Low birth rates

[Usige]

That’s interesting.

My oldest child had an impacted molar and her wisdom teeth all taken out at the same time this spring. It was under general anesthesia and our after-insurance share of the cost was $2400.

That was just one single event.

This is not a kid thing, but my husband just had to have an MRI done on his knee–he shopped it hard before doing it, but our after-insurance expense was nonetheless $400.

Again–just a single event.

We find those kind of expenses (while not a monthly thing) come up at least a couple times a year. Any minor ER visit (and we’ve had lots) is going to run us somewhere in the neighborhood of $500-$1500 each time.

I have always been very mindful of the benefits provided by my employer and have turned down 10-15% pay increases to take jobs with better insurance. My oldest son has had 3 knee surgeries in the past 18 months (talking bone screews) and it cost me perhaps 1600 for all 3. Since I put money into a flexible medical savings it came out to about 1200 over 18 months after accounting for reduced taxes. When his sister had her wisdom teeth pulled it was about $300.

In the same years though 3 other kids had almost zero medical costs for the year. Now could we have a perfect storm and have all 7 kids have issues? Sure, but it’s why we made sure to get insurance with a low out of pocket family maximum. Since my premium costs are the same for 1 or 10 kids and the out of pocket maximum is not based on family size it does not cost me extra to have 1, 2, 5 or 7 kids.

 

[bitterhope]

Most military families I know have 3+ kids, live no where near extended family, are extremely mobile, and tend to have smaller incomes for similar civilian jobs. Many of us have 6+ children. We are expecting #9 and still won’t be the largest family just in my husband’s unit. One family has 10, two have 11, and one has14. People who truly want large families find the way to make it work regardless. The military doesn’t have a big income. We won’t get rich, especially since each family I just mentioned are enlisted. I don’t know officers, their families are pretty seperate from ours. Our benefits are amazingly good and and somewhat makes up for the small income, but still our benefits aren’t welfare and don’t cover everything. We make do with what we’ve got and it is very possible to be joyful and fulfilled while struggling to pay bills. I get so fed up with people blaming bad parenting and disfunction/abuse/neglect on lack money or not having land or not living near family or any of that kind of stuff. It really simply boils down to people doing what it takes to create the family and home life they desire. Life is only as expensive as we make it out to be. And I have lived many different places and we have had to adjust in many different ways, but we’ve never simply chosen to live in any of the spots we ended up. DC was tough financially and not a place I would choose to live again, but it was manageable with 6 kids at the time. people that live in DC area have been known to have larger families, too, so anyone truly desiring that should seek those families out and find out how they manage things. Same with people in other higher cost areas. Seek out local families of many and learn how they manage. I promise we exist everywhere. Sometimes we seem to be hidden but that is simply because we are busy and don’t always have time to be out and about. Often you see us with one or two of our children instead of the entire crew and therefore don’t realize there are so many. We are everywhere, but we prefer not being “on display” so we tend to stand in the background as much as possible. If couples are able and willing to have many children, they find the way to make it happen. And it doesn’t take a 6 figure+ income to make it happen regardless of where a family lives.

 

[Usige]

… People who truly want large families find the way to make it work regardless… If couples are able and willing to have many children, they find the way to make it happen. And it doesn’t take a 6 figure+ income to make it happen regardless of where a family lives.

(sorry for hacking you post apart, which I think was great)

I tend to find this to be the case also. It can be tougher to have a large family in more expensive locations, but I know people that live or work in some of the most expensive parts of the US that still find a way to raise 3, 4, 5+ kids on less than some that struggle to with just two working adults.

That is not to say that every couple is going to be able to afford 10 kids if they just try harder, but I do think there is a tendency to rely on a perception that children are simply too expensive to have more than one or two.

BTW - thank you and your husband for being open to children in more demanding situations than many of us will ever face.

As a PS many officers also have larger families. My diaconate class has many recently retired Air Force officers with 5 or 6 kids. We also have a friend who is an active duty Lt Col that has 7. Obviously different pay from enlisted, but I think the military culture frowns on large families far less than society in general.

 

[rainereli_rod]

I see the interest in the post and the variety of opinion some of them are very good.

But we can also must take in count that we are part of a Church, and that church is Mother!!! but i have never listen any priest in my 27 years of life addressing this issue. Neither from my natural mother

I do not know about you , but i really would like see more initiative. Have you listen a message like this from a member of our church ?

youtube.com/watch?v=ep6eJnRLBEA ( i really like this one)

What about who says that we Christians are getting married too late.

youtube.com/watch?v=EKhyx3ZBpXg

You see what i mean !!! At least here where i lived church is almost silent about marriage. Protestant seems very active thought

One last Example do the experiment.

I look in youtube:

christian marriage = 2,100,000
catholic marriage= 416,000

Muslim marriage = 4,770,000 !!

See what i mean friends

 

[rainereli_rod]

Have anyone told their son or dougther any advice about marriage and the importance of it ?, I bet that you have told to your children’s the same thing that my mother told me. wait , have a career, don’t have many childrens, you need to have a house, give yourself time.

 

[Rico_S]

In general each extra kids has cost me maybe an extra 400-800 per YEAR. You don’t have to buy a new wardrobe for each kid. We have storage bins of clothes by size. We are lucky that all our kids were born in winter so sizes and seasons match between each kid. We also have people who are happy to give us their kids clothes. Until about 4, most kids outgrow their clothes quicker than the clothes wear out.

Baby food? Mother’s milk is essentially free and even when on solids it’s maybe $10 -20 per month until they are teens.

Child care, school education, books, uniforms? Zero cost. We home school and use the library. We spend maybe $200 per year for new materials, our local “free” public school has about $100/year/kid for “book fees” to use 10 year old text books. Child care would cost us more than my wife would make so she simply doesn’t work outside the home.

Obviously cost of living in different parts of the world will very, but I think most people grossly over estimate the cost of multiple kids. I always say the first one is the most expensive and then they get cheaper to raise as numbers go up.

I believe those are seriously low estimates overall, but in any case…is it sinful to not want to live like that?

 

[AnnArbor]

NFP is still controversial. More and more Christians are believing (rightly) that one must abstain from intercourse entirely once they’re “done” having children reasonably. !

Where did you get the idea that this is “rightly”?

 

[Rico_S]

Have anyone told their son or dougther any advice about marriage and the importance of it ?, I bet that you have told to your children’s the same thing that my mother told me. wait , have a career, don’t have many childrens, you need to have a house, give yourself time.

I always speak to my daughters about them getting married and having kids, etc. It’s something they all want…at least in principle. But I think I would be remiss if I didn’t encourage them to get an education and acquire the necessary skills required for a career prior to them pursuing marriage. So yeah, I guess I’m pushing them to delay marriage and kids etc until they are in a position to support themselves. I hardly think this is a problem.

 

[rainereli_rod]

I see the interest in the post and the variety of opinion some of them are very good.

But we can also must take in count that we are part of a Church, and that church is Mother!!! but i have never listen any priest in my 27 years of life addressing this issue. Neither from my natural mother

I do not know about you , but i really would like see more initiative. Have you listen a message like this from a member of our church ?

youtube.com/watch?v=ep6eJnRLBEA ( i really like this one)

What about who says that we Christians are getting married too late.

youtube.com/watch?v=EKhyx3ZBpXg

You see what i mean !!! At least here where i lived church is almost silent about marriage. Protestant seems very active thought

One last Example do the experiment.

I look in youtube:

christian marriage = 2,100,000
catholic marriage= 416,000

Muslim marriage = 4,770,000 !!

See what i mean friends

I know this is going to sound polemical , and probably is not in our culture , i don’t remember the bible said our Blessed mother have a career, and i remember the bible curse Adam to work not the Eva. The curse of Adam is on me and every man. Yes i know is polemical , but it use the be that way, i do not remember what change along the way.

 

[pensmama87]

I believe those are seriously low estimates overall, but in any case…is it sinful to not want to live like that?

No.

It’s not even sinful to not want a lot of kids. (And I do want a lot of kids!)

I think the numbers are a bit low too. I am a very frugal grocery shopper, as many people on CAF know, and I know for certain my 5yo already eats $20 worth of groceries every week. He’s very tall for his age, so I’m sure that plays a role, but I am bummed on occasion that my super slashed grocery budget just isn’t going to work with three growing boys (plus any other children God blesses us with, which I hope and pray He will.)

I feel like I’m in the middle of the two sides emerging here. I don’t think we should pretend it’s easy to raise larger families like it was in the old days, because it’s not the same, and support systems are lacking. At the same time, I think all the fuss about how expensive everything is can be really, really overblown.

I also know that my perspective changed a great deal from the time before I had children or even prospects for marriage, from when I had my first, and so on. I live a pretty comfortable life - unlike most people who have ever lived on this earth, and I know that. But I also live much less comfortably than my parents did and do, even though they had four kids and my mom stayed at home. If we were still in the financial situation we were at the beginning of this year, I would definitely be putting off adding to our family, and I don’t think there would be any sin in that at all.

It really is hard to know until you’ve lived it, and matured enough to know your own strengths and weaknesses honestly.

 

[AClaire11]

That is one of the reasons I refuse to live on the coasts. We have data centers just outside Washington, DC but have many people that commute 1.5 - 2 hours each way from West Virginia or south east Virginia to avoid the DC cost of living tax.

Our cost of living is about 130% US national average compared to Arlington which is 180%. Our housting is about 200% national average where Arlington in 340%.

I don’t claim that you can live places with inflated costs of living for the same I do, but the per child cost ratios should be similar. Most people take the cost of a first child and multiply it by N number of children. Each child, in aggregate, costs less. This is the pattern I’ve seen with friends with larger familes in Michigan, North Carolina, Idaho, and California. Lea101 asked how cheap it was to raise kids in the US so I was sharing my experiences living on the outskirts of a city with 3 million plus residents (no I don’t live in the boonies).

I don’t disagree that it’s possible. I know several families at our church that live modestly and have 4+ children. But more often it’s the super rich who have the large families around here, at least in my experience. And finding a 3br home in a decent neighborhood that doesn’t break the bank is almost impossible, especially when one’s husband refuses to move out beyond a 1 hour commute by public transportation. We’ve been trying to move. but after being here for 3 years without even any interviews for out of state jobs, we’re feeling pretty stuck. And aside from the high COL, I do like it here in the inner suburbs. It’s just very expensive and I don’t know how on earth we’ll manage to save for a house. Right now we’re paying half our income to live in a dumpy studio just a few blocks from the ghetto. And my husband makes what would be a solid middle class salary anywhere else. Like I mentioned earlier, occupancy limits are 2 people for each room when renting. We simply can’t afford the space for a large family.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Have anyone told their son or dougther any advice about marriage and the importance of it ?, I bet that you have told to your children’s the same thing that my mother told me. wait , have a career, don’t have many childrens, you need to have a house, give yourself time.

My 5 year old (oldest) thinks the progression is elementary school, middle school, high school, college, then you become a nun (her own words). Not going to help fertility rates, but if even all my children became members of religious orders, I’d gladly forgo grandchildren out of sheer pride.

 

[Xantippe]

It appears no one mentioned this, but I think that lower birth rates are also a big reflection of people marrying at a later age. This applies to devout Catholics as well.

I have known devout Catholics, who were completely open to life, who marry in their mid to late thirties, end up having 1 or 2 kids only.

Right.

There’s a very fine Catholic blogger and writer (Dorothy Cummings McLean) who found her husband in her late 30s and married him at 38. They have been (not unexpectedly) unable to have children.

 

[ThePCWife]

Four hours a day in commute time is another kind of tax. Let’s not wave that away as a minor inconvenience.

Unless that 10-20 dollars a month per child counts food banks and free food from other sources, I think it’s a dangerous number to present as feasible. My kids cost 10-20 dollars per day to feed and it would be more like 50+ if I had seven.

 

[Xantippe]

I always speak to my daughters about them getting married and having kids, etc. It’s something they all want…at least in principle. But I think I would be remiss if I didn’t encourage them to get an education and acquire the necessary skills required for a career prior to them pursuing marriage. So yeah, I guess I’m pushing them to delay marriage and kids etc until they are in a position to support themselves. I hardly think this is a problem.

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

I know this is going to sound polemical , and probably is not in our culture , i don’t remember the bible said our Blessed mother have a career, and i remember the bible curse Adam to work not the Eva. The curse of Adam is on me and every man. Yes i know is polemical , but it use the be that way, i do not remember what change along the way.

See Proverbs 31.

It’s very, very unlikely that the Blessed Virgin never did any work for pay after marriage.

 

[Xantippe]

No.

It’s not even sinful to not want a lot of kids. (And I do want a lot of kids!)

I think the numbers are a bit low too. I am a very frugal grocery shopper, as many people on CAF know, and I know for certain my 5yo already eats $20 worth of groceries every week. He’s very tall for his age, so I’m sure that plays a role, but I am bummed on occasion that my super slashed grocery budget just isn’t going to work with three growing boys (plus any other children God blesses us with, which I hope and pray He will.)

I feel like I’m in the middle of the two sides emerging here. I don’t think we should pretend it’s easy to raise larger families like it was in the old days, because it’s not the same, and support systems are lacking. At the same time, I think all the fuss about how expensive everything is can be really, really overblown.

I also know that my perspective changed a great deal from the time before I had children or even prospects for marriage, from when I had my first, and so on. I live a pretty comfortable life - unlike most people who have ever lived on this earth, and I know that. But I also live much less comfortably than my parents did and do, even though they had four kids and my mom stayed at home. If we were still in the financial situation we were at the beginning of this year, I would definitely be putting off adding to our family, and I don’t think there would be any sin in that at all.

It really is hard to know until you’ve lived it, and matured enough to know your own strengths and weaknesses honestly.

For our family, I have pretty good records, and our grocery budgets (food plus any stuff we buy at the grocery store) are $200 higher per month since Baby Girl started eating seriously–that’s her food plus disposable () diapers plus wipes. I’m hoping to slash that by at least 1/3 once she finally potty trains (the diapers and wipes alone are something in the neighborhood of $70 a month).

We’re not uber frugal, but we are budget conscious.

Edited to add: our kids are always late potty trainers (like nearly 4/nearly 4.5) and so I have to buy the super mega ultra big pullups for her that cost over 60 cents each. (The cheap stuff leaks horribly–these expensive ones at least keep stuff in.)

 

[UbiCaritas]

See Proverbs 31.

It’s very, very unlikely that the Blessed Virgin never did any work for pay after marriage.

Leaving aside anything else, while St. Joseph was a carpenter (i.e., worked in a skilled trade), for the first few years of Jesus’ life the Holy Family were refugees in a land and time that were not at all kind to outsiders. In Nazareth, I expect that St. Joseph would have been known as a good and thoroughly honest craftsman, one whose family had lived there for generations. “Oh, you need a new table/chair/chest/house? Joseph’s the guy you want–two streets over, third house on the left, give you a good price and solid work. I knew his dad well, and Joseph’s done a great job since he took over the business.”

In Egypt? “What’s that Jew doing here? We know what they’re all like, wouldn’t trust him with a ten-foot pole, stick with a good Egyptian whose family you know is what I always say.” Or, slightly better but still not terribly useful from the putting-food-on-the-table perspective, “Well, there’s that Jew who just came into town and opened his own business, but I’ve been doing business with Cheops & Co. for as long as I can remember and he’s treated me well, so I don’t see any reason to take a risk on a newcomer.”

In all likelihood, at least in those Egypt years, Our Lady would have been sewing/weaving/cooking/doing housework/gardening/gathering/some combination of the above in order to make ends meet.

 

[AClaire11]

Four hours a day in commute time is another kind of tax. Let’s not wave that away as a minor inconvenience.

Unless that 10-20 dollars a month per child counts food banks and free food from other sources, I think it’s a dangerous number to present as feasible. My kids cost 10-20 dollars per day to feed and it would be more like 50+ if I had seven.

And very unhealthy for your body, mind, and marriage.

 

[Usige]

Four hours a day in commute time is another kind of tax. Let’s not wave that away as a minor inconvenience.

I am not waving it away. I clearly state that it is the reason I refuse to live in rediculously overpriced areas. It’s all about tradeoffs.

Unless that 10-20 dollars a month per child counts food banks and free food from other sources, I think it’s a dangerous number to present as feasible. My kids cost 10-20 dollars per day to feed and it would be more like 50+ if I had seven.

We live around several minifarms and buy pretty much everything in bulk. We buy butchered chickens and beef directly from local ranchers and keep them in a chest freezer. We also buy things like eggs and produce from local sources as much as possible. We also make many things from scratch which saves money too. When you aren’t paying for shipping, packaging, advertising and store markup your costs can go down fairly significantly. We spend no where near $10 per day on each kid for food and all my kids are perfectly healthy.

Yes there is a trade off in convenience vs cost, buy it is the tradeoffs we are willing to make. Does that mean everyone can, or is willing to put forth the effort? No, but it also doesn’t mean it’s impossible. I put it forth so people look beyond what others tell them so they can explore what might be possible instead of just assuming that kids are too expensive.