isn’t guilty of.

It is a fact that Islam has always been spread more by the sword than by persuasion, especially in the Middle East and Southern Europe. It was in answer to such attacks by Islam that the Inquisitions were established and why the Crusades were fought. And those are plain historical facts.

As to who Jesus was/is–that is a matter of faith to be sure. But, the claims of Christianity aren’t unreasonable. And no one else in history has had a greater impact on the world than the Christ. In spite of the movement to erase him from human history, we still date according to his birth whether people want to call it the “common era” or AD. And Jesus is the only human being whom any religion has ever claimed was a real person who lived, died and rose from the dead. And that is the crux of the Faith which makes it totally different from any other belief system on earth.

 

[Eireann]

Inquisition again? Completely missed the point I just made eh?

Well maybe you just aren’t brilliant at getting your point across.

Then don’t bring up the subject, don’t poke that stick in the swamp if you don’t want the smell, and what is the point ?

Not a person has said anything back about the inquisition yet, when thousands upon thousands of people were tortured and killed for not believing as you do.

You said it, I replied, then you complain, oh well I guess I am missing the point.

Why are you complaining about people not replying, then when they do you complain that they replied ?

Holy smokin macaroni, this is just too much.

 

[Valke2]

Many times pointing out errors can be misinterpreted as being judgemental.

Is it wrong to point out the illogic in a belief system?
I might be rude if done without tact but it is not wrong.

As an example, if I see someone who is dedicating their lifes to a belief system which is illogical and I point out the illogic in this system I am being charitable in correcting them.
Lets say you believe you can save your child’s life by putting a magic stone on his belly.
I tell you that it could be appendicitis and he needs to see a doctor, am I being not loving?

Lets look at Islam which has no central authority which means that truth is not agreed upon in this belief system. So it is illogical to believe in a system that does not value truth. So am I not being loving by pointing out the illogic in this?

Who cares if Islam has resulted in extremists actions that kill and persecute people around the world. Actions of people do not determine whether a religion is correct or not.
I agree we should investigate the core of belief, and the core of Islam is illogical and inconsistant, so it can be disregarded as a valid belief system.
Much the same with Christian belief systems that have come up in the last few centuries, as they are inconsistant and illogical they can be disregarded as valid.

Should we respect opinion when that opinion is contrary to others. Does that mean that truth matters? If truth matters some opinions are actually based upon lies, so is it right to respect opinions based upon lies?
We should respect people, opinions can certainly be disrespected, but tactfully as people us insult\emotions to get out of accepting truth.

God Bless
Scylla

How is a Christian belief system more logical than an Islamic belief system?

 

[Oneiron]

Well maybe you just aren’t brilliant at getting your point across.

Then don’t bring up the subject, don’t poke that stick in the swamp if you don’t want the smell, and what is the point ?

You said it, I replied, then you complain, oh well I guess I am missing the point.

Why are you complaining about people not replying, then when they do you complain that they replied ?

Holy smokin macaroni, this is just too much.

hmmm… I guess you missed this post here when i explained it was not the crusades I was taking issue with. You were not the person I was reffering to, nor is this the thread in which I was asking for vindication of the inquisitions versus the professed evil of Islam. Kindly understand what I’m talking about please.

 

[Oneiron]

Well, no Catholic claims that mistakes and wrongs weren’t committed in the Inquisitions or the Crusades, but what we don’t like is people making sweeping statements that don’t fit the facts, just as anyone would who knows better. Yes?

When I stated that the inquisitions were about torturing and killing unbelievers in an attempt to convert them, where was I wrong? (Note, I also meant the Spanish Inquisition, the most famous of them)

Islam can be terribly violent. After all, it wasn’t Hindus or Buddhists who crashed commercial airliners filled with innocent people into the WTC, also filled with innocent people from over 80 countries. It was Muslims bent on destroying those people with no more regard for them than if they had been bothersome flies.

And why did they do that? Because their particular brand of Islam teaches them that not only is that a good thing, but that they will have an eternal reward in heaven for doing it. Pointing out these relevant facts isn’t accusing Islam of anything it isn’t guilty of.

I wasn’t saying that isn’t true, I’m claiming that many Christians are prejudiced against any Arabic persons they meet because of that. It’s that fear that I can’t stand.

It is a fact that Islam has always been spread more by the sword than by persuasion, especially in the Middle East and Southern Europe.

People often say this in defense of their dislike/fear/hatred of Islam, but Christianity was spread much the same way. Religions were outlawed in many countries, with the law putting to death any non-Christians or Christians of whatever denomination the kings were not. Also some of the Crusades and inquisitions.

It was in answer to such attacks by Islam that the Inquisitions were established and why the Crusades were fought. And those are plain historical facts.

Proof please. What I saw in the crusades was two powers fighting over one area that both wanted. The Christians were not just defending themselves, they were pressing offensive battles. And personally, nothing warrants an event such as an inquisition.

As to who Jesus was/is–that is a matter of faith to be sure. But, the claims of Christianity aren’t unreasonable. And no one else in history has had a greater impact on the world than the Christ. In spite of the movement to erase him from human history, we still date according to his birth whether people want to call it the “common era” or AD

Why should the history of the world be measured in years based on one religion. Is it really that horrible that someone may not want to have someone else’s religion forced on them in everything? What if the initials stood for after the death of the Buddha, or after the death of Mohammed? I think that there would be just as many people wishing for it to change, the original nomenclature was simply termed in a Christian nation.

And Jesus is the only human being whom any religion has ever claimed was a real person who lived, died and rose from the dead. And that is the crux of the Faith which makes it totally different from any other belief system on earth.

Ummm… Not up to date much ancient Egyptian and greek religions, among others, are we? Not to mention that Lazarus also lived, died, and rose from the dead (with a little bit of help ) according to the same religion. Other religions belive that their respective holy people were real, and many are believed to have been real by historians as well.

But that’s just quibbling on my part. The fact still remains that Jesus was a great man revered by peoples around the globe.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Oneiron:

No disrespect intended although you may feel it, but, *where *do you get your facts to assert the things you do about the Inquisition?

From your last posting, it seems like it was Hollywood and “Kingdom of Heaven.”

The BBC ran an extensive documentary about the Spanish Inquisition which caused an uproar in Britain. Why? Because the message was that an historical revisionism needed to take place (the UK has a history of warfare and extreme distrust [its mutual] of Spain since the 1580s): the numbers and alleged atrocities were overstated and [surprise, surprise] in many cases based upon tracts printed in London by anti-papists.

Your listed profile for religion is “Buddhist-Taoist.” Hmmm, what exactly is this? Could you elucidate your beliefs so we know better on how to address your allegations and statements?

As to the Church’s stand on your professed religion and other non-Christian traditions, go to the Vatican website (vatican.va) and type in Dominus Iesus, this is the encyclical with the final word and includes all the reasons for you to get wound up about.

Remember: it was Islam that drove the Christians out of the Holy Land. The Crusades (not the one that sacked Constantinople nor the Children’s Crusade: these remind me of Henry Ford and his rich liberal friends taking that ocean liner to Germany to stop WWI) were to retrieve these lands.

Further, wherever Islam went, they destroyed or built over Catholic sites, including churches and Cathedrals, with their mosques. Today in Islamic countries, ANY non-Islamic religion cannot be practised openly nor is it permitted to maintain a physical presence (such as a church, school, college or seminary). Of course, in Europe and here there are mosques and Saudi schools popping up.

You cannot compare the two: you can criticize the individuals who claim to be ‘holy’ and then kill the heathen or the infidel. But the better approach is to look at what each mainstream tradition (Catholic -including the eastern Churches- and Islam) teaches.

If you can’t see the glaring differences with even a cursory view, then you are here to pontificate and bully.

Pax Christi

Oh, by the way, the OT and NT are full of statements that ‘peace’ and ‘good will’ are for those people who follow God and God’s will, not for everybody.

The KJV changed the [now] famous “peace on earth to men of good will” to “Peace on earth; good will to me.” Big difference.

 

[Oneiron]

Oneiron:

No disrespect intended although you may feel it, but, *where *do you get your facts to assert the things you do about the Inquisition?

None taken, and what I’ve learned through mutliple history books and classes. Feel free to prove me wrong, I’m just going based on what I know and won’t be angry if I’m forced to conceded a point because I was actually wrong.

Your listed profile for religion is “Buddhist-Taoist.” Hmmm, what exactly is this? Could you elucidate your beliefs so we know better on how to address your allegations and statements?

I honestly don’t understand how this has anything to do with what I’m talking about. Explain how this connects to prejudiced persons and I’ll explain where I’m at in my religious life.

Remember: it was Islam that drove the Christians out of the Holy Land. The Crusades (not the one that sacked Constantinople nor the Children’s Crusade: these remind me of Henry Ford and his rich liberal friends taking that ocean liner to Germany to stop WWI) were to retrieve these lands.

Okay, so they were taking back land, but was this a religious war or political war? And in any case, was it justfiied and morally correct? From everything I know of the crusades the Muslims had as much claim to the land as the Christians.

And if you must know, to me war is the absolute last resort. But so many wars are waged around intolerance. I’m not just saying Christian intolerance either, this applies equally to Muslims, Jews, and all other religions to wage war in the name of intolerance.

Further, wherever Islam went, they destroyed or built over Catholic sites, including churches and Cathedrals, with their mosques.

Catholicism did this too in history to pagan lands, to shamanist lands, and to Muslim lands. The Muslims are hardly the only religion to attempt to eradicate all other religions when you look at history.

Today in Islamic countries, ANY non-Islamic religion cannot be practised openly nor is it permitted to maintain a physical presence (such as a church, school, college or seminary). Of course, in Europe and here there are mosques and Saudi schools popping up.

Okay, so Europe and America have shown a higher level of tolerance than the Middle East. Islamic countries are also Theocracies. Once again, see Medieval Europe. Catholicism became the only religion in a country with the Pope having as much influence as a king. Theocracy.

You cannot compare the two

Why not?

you can criticize the individuals who claim to be ‘holy’ and then kill the heathen or the infidel.

That’s what I’m doing, except I’m also criticizing the person who claims to be loving and yet is prejudiced of another race, religion, or creed, be that prejudice through hate or fear.

But the better approach is to look at what each mainstream tradition (Catholic -including the eastern Churches- and Islam) teaches.

Okay… I’m not in a debate over which religion is better.

If you can’t see the glaring differences with even a cursory view, then you are here to pontificate and bully.

And pray tell exactly how do you come to this conclusion. I came with a specific gripe about a type of person i have come into contact with on here. My complaints are not directed at any one religion, nor are they directed at all persons following Catholicism. I’m just asking how someone can defend promoting such a thing as prejudice of another kind of person. How does this make me a bully?

And when did i say that Catholicism and Islam were the same? I remember making no such claim. I did however state that there were similarities in their histories. This is not equating the two as being equal.

 

[Oneiron]

Continued…

Oh, by the way, the OT and NT are full of statements that ‘peace’ and ‘good will’ are for those people who follow God and God’s will, not for everybody.

To the best of my knowledge jesus never said “Love everyone except that Arab dude down the street. He’s gnona Jihad you, so get him before he gets you”
Luke 6:27-36:

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful

Where in there does it say that you should make exceptions for people who don’t believe as you?

 

[Valke2]

Please read my comments in a calm, matter-of-fact tone–I have no desire to “get you” or try to make a fool of you.

If you mentioned the Inquisitions along with many other topics, and as you did here, it may have been ignored as being just another accusation thrown out there as if it were to be taken for granted. You see, people often assume that merely mentioning the Inquisitions will make Catholics run or blush, but they do neither, believe me.

The Inquisitions, there were more than one, can only paint the religion in a bad light if the information about them that is so often written were true. If you believe the falsities about the Inquisitions without questioning them, and spread them to others or hold them up as “proof” of the Church’s sins, then that would make you bigoted. If you didn’t intend to do that, then you were not being bigoted, so I apologize for saying you were.

The inquisitions have been discussed at length on these forums. Do a simple search to find the threads and read them. Or read the online Catholic Encyclopedia about the Inquisitions, which will tell you more than you probably wanted to know, and not all of it in favor of the actions of the leaders of the Church.

Your article doesn’t deny the burings, torture, staking etc. It simply says these were also done by other courts at the time. As the Inquisition was established to ferret out heresy, it is odd that it still somehow managed to persecute Jews. First they were forced to convert and then they were subjected to inquisition under suspicion (rightly) that they were not sincere.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

I’m sure many of you are going to find this rather offensive, but frankly I don’t care anymore. My short tenure on this forum has shown me that a good majority of Catholics and other Christians are more bigoted than the rest of the world. They attempt

to learn of Mohammed and Islam, yet seek out only that which proves their view of it being a waqr promoting religion. They do not care for researching the historical aspect of those wars, even if their action would then make them seem less hateful toward the rest of the world.

Well, Oneiron, this is where you say the things I am responding to: "I came in with a specific gripe about a type of person I have come into contact with on here."

Your quote from the first paragraph: “My short tenure on this forum has shown me that a good majority of Catholics and other Christians are more bigoted than the rest of the world,” says it all.

“A type of person”??!!

Look, I am sorry you are so bitter (your autobiographic details on an earlier post) but drop the animus if you want to have a discussion

Here are your inconsistencies:

1. Your unBuddhist like accusations in your initial post which you gloss over or contradict when others catch you on a point.
2. Your ignorance of when Islam became a religion in the middle east (500+ years AFTER Catholicism) thus your statement that “Catholic did this too in history…to Moslem lands” is false and without merit. (as an aside: are you aware of the history of the croissant?)
3. Your faulty logic and line of reasoning, believing that since one must love his enemy, it follows that one must let his enemy kill him and his family and his culture. If you think this is Christianity, then why not, as a follower of Buddha, kill yourself? After all, denial of this life and all of its pleasure and pains is the point of your ‘faith.’ Gotta get that nirvana!
4. Your inability to see your own contradictory statement of belief. Here I am talking about your Buddhist-Taoist claim. These are contradictory beliefs. That is why I am asking you, because if you don’t understand why they are contradictory, then there is a snowball’s chance in hell you are going to understand most of what others respond to you.
5. Irrelevance of whether the Crusades were a political war or a religious war. Western civilization is a result of the Catholic Church and the Roman influences it carried after the fall of the Eastern empire and the Visigoth sack of Rome. Religion and Politics are usually one. It is irrelevant and off point to pretend they are not. Your ideal society would reflect your religious views.
6. “From everything I know of the crusades the Moslems had as much claim to the land as the Christians.” Sorry, you know next to nothing here. (see number 2 above).
7. Disregard of historical processes and societal change. Islam hasn’t changed, Oneiron. There are no Papal States anymore. And given the record of the two, I (and most others in these Forums) would probably choose to live under a Catholic political system as opposed to one of Islam (which means ‘obedience’).

You ranted and raved at the beginning and you act all huffy when called on your bogus history and goofy assertions. Sorry, but its not charity in my religion to suffer idiots and their scandalous spewing against my faith.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Your article doesn’t deny the burings, torture, staking etc. It simply says these were also done by other courts at the time. As the Inquisition was established to ferret out heresy, it is odd that it still somehow managed to persecute Jews. First they were forced to convert and then they were subjected to inquisition under suspicion (rightly) that they were not sincere

We know why Jews were treated with suspicion and cruelty. It was the idiotic belief that there was some kind of racial guilt for the death of Jesus.

Besides being stupid and illogical (in view of Catholic teaching of the OT predictions of the death and resurrection of the Messiah), it was also politically expedient.

These were evil people, stupid people. And the Jews of the times (England in the 1200s; Venice in the quattrocento) kept to themselves, thus justifying in the perverted views of the counts and doges, their ‘alien status.’ And if it were at all possible to prove someday, I believe we would find that many of those in power who forced Jews to live in ghettos under repressive laws were (like Charlemagne and all English royalty up to the Tudors) illiterate and fearful of Jewish strength and intelligence in business and in education.

As Catholics (my wife is Jewish; her father-Moshe Dreksler of blessed memory-was a hero of the '48 War of Independence) we consider ourselves (rightly in light of St Paul’s experience and letters) to be ‘spiritual Jews.’ Our faith was part of the Jewish faith until the destruction of the Temple by Titus in 70 AD/CE.

Many of our prayers and rituals are Jewish in origin. Pope John Paul II reiterated what many prior popes (not the ones from the post WWII period!) and Church Fathers have said: Jews have a covenant with God and that has not changed.

It’s a Protestant belief that Jews need to be converted in order to enjoy the Presence of God in Heaven.

Yikes! It’s 2 am! Good night all.