Low birth rates

[pensmama87]

That is true for some cases but not this IMO.

I have volunteered for some events before which allowed me to meet other families who are poor as well/poorer than me. Most kids there, while they loved their families, felt like burdens and they felt more pressure to do well to earn money (or to compensate).

This pressure can be good, that’s how we get success stories of poor people working hard to be doctors, lawyers etc. But for people who are not naturally gifted in learning, it could shatter them.

I am not sure if it is generally an Asian mindset, but I have also seen american kids venting about it. People think that their kids are not feeling this way but why on earth would they ever want to make their parents feel guilty

Nobody is denying that there are happy people with no money, and I don’t get why people are offended because I personally do not want a lot of kids if I cannot provide for them

But at issue is a dysfunctional mindset, which you don’t see because you suffer from the same dysfunction.

I’m not telling you how many kids you should have. Economic decisions can very well factor into family planning. But you need to correct the idea that you or anyone else is a burden simply because he or she exists. That flies in the face of what God knows about each and every one of us as one of His beloved children.

 

[Lea101]

But at issue is a dysfunctional mindset, which you don’t see because you suffer from the same dysfunction.

I’m not telling you how many kids you should have. Economic decisions can very well factor into family planning. But you need to correct the idea that you or anyone else is a burden simply because he or she exists. That flies in the face of what God knows about each and every one of us as one of His beloved children.

A child isn’t a burden. But that doesn’t mean the child won’t feel that way…that also doesn’t mean that parents don’t make their children feel that way (stupid stuff parents say BS like “I worked so hard for you, I put a roof over your head, I worked long hours so you have something to eat, I spent so much money on you” and get shocked if their child feels like a burden)

Obviously I want to give my kids a good life so they don’t have to be in that situation. Hopefully, I would have a well paying job. I’m obviously going to try to have money, not to give up and decide I’m only having 1 child. If I’m unable to get a good job, I’m obviously going to try my best to avoid more children than I could afford. If that offends someone, the problem is definitely not me.

 

[ThePCWife]

Married women are having more and more kids, while unmarried women are having fewer and fewer. The distribution of births is changing to a small hard core having relatively more kids with a bigger chunk of women having none or one out of wedlock.

It’s going from this for five random fertile-age women: 0, 1(unwed), 3, 2, 2
To this for five random fertile-age women: 0, 0, 1(unwed), 3, 4

Note that you get eight kids either way, but in the second case it comes from three women instead of four.

This is in America, which is where most of these scary stories are from.

Social capital is what people used to raise kids with instead of money. Now we don’t have it, but people want to lie to young folks and tell them money isn’t needed, usually people who do still have access to social capital and often money too.

All we have is money, and it’s not enough. We can never have the family size we’d like and we’re making our peace with that and doing the best we can for the kids we do have.

We have a very high income even for married couples with kids (who have median incomes about twice the national median) and it still can’t buy me eight uninterrupted hours of sleep or someone to take the baby for a couple of hours in the mornings. It can’t buy my husband out of a terrible, health-damaging commute and it can’t buy my kids the ability to stop being so robustly healthy and active they exhaust everyone who cares for them longer than a couple of hours.

Our income also can’t buy us a safe place for the kids to run around outside for hours per day cheaply. We pay a high price for the very thing that keeps them so active that other people get worn out just looking at them.

We know some other parents in our boat with active kids. They all get to live near vast numbers of relatives on inherited land or land they bought with cash from selling at the top of a coastal market. Nice if you have that, but many couples no longer do.

So I understand why married people with kids make way more money these days than everyone else. It’s expensive to replace social capital with inadequate and inferior substitutes that leave both parents overworked and sleep deprived for up to a decade with “just” 2-4 kids and 15-20 years with 5-7 kids.

If you want to be the social capital for young married couples, please, by all means, do that. They they don’t need as much money to raise kids somewhere safe and clean with decent food and housing and a good opportunity for education and mental and physical development.

 

[Xantippe]

married women are having more and more kids, while unmarried women are having fewer and fewer. The distribution of births is changing to a small hard core having relatively more kids with a bigger chunk of women having none or one out of wedlock.

It’s going from this for five random fertile-age women: 0, 1(unwed), 3, 2, 2
to this for five random fertile-age women: 0, 0, 1(unwed), 3, 4

note that you get eight kids either way, but in the second case it comes from three women instead of four.

This is in america, which is where most of these scary stories are from.

Social capital is what people used to raise kids with instead of money. Now we don’t have it, but people want to lie to young folks and tell them money isn’t needed, usually people who do still have access to social capital and often money too.

All we have is money, and it’s not enough. We can never have the family size we’d like and we’re making our peace with that and doing the best we can for the kids we do have.

We have a very high income even for married couples with kids (who have median incomes about twice the national median) and it still can’t buy me eight uninterrupted hours of sleep or someone to take the baby for a couple of hours in the mornings. It can’t buy my husband out of a terrible, health-damaging commute and it can’t buy my kids the ability to stop being so robustly healthy and active they exhaust everyone who cares for them longer than a couple of hours.

Our income also can’t buy us a safe place for the kids to run around outside for hours per day cheaply. We pay a high price for the very thing that keeps them so active that other people get worn out just looking at them.

We know some other parents in our boat with active kids. They all get to live near vast numbers of relatives on inherited land or land they bought with cash from selling at the top of a coastal market. Nice if you have that, but many couples no longer do.

So i understand why married people with kids make way more money these days than everyone else. It’s expensive to replace social capital with inadequate and inferior substitutes that leave both parents overworked and sleep deprived for up to a decade with “just” 2-4 kids and 15-20 years with 5-7 kids.

If you want to be the social capital for young married couples, please, by all means, do that. They they don’t need as much money to raise kids somewhere safe and clean with decent food and housing and a good opportunity for education and mental and physical development.

clap clap clap clap clap clap clap!

 

[Rosebud77]

Despite what others say, the Church does not require that you get married and have lots of babies.

The Church requires that if you get married, you have to be open the life. If you are open to life and have little to no children than you are not sinning. Catholics are not Quiverfullers.

Spreading the gospel and living the Christian life does not involve trying to outbreed the opposition. After all, it is no guarantee that a child born to Catholic parents, no matter how devout, will remain Catholic.

Thank you for this voice of faithful reason, set against that seems like a panic that is not of God

 

[Rosebud77]

Here in Ireland the population has only recently shown its first increase since the Famine, a fact totally due to the Catholic Church.

After the Famine, Rome set out to use Ireland to fill the world with priests and nuns. under the aegis of Paul Cardinal Cullen…

Women and men were vigorously conscripted into convents and the priesthood which effectively took a whole generation of marriageable women out of the picture and left Ireland with a generation of crusty old bachelors, each village has aged such !

I met one dear old Sister at my market stall who was the only surivor of a family of 7 of whom became priests or nuns and that was common.

NB I know a dear lady in Canada, from Ireland who was one of 12 children and her sister had 22 children…

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Can’t speak for Singapore where I think the OP is from, but the other part of the equation is the teen pregnancy prevention efforts of the past decades. Teen pregnancy is down, but the the list of issues mentioned as a reason to avoid teen parenthood still exist during some of the most fertile early to mid adult years. In a way some of the issues that one would have as a teen actually get bigger.

 

[Lea101]

Can’t speak for Singapore where I think the OP is from, but the other part of the equation is the teen pregnancy prevention efforts of the past decades. Teen pregnancy is down, but the the list of issues mentioned as a reason to avoid teen parenthood still exist during some of the most fertile early to mid adult years. In a way some of the issues that one would have as a teen actually get bigger.

I’m not the OP,

Valid points though (young adults are usually studying or are just starting out their careers and etc)

 

[Usige]

How much cheaper is it to raise a bunch of children in the US?

Whenever i think about the cost of hospital visits, diapers, baby food, baby clothes, other baby stuff, cost of childcare, cost of school education, cost of books, uniforms, shoes, stationery, cost of clothes for the growing child to wear

Well, I have 7 kids and I’m far from a millionaire.

In general each extra kids has cost me maybe an extra 400-800 per YEAR. You don’t have to buy a new wardrobe for each kid. We have storage bins of clothes by size. We are lucky that all our kids were born in winter so sizes and seasons match between each kid. We also have people who are happy to give us their kids clothes. Until about 4, most kids outgrow their clothes quicker than the clothes wear out.

Baby food? Mother’s milk is essentially free and even when on solids it’s maybe $10 -20 per month until they are teens.

Child care, school education, books, uniforms? Zero cost. We home school and use the library. We spend maybe $200 per year for new materials, our local “free” public school has about $100/year/kid for “book fees” to use 10 year old text books. Child care would cost us more than my wife would make so she simply doesn’t work outside the home.

Obviously cost of living in different parts of the world will very, but I think most people grossly over estimate the cost of multiple kids. I always say the first one is the most expensive and then they get cheaper to raise as numbers go up.

 

[Sarcelle]

I am noticing a pattern in terms of society and industrialization. The more rooted agrarian societies have larger numbers of children to help out with farming while industrialized societies are more mobile with people moving all over the place for work. A poster mentioned social capital. The nuclear family will do a lot better if they have the support of the extended family, which I realize is a rarity in a more industrialized society.

I noticed a lot of the bigger families here in the US live in more rural areas with extended family nearby.

I somehow cannot picture a family of twelve crammed into a HD flat in Singapore.

 

[Lea101]

Well, I have 7 kids and I’m far from a millionaire.

In general each extra kids has cost me maybe an extra 400-800 per YEAR. You don’t have to buy a new wardrobe for each kid. We have storage bins of clothes by size. We are lucky that all our kids were born in winter so sizes and seasons match between each kid. We also have people who are happy to give us their kids clothes. Until about 4, most kids outgrow their clothes quicker than the clothes wear out.

Baby food? Mother’s milk is essentially free and even when on solids it’s maybe $10 -20 per month until they are teens.

Child care, school education, books, uniforms? Zero cost. We home school and use the library. We spend maybe $200 per year for new materials, our local “free” public school has about $100/year/kid for “book fees” to use 10 year old text books. Child care would cost us more than my wife would make so she simply doesn’t work outside the home.

Obviously cost of living in different parts of the world will very, but I think most people grossly over estimate the cost of multiple kids. I always say the first one is the most expensive and then they get cheaper to raise as numbers go up.

Like you said, the cost varies among countries and families. Homeschooling is hardly a thing here, school books etc are necessary for children 7 years and up here. Uniforms too. Although uniforms can last for years and cheaper overall because the child don’t have to wear normal clothes during most of his/her schooling years. (Singapore’s schools require uniforms)

Education system is also different, public libraries here are absolutely useless when it comes to textbooks etc. I remember going there as a kid and having a hissy fit, lol!

The clothes i use at home are mostly hand me downs from my oldest brother, so you can imagine how girly i must look (Do anyone even buy clothes to wear at home? Waste of money) But when it comes to clothes to wear outside when hanging out with friends, events, church, and now, school (higher education), it’s pretty hard to find cheap clothes imo.

School allowance for the month for 7-12 year olds can usually add up to 70-100 a month (or less, depending on the child’s schedule).

And then the transport fee for a school bus to come and pick them up. If you choose to send them to and back from school, gas $$ also counts. If the child were to take public transport, it could be 25-30 a month.

If a child wants to take part in clubs or stuff like that, you might have to pay a fee

If a child wants enrichment classes/etc to develop his or her hobbies, and you have no guts to deny them that, that counts too.

When the child is 13+, transport fee is still 25-30 a month, allowance will be more than $150 (school hours can be really long, so the child usually eats at least 2 meals in school) School materials-test papers, books, stuff like that. That really depends on the school though. But I remember spending $100 excluding textbooks on testpapers to prepare for my finals last year

These teenagers probably have handphones, so those bills also count. Shampoo, face cleanser, etc etc also counts.

Then you have to pay for the exams. The government decided that our finals should be free last year, but it was a one time thing I believe.

Then comes tertiary education. If a child decided to take A levels, school fees can be quite cheap. If the child decided to take a diploma, it’s 2k a year. Add in allowance, which will be 250 and above because the price of food is higher in these schools. Also cost of clothes and shoes. I just spent $80 on formal attire (pencil skirt, button down top and really cheap shoes) because we have to do presentations.

The cost of a laptop 1.3k-2k (necessary for those studying in a polyechnic here)

And then university and blah blah.

Can you hear me crying

Oh not to mention medical bills. If your wife has complications with the pregnancy, your child falls seriously sick or was in a car accident, or if your child needs go for therapy or something.

Keep in mind that this is all based from where I’m from. I know it’s also expensive to raise children in other places, but my country is known to be one of the most expensive places to live in. We receive financial help, but we are still struggling to the point where my allowance comes from the scholarships I receive over the years that was meant for my university fees.

 

[AClaire11]

Well, I have 7 kids and I’m far from a millionaire.

In general each extra kids has cost me maybe an extra 400-800 per YEAR. You don’t have to buy a new wardrobe for each kid. We have storage bins of clothes by size. We are lucky that all our kids were born in winter so sizes and seasons match between each kid. We also have people who are happy to give us their kids clothes. Until about 4, most kids outgrow their clothes quicker than the clothes wear out.

Baby food? Mother’s milk is essentially free and even when on solids it’s maybe $10 -20 per month until they are teens.

Child care, school education, books, uniforms? Zero cost. We home school and use the library. We spend maybe $200 per year for new materials, our local “free” public school has about $100/year/kid for “book fees” to use 10 year old text books. Child care would cost us more than my wife would make so she simply doesn’t work outside the home.

Obviously cost of living in different parts of the world will very, but I think most people grossly over estimate the cost of multiple kids. I always say the first one is the most expensive and then they get cheaper to raise as numbers go up.

What’s the cost of living for your area, though? To live within a reasonable commuting distance of our city, a small dumpy house in a bad school district can be $500k+.

 

[Xantippe]

Well, I have 7 kids and I’m far from a millionaire.

**In general each extra kids has cost me maybe an extra 400-800 per YEAR. **You don’t have to buy a new wardrobe for each kid. We have storage bins of clothes by size. We are lucky that all our kids were born in winter so sizes and seasons match between each kid. We also have people who are happy to give us their kids clothes. Until about 4, most kids outgrow their clothes quicker than the clothes wear out.

Baby food? Mother’s milk is essentially free and even when on solids it’s maybe $10 -20 per month until they are teens.

Child care, school education, books, uniforms? Zero cost. We home school and use the library. We spend maybe $200 per year for new materials, our local “free” public school has about $100/year/kid for “book fees” to use 10 year old text books. Child care would cost us more than my wife would make so she simply doesn’t work outside the home.

Obviously cost of living in different parts of the world will very, but I think most people grossly over estimate the cost of multiple kids. I always say the first one is the most expensive and then they get cheaper to raise as numbers go up.

That’s interesting.

My oldest child had an impacted molar and her wisdom teeth all taken out at the same time this spring. It was under general anesthesia and our after-insurance share of the cost was $2400.

That was just one single event.

This is not a kid thing, but my husband just had to have an MRI done on his knee–he shopped it hard before doing it, but our after-insurance expense was nonetheless $400.

Again–just a single event.

We find those kind of expenses (while not a monthly thing) come up at least a couple times a year. Any minor ER visit (and we’ve had lots) is going to run us somewhere in the neighborhood of $500-$1500 each time.

 

[Xantippe]

Like you said, the cost varies among countries and families. Homeschooling is hardly a thing here, school books etc are necessary for children 7 years and up here. Uniforms too. Although uniforms can last for years and cheaper overall because the child don’t have to wear normal clothes during most of his/her schooling years. (Singapore’s schools require uniforms)

Education system is also different, public libraries here are absolutely useless when it comes to textbooks etc. I remember going there as a kid and having a hissy fit, lol!

The clothes i use at home are mostly hand me downs from my oldest brother, so you can imagine how girly i must look (Do anyone even buy clothes to wear at home? Waste of money) But when it comes to clothes to wear outside when hanging out with friends, events, church, and now, school (higher education), it’s pretty hard to find cheap clothes imo.

School allowance for the month for 7-12 year olds can usually add up to 70-100 a month (or less, depending on the child’s schedule).

And then the transport fee for a school bus to come and pick them up. If you choose to send them to and back from school, gas $$ also counts. If the child were to take public transport, it could be 25-30 a month.

If a child wants to take part in clubs or stuff like that, you might have to pay a fee

If a child wants enrichment classes/etc to develop his or her hobbies, and you have no guts to deny them that, that counts too.

When the child is 13+, transport fee is still 25-30 a month, allowance will be more than $150 (school hours can be really long, so the child usually eats at least 2 meals in school) School materials-test papers, books, stuff like that. That really depends on the school though. But I remember spending $100 excluding textbooks on testpapers to prepare for my finals last year

These teenagers probably have handphones, so those bills also count. Shampoo, face cleanser, etc etc also counts.

Then you have to pay for the exams. The government decided that our finals should be free last year, but it was a one time thing I believe.

Then comes tertiary education. If a child decided to take A levels, school fees can be quite cheap. If the child decided to take a diploma, it’s 2k a year. Add in allowance, which will be 250 and above because the price of food is higher in these schools. Also cost of clothes and shoes. I just spent $80 on formal attire (pencil skirt, button down top and really cheap shoes) because we have to do presentations.

The cost of a laptop 1.3k-2k (necessary for those studying in a polyechnic here)

And then university and blah blah.

Can you hear me crying

Oh not to mention medical bills. If your wife has complications with the pregnancy, your child falls seriously sick or was in a car accident, or if your child needs go for therapy or something.

Keep in mind that this is all based from where I’m from. I know it’s also expensive to raise children in other places, but my country is known to be one of the most expensive places to live in. We receive financial help, but we are still struggling to the point where my allowance comes from the scholarships I receive over the years that was meant for my university fees.

I’ll throw in a number for music.

We have at least one musical child. I drug my feet until she was late into 6th grade before going for music lessons for her, as I knew that it would likely be a continuing obligation and expense. Once she started, it turned out that she did have a strong interest and a moderate talent and (more importantly for this discussion) that a weekly lesson would cost $99 a month.

Fortunately, her little brother is not musical and baby sister is too small still (although I suspect that baby sister should have lessons eventually).

Now, it’s true that nobody ever died without music lessons, but now that I see my daughter enjoying her lessons and progressing, I feel really mad about the fact that my sister, who was musically gifted and played in high school band, never got a single private lesson that I know of. Somebody also gave her a keyboard, and it either never crossed my parents’ minds or it just wasn’t financially feasible to get her lessons, so she never made any progress with it.

 

[Rosebud77]

That’s interesting.

My oldest child had an impacted molar and her wisdom teeth all taken out at the same time this spring. It was under general anesthesia and our after-insurance share of the cost was $2400.

That was just one single event.

This is not a kid thing, but my husband just had to have an MRI done on his knee–he shopped it hard before doing it, but our after-insurance expense was nonetheless $400.

Again–just a single event.

We find those kind of expenses (while not a monthly thing) come up at least a couple times a year. Any minor ER visit (and we’ve had lots) is going to run us somewhere in the neighborhood of $500-$1500 each time.

Wincing. I was raised with the English National Health Service. All free… And when I came to Ireland, that changed but being a pensioner on a low income, I have a Medical Card. so pay just E2.50 an item for meds on prescription It covers only minimal dental work which is why so many Irish have terrible teeth. ED attendance without the card is E100 straight off and then I think add on X rays etc

(name removed by moderator)atient I pay nothing. They are trying to get free care for all children. but it does all depend on family income

 

[Xantippe]

Wincing. I was raised with the English National Health Service. All free… And when I came to Ireland, that changed but being a pensioner on a low income, I have a Medical Card. so pay just E2.50 an item for meds on prescription It covers only minimal dental work which is why so many Irish have terrible teeth. ED attendance without the card is E100 straight off and then I think add on X rays etc

(name removed by moderator)atient I pay nothing. They are trying to get free care for all children. but it does all depend on family income

The extractions were a big nasty surprise, but I have to say that they were much better done than when I had the same thing done back in the late 1990s. Big Girl had a really good recovery and surprisingly little pain.

But, oh the bill!

 

[AClaire11]

I’ll throw in a number for music.

We have at least one musical child. I drug my feet until she was late into 6th grade before going for music lessons for her, as I knew that it would likely be a continuing obligation and expense. Once she started, it turned out that she did have a strong interest and a moderate talent and (more importantly for this discussion) that a weekly lesson would cost $99 a month.

Fortunately, her little brother is not musical and baby sister is too small still (although I suspect that baby sister should have lessons eventually).

Now, it’s true that nobody ever died without music lessons, but now that I see my daughter enjoying her lessons and progressing, I feel really mad about the fact that my sister, who was musically gifted and played in high school band, never got a single private lesson that I know of. Somebody also gave her a keyboard, and it either never crossed my parents’ minds or it just wasn’t financially feasible to get her lessons, so she never made any progress with it.

That’s a good point! Sports and music can be very costly! Around here, it’s $70 for an hour-long music lesson ($40 for half an hour), and sports teams charge up to $1k for each season. Then there’s equipment, and also camps and lessons if you’re very serious about it…And most kids I knew growing up played two or three different sports.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

I am noticing a pattern in terms of society and industrialization. The more rooted agrarian societies have larger numbers of children to help out with farming while industrialized societies are more mobile with people moving all over the place for work. A poster mentioned social capital. The nuclear family will do a lot better if they have the support of the extended family, which I realize is a rarity in a more industrialized society.

I noticed a lot of the bigger families here in the US live in more rural areas with extended family nearby.

I somehow cannot picture a family of twelve crammed into a HD flat in Singapore.

Excluding the intangible joys of parenthood, In an agrarian society children are an asset or at least somewhat neutral to the parent. In an industrial society children limit mobility and have a real cost, but in the past children “just happened”. Also, could be that I’m from an urban area but there is definitely an anecdotal inverse correlation between # of children & financial well-being.

That said, those here with larger families are forgetting to mention something important. Yes, more than likely you are less well off financially, but not necessarily “poor”. You love children so much you are willing to forgo many material joys for the joys of children.

 

[Usige]

What’s the cost of living for your area, though? To live within a reasonable commuting distance of our city, a small dumpy house in a bad school district can be $500k+.

That is one of the reasons I refuse to live on the coasts. We have data centers just outside Washington, DC but have many people that commute 1.5 - 2 hours each way from West Virginia or south east Virginia to avoid the DC cost of living tax.

Our cost of living is about 130% US national average compared to Arlington which is 180%. Our housting is about 200% national average where Arlington in 340%.

I don’t claim that you can live places with inflated costs of living for the same I do, but the per child cost ratios should be similar. Most people take the cost of a first child and multiply it by N number of children. Each child, in aggregate, costs less. This is the pattern I’ve seen with friends with larger familes in Michigan, North Carolina, Idaho, and California. Lea101 asked how cheap it was to raise kids in the US so I was sharing my experiences living on the outskirts of a city with 3 million plus residents (no I don’t live in the boonies).

 

[Chayla]

It appears no one mentioned this, but I think that lower birth rates are also a big reflection of people marrying at a later age. This applies to devout Catholics as well.

I have known devout Catholics, who were completely open to life, who marry in their mid to late thirties, end up having 1 or 2 kids only.