Low gluten challenges the Real Presence

[mwashabaugh]

Coming in late to this discussion. Isn’t Jesus coming to us in the forms of bread and wine the same as him coming to us in the form of man? He really is man and he really is God. So, can’t he really be bread/wine and really be God?

 

[tee_eff_em]

Coming in late to this discussion. Isn’t Jesus coming to us in the forms of bread and wine the same as him coming to us in the form of man? He really is man and he really is God. So, can’t he really be bread/wine and really be God?

That is not the teaching of the Church regarding the Eucharist.

The situation you propose does accurately describe the hypostatic union in the incarnation – Jesus fully human and fully divine – One in being with the Father – Consubstantial with the Father.

Church teaching about the Eucharist, however, is transubstatiation. The substance of the bread and wine is completely changed to and replaced by the substance of Jesus Christ, the second person of the trinity, the eternal logos. Only the accidents of the bread and wine remain.

tee

 

[mwashabaugh]

Guess I’d better study my prefixes!

 

[Mommyof02green]

Catholicism teaches that AFTER the consecration that the bread and wine is NO longer bread and wine. That what reminds are only the “accidents” or “appearances” of bread and wine.

The OP doesn’t understand how if the Substance has change to the Body, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, how can those that suffer from Celiac Disease have a problem with the host after consecration?

What happens to the “substance” when you take a consecrated host and break it into 2?
Do you break Christ into 2? Is a person only getting ½ of Christ is they only get ½ of host?

What if the consecrated host is broken into 4 parts? Do you break Christ into 4 parts? Is a person only getting ¼ of Christ if they only get ¼ of the host?

What if it was only just a tiny, tiny, piece of the consecrated host? A small crumb like piece of the consecrated host: Does the person that received the small crumb like piece of the consecrated host, receive less then a person that receives a whole piece?

The answer is Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that breaking of the bread does NOT divide Christ.

Christ’s Presence is so great that it can’t be measured.

I’ve been doing more reading on the Eucharist today (cause of this thread)

From some of the reading today; it is my understanding that the Eucharist is food for body and soul. The body assumes the “appearances” or “accidentals” of the bread and wine, while the soul receives Christ personally and totally.

I know that I’m body and soul, but my Dr. can never seem to find my soul?

 

[Melchior]

I have been reading much about the low-gluten host issue for people suffering from celiac disease. Much is being said about the effects gluten has on these peoples’ health and how important it is for them to avoid all gluten and stick to gluten-free diets. And it makes sense in regards to an everyday diet, i.e. food we consume during regular meals.

In context with the Catholic Faith I found many references to Holy Communion stating that celiac disease prevents people from receiving the Blessed Sacrament. I even found a website where altar breads with an extremely low gluten level can be ordered. According to the website where they can be ordered they have been approved by the Office of the Secretariat for the Liturgy of the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops for “use in the diocese of the United States with appropriate permission”.

What is a puzzlement to is that nowhere have I found reference to ‘Faith in the Real Presence‘.

What do we Catholics believe?
We believe that the bread and wine at the words of Consecration change into the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ and only the appearance of bread and wine remains while the substance has changed entirely into the Body and Blood of Christ.

To cite The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism:
“The appearances of anything are the things we can see, touch, and taste. The substance of anything is what it is. The appearances in the Holy Eucharist are what looks like bread and wine. The substance is Our Lord Himself under these appearances.”

Now, can someone please explain to me why people with celiac disease cannot receive Holy Communion?
What they receive may look and taste and feel like wheat bread, but it IS NOT! It is the Body and Blood of Christ.

And does the ‘Amen’ we respond with to the words ’The Body of Christ’ when receiving Holy Communion not indicate our total belief that it is the Body of Christ we are receiving?

The following sentence is copied directly from the order website:
“Celiacs have to maintain strict gluten free diets to protect their health. Hence, the concern among Catholic celiac sufferers was how could they continue to receive the Body of Christ at Eucharist when it is made with wheat.”

Since when is the Body of Christ made of wheat? And has anyone ever heard of Christ harming someone? He loves us. That is the reason why He is with us in the Blessed Sacrament. He comes to us when we receive Holy Communion to help us and to heal us.
He will NOT cause allergic reactions.
He will NOT make anyone sick.
He will NOT harm anyone.
It is TRULY Jesus Christ we receive, Body and Soul!

Whether regular wheat hosts or low-gluten hosts are used for Consecration, what is the difference? After the Consecration they are all the same - the True Body and Blood of Christ.

I believe that we do NOT need low-gluten altar breads but rather solid catechism. I think I heard somewhere that a survey revealed that 70% of US Catholics do not really believe in the Real Presence. That’s where the problem is.

By the way, if you want to see what the low-gluten altar breads look like go to this website:

benedictinesisters.org/english/site.php?use=low_gluten

They are the most horrible looking hosts I have ever seen and I cannot imagine these ugly and sloppy looking things to be consecrated into the Body of Christ.
I actually ordered a free sample and they really look like this if not worse…
To me it’s a disgrace and an insult to Our Lord.

What I do know is that the devil is working really hard to destroy the Faith in the Real Presence. And I know that this is one of the ways he is trying to undermine our Faith. We must not let this happen.

Why not receive receive Our Eucharistic Lord and ask for healing? He has come to heal the sick in body, mind, and soul.

Is anyone out there who does suffer from celiac disease but has a strong enough Faith to still receive Holy Communion without relying on low-gluten hosts?

Recieve the precious blood only. Problem solved. Or receive the body in faith- the just shall live by faith.

 

[palmas85]

It can and HAS happened. A few years back my diocese had a very large multiparish mass with about 1500 in attendance. Unfortunately someone made ther very very very very bad decision to offer both species. THERE WAS GALLONS of the precious blood left over and I mean GALLONS. There wasd about 30 Knights of columbus there that were forced to consume the remaining precious blood. Keep in mind that this celebration was in a convention center so there was no piscina (sacrararium) nearby. some of the Kights drank 2-3 full glasses of the precious blood. Some of them got quite snockered from the whole ordeal. The Big mistake was in offering under the cup. the congregation of worship has insisted that only the host should be offered at large Masses.

If I remember correctly I was about 12 or so when I found out.

 

[manualman]

…THERE WAS GALLONS of the precious blood left over… there was no piscina (sacrararium) nearby.

Sounds like a good thing there wasn’t! I’d much rather hear about a few Knights needing a cab ride home than of gallons of the precious blood being dumped into the ground! A poor friend of mine did that once after assisting at mass in college and the poor priest almost had heart failure when he found out!
That sink is ONLY for washing sacred vessels AFTER they have been purified in the proper way to wash out any remnant. And I’ve got the emotionally scarred friend to prove it!

P.S. In my era, every alter boy knew that the wine in the sacristy fridge was unconsecrated - which made for a feeble, but widely used rationalization for sneaking some.

 

[Mommyof02green]

P.S. In my era, every alter boy knew that the wine in the sacristy fridge was unconsecrated - which made for a feeble, but widely used rationalization for sneaking some.

I’m sure they still do…

and I’m almost sure that there is one somewhere that is thinking of using the same rational to “try” to sneak some.

 

[palmas85]

I’m sure they still do…

and I’m almost sure that there is one somewhere that is thinking of using the same rational to “try” to sneak some.

Did that one too, a lot more than once I might add. We actually had quite a party before one of the other Altar Boys brothers weddings. Father was not happy with us.:tsktsk: I had to serve 6am daily Mass for a month after that particular incident…

 

[Mommyof02green]

Did that one too, a lot more than once I might add. We actually had quite a party before one of the other Altar Boys brothers weddings. Father was not happy with us.:tsktsk: I had to serve 6am daily Mass for a month after that particular incident…

:tsktsk: :tsktsk: indeed!

 

[LilyM]

There is nothing wrong with what is stated above.

However: The next question that needs be asked, wrt to OP, is: What causes a bad reaction for the sufferer of celiac-sprue disease? Ingesting something containing the substance of gluten? Or ingesting something bearing the accidents of gluten?

tee

There are plenty of things other than bread that celiacs can’t have (I know, I have a celiac brother-in-law). None of these other things bear either the appearance or the substance of bread. Yet they DO bear one accident of bread - gluten - which causes the reaction.

 

[LittleDeb]

As a celiac myself, I would like to see some research done in bringing back the early forms of wheat. One of the articles given to me was discussing all of the cross-breeding done to wheat to make it more resistent to bacteria so that it grows stronger. The question I asked was, “what do they think the body uses to break down nutrients?” Bacteria. I have often wondered if I would have reacted to the wheat in Christ’s time.

My case is considered mild. I can consume Holy Communion. I can also have spelt, which is a cousin of wheat (and also Scriptural!) Many, if not most celiacs cannot have spelt. Holy Communion is the only form of wheat I consume. I pray that my health will hold so that I can continue. But, if not I will accept it as I have accepted all of my health constraints during my lifetime. My DS inherited the genetic marker for celiac from me. I pray he does not develop the disease.

I think the case for the Real Presence is made stronger by the case of celiacs. Any other church would have just gone PC “all-inclusive” and abandoned wheat. It is necessary, so The Church, in Her inifinite wisdom accepts that it might exclude. I’m ok if that excludes me. I hope someone’s faith might be made stronger from it.

 

[gefiam]

I read that and I wanted to cry! Thank God, looks are not everything!

If Christ is truly present does it matter what it “looks” like?

You are right the devil is working really hard to destroy the Faith in the Real Presence. One way the devil does this is by having us worry about how the host looks. (In my opinion)

Of course anything that is valid matter will become Christ’s Body and Blood.

But I disagree that it does not matter what the hosts that are placed on the altar look like.

If we have guests come over we care about, we go through a lot of trouble to prepare a nice dinner and to decorate the table beautifully and will probably use our Sunday dishes.

Why would we then be careless in regards to what we offer at Holy Mass especially if we are fully aware of what it will become?

For centuries altar breads were made by hand exclusively by contemplative nuns. It took about a week from mixing the flour and water to the point where the hosts were ready to be packaged and sent to the parishes. Every task performed during this week was accompanied by contemplation and prayer.

Before the hosts were packaged, the nuns would inspect every single host and the ones with the slightest flaw were discarded.

The Byzantine Catholics are still doing this today. Their altar breads are made by hand and from scratch with lots of prayer and fasting. Before the breads are used for Holy Mass they are inspected and if there is the slightest fault with them, e.g. an air hole or a water streak, they are not used.

I have actually seen picture documentation of the entire processes for both, the eastern and western rite, of our Catholic Church.

Many of the Saints, to name a few St. Padre Pio, St. Philip Neri, St. John Vianney, St. Alphonsus, have been extremely picky when it came to selecting hosts for the Consecration.
I even know Holy Priests today who are very selective in regards to the altar breads and will use only the best for Consecration.

Obviously, after Consecration it is Christ no matter what the host used looks like.
But out of respect for Our Lord we have to make sure that only the best is used. Only the best is good enough for Him.
After all this little piece of bread will become His Body and Blood. How can we say it doesn’t matter what the bread looks like as long as it meets the minimum requirements for valid matter?

Even in the Old Testament the holocaust offerings had to be unblemished. Not any animal would do - it had to be unblemished.

Unfortunately in the Roman Rite we have lost much of the reverence and awe for the Blessed Sacrament and the Mystery of Faith that we proclaim at every Mass.

It is nice to see how much attention this post got and the genuine interest and care for the Blessed Sacrament as well as the sincere faith all of you have expressed.

I pray for all of us that our love, and reverence for Our Lord, especially in the Most Blessed Sacrament, continues to increase.

I wish everyone a Blessed and Grace-filled new year!

 

[Brendan]

The Real Presence remain only as long as the Accidents of bread and wine remain.

As those accidents leave the species revert to their constituent elements (which makes perfect sense, we certainly don’t pee out the Blood of Christ a few hours after Mass).

The species of bread revert to their constituent substances (starches, proteins and yes, gluten) after the accidents of bread on longer appear.

And those resulting substances CAN harm a celiac.

 

[maryjk]

I think the case for the Real Presence is made stronger by the case of celiacs. Any other church would have just gone PC “all-inclusive” and abandoned wheat. It is necessary, so The Church, in Her inifinite wisdom accepts that it might exclude. I’m ok if that excludes me. I hope someone’s faith might be made stronger from it.

Well said.
Many churches have gone “all-inclusive” with rice and have abandoned the wheat. Almost every Gluten Free food site has gluten free hosts. But always say, not for use for Catholics.

 

[celiacmom]

I have a relative that has Celiac Disease, and it is my understand that the disease effect people in different ways. Some people can tolerate really small, small amounts of gluten. Others have to be totally, 100% gluten free. It’s like the reaction level is different to different people.

Similar to people that have allergies to animals. Some can be around the animals but only for short periods of times, others have to stay totally 100% away… Or at least that is what has been explained to me.

So for some having a host that is 99.9% Gluten Free is just fine, but for others it’s not! (That’s why my post said it’s safe for several people with Celiac Disease)

The only why to have a host that is 100% safe for ALL people that suffer from Celiac Disease would to have a host that is made with rice. However that will never happen:

Canon 924:2 — The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

It is my understanding that that is something that cannot change, because at the last supper Christ used a wheat bread. So we must use a wheat bread to have a “valid” communion.

 

[celiacmom]

I have a relative that has Celiac Disease, and it is my understand that the disease effect people in different ways. Some people can tolerate really small, small amounts of gluten. Others have to be totally, 100% gluten free. It’s like the reaction level is different to different people.

Similar to people that have allergies to animals. Some can be around the animals but only for short periods of times, others have to stay totally 100% away… Or at least that is what has been explained to me.

So for some having a host that is 99.9% Gluten Free is just fine, but for others it’s not! (That’s why my post said it’s safe for several people with Celiac Disease)

The only why to have a host that is 100% safe for ALL people that suffer from Celiac Disease would to have a host that is made with rice. However that will never happen:

Canon 924:2 — The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

It is my understanding that that is something that cannot change, because at the last supper Christ used a wheat bread. So we must use a wheat bread to have a “valid” communion.

For those with Celiac disease, the inside of the body is reacting to gluten, whether or not the person ‘feels’ it. Celiac disease is not an allergy, it is an intolerance. This means that the body attacks itself at any presence of gluten (even .01%). Every time gluten is ingested, the lining of the small intestine will be damaged. That takes time to heal, and until it does, that person will not absorb particular nutrients that are absorbed in that area. And that consistent damage can lead to rare cancer and a whole array of associated problems. It is not o.k. to ingest a little. 99.9% gluten free is not fine for any celiac…period.
Is this what Christ wants a Celiac to do, constantly hurt themselves to prove the strength of their faith?

 

[Alexius]

Brendan: The Real Presence remain only as long as the Accidents of bread and wine remain.

As those accidents leave the species revert to their constituent elements (which makes perfect sense, we certainly don’t pee out the Blood of Christ a few hours after Mass).

The species of bread revert to their constituent substances (starches, proteins and yes, gluten) after the accidents of bread on longer appear.

And those resulting substances CAN harm a celiac.

---

:whacky: The unfortunate result of Scholastic enterprise: What happened to the Sacred Mystery of the Eucharist? Must everything in the west be pinned to a board and examined? Can’t you be content like the east is with the truth of the Eucharist? Is it for us to know the mind of God on everything the Church does?:banghead:

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Alexius]

BTW, welcome to the forum celiacmom! Why don’t you introduce yourself down by the Water Cooler?

Enjoy the forum - it’s a great place…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[maryjk]

Celiac disease is not an allergy, it is an intolerance. This means that the body attacks itself at any presence of gluten (even .01%). Every time gluten is ingested, the lining of the small intestine will be damaged. That takes time to heal, and until it does, that person will not absorb particular nutrients that are absorbed in that area. And that consistent damage can lead to rare cancer and a whole array of associated problems. It is not o.k. to ingest a little. 99.9% gluten free is not fine for any celiac…period.
Is this what Christ wants a Celiac to do, constantly hurt themselves to prove the strength of their faith?

True it is not an allergy. Although many of us will tell someone that we are “allergic” to wheat, to help explain why we are so careful.

But is in more than just an intolerance. It is an autoimmune disease. In an autoimmune disease, the body attacks itself. In Celiac Disease, the body damages or destroys the villi in the small intestine.

Each time a person with Celiac has a “hit” of gluten, there is a response in the small intestine. That inflammatory response will never fade and the intestine will never heal. It doesn’t matter how small that “hit” may be. I explain it that if I have a crumb of bread, I may as well eat the whole loaf. Now, I most likely will get gluten in various ways. But my goal is no detectable amount of gluten.