Low gluten challenges the Real Presence

[Brendan]

---

:whacky: The unfortunate result of Scholastic enterprise: What happened to the Sacred Mystery of the Eucharist? Must everything in the west be pinned to a board and examined? Can’t you be content like the east is with the truth of the Eucharist? Is it for us to know the mind of God on everything the Church does?:banghead:

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

It is for us to know all that God gives us Reason to know.

We are certainly content with the Mystery of the Eucharist. And a Mystery is something of which all can never be known by mortal men.

But does the fact that we will never know ALL about the Eucharist mean that we should not ponder all that God has revealed about it?

 

[peahen1959]

I am new here and posted a question about not being able to recieve communion just this morning. I can not take either the body or the blood. I have colon ulcers along with celiac disease and taking the body and blood of Christ causes serious problems.
Unless you have these problems, you could never know the pain that even the smallest amount of wheat or alcohol can cause.
It is easy to judge others when you have not “Walked in their shoes” My sole see’s the Body and Blood of Christ at communion, but my body just see’s wheat and alcohol and reacts accordingly.
Please show compassion to your brothers and sisters with these problems! As I said in my question, " I feel very empty inside because I can not recieve communion."

GOD bless and keep you all!
Your sister in Jesus Christ
peahen1959

 

[palmas85]

Jesus blasted the fig tree, drove money changers out of the Temple and will damn anyone who eats the Body and Blood unworthily. He certainly can and will hurt people!

What changes in the Consecration is the substance - which is not necessarily a perceptible physical quality or property of the bread and wine.

Imagine, if you will, that I could make a highly sophisticated robot-like creature - engineered in all respects to simulate a cat. It looks, sounds, smells, behaves and in perhaps 99% of all visible and perceptible respects is exactly like a cat. I’ll call it cat-bot.

Cat-bot can in fact be so well engineered and so catlike that people and other cats react to it in exactly the same way that they would a real cat. Those who are allergic to it may end up getting allergic to the smell or fur of cat-bot. Other cats may attempt to mate with cat-bot. That’s how catlike cat-bot can be.

No matter how sophisticated and lifelike the engineering got, however, cat-bot would still nonetheless never BE a cat, but a cat-bot. It is lacking some ‘substance’ or ‘essence’ or property that makes it a real, natural, live, cat.

This is what happens with transubstantiation. It’s possible that we’ll never know exactly what perceptible or imperceptible property of the bread and wine changes. We do know that just about every physical property that bread and wine possesses still exist in the Body and Blood as well.

It has nothing really to do with our faith or lack thereof. If you want proof of the Real Presence it’s in the Eucharistic Miracles such as Lanciano - where the Body and Blood turned into REAL flesh and blood in order to demonstrate the Real Presence to the unbelieving.

Not in the fact that people can’t get drunk or react to the gluten. They can and do.

If I’m reading this correctly then you seem to be a follower of Luther in this regard. He believed that while the Bread and Wine became the Body and Blood of Christ it also retained the reality of being bread and wine. They co-existed as it were. Also, he didn’t believe that the Body and Blood of Christ remained after the end of Mass so there was no reservation of the Host.

I was taught that to our senses the Host would remain bread and the Blood, remain wine. We being mortal are unable to perceive in any real sense exactly how the transformation occurs. And since our mind and senses could not comprehend the transformation , our bodies could not either, and would react as if the Host and Blood still was bread and wine. In fact, our bodies could not react in any other way to it, being limited as we are in the shell that we live.

But to imply that even a minute portion of either substance still remains is totally contrary to all established Catholic teaching…

I may have misread your post and if I did I aopologize. I have always found that you are very knowledgeable about matters of the faith.

 

[porthos11]

For those with Celiac disease, the inside of the body is reacting to gluten, whether or not the person ‘feels’ it. Celiac disease is not an allergy, it is an intolerance. This means that the body attacks itself at any presence of gluten (even .01%). Every time gluten is ingested, the lining of the small intestine will be damaged. That takes time to heal, and until it does, that person will not absorb particular nutrients that are absorbed in that area. And that consistent damage can lead to rare cancer and a whole array of associated problems. It is not o.k. to ingest a little. 99.9% gluten free is not fine for any celiac…period.
Is this what Christ wants a Celiac to do, constantly hurt themselves to prove the strength of their faith?

No, and in fact, the Church frowns on those who intentionally harm themselves in the name of piety, at least without the sound guidance of a spiritual director.

But it’s for cases like celiacs that Christ in his wisdom also offered Communion under a second species: that of wine. All a celiac needs to do is approach the priest, identify his condition, and tell him before Mass begins that he can only receive from the Cup. Surely any reasonable pastor will understand and make arrangements. If he refuses, then he’s not a reasonable pastor. One drop of the Precious Blood suffices.

It’s as simple as that. It’s not as if the Church is some kind of ogre that doesn’t care about the harmful disease many suffer from.

And for the even rarer case of Celiacs/Alcoholics, there’s mustum available by indult. One measly drop.

I see no reason for all the anger towards the Church when many alternatives are available.

 

[peahen1959]

I did not know what a hot topic this was when I asked a question. It has not been answered yet, but I replied to another one I found.
It breaks my heart to see Catholics attacking other Catholics.
I left part of your message in my answer.

If you really believe that your body will not react in a negative way to the host and wine that becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ, Why don’t you try having a priest transform a host with poison in it and wine with poison in it. Is your faith that strong?
This may seem absurd, but that is axactly what you are saying every person with a gluten intollerance or wine intollerance should do, not once, but every time they take communion.
I did not know what was happening to me or why I would be in such great pain until I found out what was causing my problem.
I say once again.
We as Catholics should show compassion to one another.
My soul see’s Christ in the communion, but my body just see’s wheat and wine.
your sister in Christ.
peahen1959

What do we Catholics believe?
We believe that the bread and wine at the words of Consecration change into the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ and only the appearance of bread and wine remains while the substance has changed entirely into the Body and Blood of Christ.

To cite The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism:
“The appearances of anything are the things we can see, touch, and taste. The substance of anything is what it is. The appearances in the Holy Eucharist are what looks like bread and wine. The substance is Our Lord Himself under these appearances.”

Now, can someone please explain to me why people with celiac disease cannot receive Holy Communion?
What they receive may look and taste and feel like wheat bread, but it IS NOT! It is the Body and Blood of Christ.

And does the ‘Amen’ we respond with to the words ’The Body of Christ’ when receiving Holy Communion not indicate our total belief that it is the Body of Christ we are receiving?

The following sentence is copied directly from the order website:
“Celiacs have to maintain strict gluten free diets to protect their health. Hence, the concern among Catholic celiac sufferers was how could they continue to receive the Body of Christ at Eucharist when it is made with wheat.”

Since when is the Body of Christ made of wheat? And has anyone ever heard of Christ harming someone? He loves us. That is the reason why He is with us in the Blessed Sacrament. He comes to us when we receive Holy Communion to help us and to heal us.
He will NOT cause allergic reactions.
He will NOT make anyone sick.
He will NOT harm anyone.
It is TRULY Jesus Christ we receive, Body and Soul!

Whether regular wheat hosts or low-gluten hosts are used for Consecration, what is the difference? After the Consecration they are all the same - the True Body and Blood of Christ.

I believe that we do NOT need low-gluten altar breads but rather solid catechism. I think I heard somewhere that a survey revealed that 70% of US Catholics do not really believe in the Real Presence. That’s where the problem is.

By the way, if you want to see what the low-gluten altar breads look like go to this website:

benedictinesisters.org/english/site.php?use=low_gluten

They are the most horrible looking hosts I have ever seen and I cannot imagine these ugly and sloppy looking things to be consecrated into the Body of Christ.
I actually ordered a free sample and they really look like this if not worse…
To me it’s a disgrace and an insult to Our Lord.

What I do know is that the devil is working really hard to destroy the Faith in the Real Presence. And I know that this is one of the ways he is trying to undermine our Faith. We must not let this happen.

Why not receive receive Our Eucharistic Lord and ask for healing? He has come to heal the sick in body, mind, and soul.

Is anyone out there who does suffer from celiac disease but has a strong enough Faith to still receive Holy Communion without relying on low-gluten hosts?

 

[palmas85]

I did not know what a hot topic this was when I asked a question. It has not been answered yet, but I replied to another one I found.
It breaks my heart to see Catholics attacking other Catholics.
I left part of your message in my answer.

If you really believe that your body will not react in a negative way to the host and wine that becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ, Why don’t you try having a priest transform a host with poison in it and wine with poison in it. Is your faith that strong?
This may seem absurd, but that is axactly what you are saying every person with a gluten intollerance or wine intollerance should do, not once, but every time they take communion.
I did not know what was happening to me or why I would be in such great pain until I found out what was causing my problem.
I say once again.
We as Catholics should show compassion to one another.
My soul see’s Christ in the communion, but my body just see’s wheat and wine.
your sister in Christ.
peahen1959

What do we Catholics believe?
We believe that the bread and wine at the words of Consecration change into the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ and only the appearance of bread and wine remains while the substance has changed entirely into the Body and Blood of Christ.

To cite The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism:
“The appearances of anything are the things we can see, touch, and taste. The substance of anything is what it is. The appearances in the Holy Eucharist are what looks like bread and wine. The substance is Our Lord Himself under these appearances.”

Now, can someone please explain to me why people with celiac disease cannot receive Holy Communion?
What they receive may look and taste and feel like wheat bread, but it IS NOT! It is the Body and Blood of Christ.

And does the ‘Amen’ we respond with to the words ’The Body of Christ’ when receiving Holy Communion not indicate our total belief that it is the Body of Christ we are receiving?

The following sentence is copied directly from the order website:
“Celiacs have to maintain strict gluten free diets to protect their health. Hence, the concern among Catholic celiac sufferers was how could they continue to receive the Body of Christ at Eucharist when it is made with wheat.”

Since when is the Body of Christ made of wheat? And has anyone ever heard of Christ harming someone? He loves us. That is the reason why He is with us in the Blessed Sacrament. He comes to us when we receive Holy Communion to help us and to heal us.
He will NOT cause allergic reactions.
He will NOT make anyone sick.
He will NOT harm anyone.
It is TRULY Jesus Christ we receive, Body and Soul!

Whether regular wheat hosts or low-gluten hosts are used for Consecration, what is the difference? After the Consecration they are all the same - the True Body and Blood of Christ.

I believe that we do NOT need low-gluten altar breads but rather solid catechism. I think I heard somewhere that a survey revealed that 70% of US Catholics do not really believe in the Real Presence. That’s where the problem is.

By the way, if you want to see what the low-gluten altar breads look like go to this website:

benedictinesisters.org/english/site.php?use=low_gluten

They are the most horrible looking hosts I have ever seen and I cannot imagine these ugly and sloppy looking things to be consecrated into the Body of Christ.
I actually ordered a free sample and they really look like this if not worse…
To me it’s a disgrace and an insult to Our Lord.

What I do know is that the devil is working really hard to destroy the Faith in the Real Presence. And I know that this is one of the ways he is trying to undermine our Faith. We must not let this happen.

Why not receive receive Our Eucharistic Lord and ask for healing? He has come to heal the sick in body, mind, and soul.

Is anyone out there who does suffer from celiac disease but has a strong enough Faith to still receive Holy Communion without relying on low-gluten hosts?

I’m afraid that you are wrong on this one my friend. Very very wrong.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Leaving aside the faith of the celiac sufferer who partakes of the Eucharist, I would say that for him to do so would do injury to the faith of others.

Transformational Eucharistic miracles aside, it is an act of *faith *to assent to the Real Presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. If there is an experimental procedure to determine that a putative piece of bread has been consecrated as the Eucharist (*viz *feed it to a celiac and look for a reaction), what need is there for faith?

:twocents:
tee

 

[Faith1960]

Well for the same reason that you can get sick from drinking from the common cup, you can probably have an allergic reaction to the bread. I don’t drink from the cup since I don’t feel comfortable drinking from a common cup and it is not necessary anyways. Likewise, a person allergic to the bread can drink from the cup and it would be the same thing.

I’m glad to read this. My cousin thinks it’s “BIZARRE” that I don’t drink from the Cup (I did once) because I fear getting sick. She insists it’s impossible.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

**See Karl Keating’s E-Letter of January 16 2007

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_070116.asp**

 

[Moneo]

Well, I came late to this conversation and Marian beat me to the punch with the reference to Karl’s e-letter!

The problem that folks here are wrestling with is that they don’t understand what the “substance” of a thing is. Substance is a very precise philosophical term that comes from Greek philosophy.

I won’t go into a long post here because Karl does it marvellously and better than I probably could at the moment, but the basic problem is that while the substance of a thing is normally manifested in its appearances, this is simply not so in the case of the Eucharist. It is the one instance that we know of where all of the component elements of the bread and wine retain their appearances intact (along with their naturally occurring effects such as gluten’s action on the intestine of a celiac or wine’s inebriating effects–the effects, because they are part of the material universal, are *appearances *as well) while the substance ceases to be.

It’s a very fine philosophical point, and it seems insane to people who have no faith or who do not understand Aristotle, but it would be like handing a tulip to someone and insisting that they believe it has become a a gold bar. The appearances (accidents) say otherwise and there is no evidence to the contrary.

 

[Catholic29]

I believe this link will answer ALOT of questions in this thread:

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/celiasprue.shtml :dancing:

 

[Catholic29]

And this one especially:

http://www.catholicceliacs.org/

 

[rwoehmke]

Our problem lies in the use of the word “substance.” Substance has more than a single meaning. In metaphysics it has a different meaning than it has in the physical sciences. The substance of the bread and wine when using the term in the latter sense is not changed by transubstantiation. The substance as defined in the metaphysics of St. Thomas does change. Science can only study substances that exist physically, that is why the Church teaches that the bread and wine undergo a substantial change and not a physical change as one might observe using the methods of science. The substance of the host and the wine become the body blood soul and divinity of the Glorified Christ and not the body and blood of Christ as it existed before his resurrection. It can be a difficult teaching for those of no Faith.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I have been reading much about the low-gluten host issue for people suffering from celiac disease. Much is being said about the effects gluten has on these peoples’ health and how important it is for them to avoid all gluten and stick to gluten-free diets. And it makes sense in regards to an everyday diet, i.e. food we consume during regular meals.

In context with the Catholic Faith I found many references to Holy Communion stating that celiac disease prevents people from receiving the Blessed Sacrament. I even found a website where altar breads with an extremely low gluten level can be ordered. According to the website where they can be ordered they have been approved by the Office of the Secretariat for the Liturgy of the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops for “use in the diocese of the United States with appropriate permission”.

What is a puzzlement to is that nowhere have I found reference to ‘Faith in the Real Presence‘.

What do we Catholics believe?
We believe that the bread and wine at the words of Consecration change into the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ and only the appearance of bread and wine remains while the substance has changed entirely into the Body and Blood of Christ.

To cite The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism:
“The appearances of anything are the things we can see, touch, and taste. The substance of anything is what it is. The appearances in the Holy Eucharist are what looks like bread and wine. The substance is Our Lord Himself under these appearances.”

Now, can someone please explain to me why people with celiac disease cannot receive Holy Communion?
What they receive may look and taste and feel like wheat bread, but it IS NOT! It is the Body and Blood of Christ.

Humans are made of *chemicals *- it does not follow, and is not the case, that being made of chemicals is all that there is to being a human. For human beings are more than the sum of their parts.​

The same applies to the Bl. Sac. - it is made of things X, Y, & Z - but is more than the things it is made of. It is made of matter: & that matter, is perceptible to the senses or to extensions of them (such as electron microscopes, which are extensions of the eyes). So though it is made of bread, it is not reducible to bread. Because it is “Eucharisticized”, not by its material ingedients, but by the action of the Holy Spirit Who converts the actuality-which-is-bread into the actuality which is the Body of Christ. The matter is unchanged - the reality which “stands under” it, which substat, is converted into a different reality.

The Divine Presence is not perceptible - it has nothing in common with matter, so it is not in any way subject to empirical verification or analysis. No microscope, however powerful, could possibly sense it. No one in their senses measures goodness in shillings - the two things belong to different modes of being. So it is with God, and matter. God can make created things to serve His Will - man cannot make God serve his; so God can take flesh and die, but man cannot put on Godhead: he can be given a share in what is God’s, but cannot cease to be a creature.

Things are always “veiled” by their accidents: no one has seen the reality of a cat - a cat-in-itself - & never will: all we can know through our senses is that-by-which-the cat-is-made-known-to-us; which is, the activity by which its cathood & its individuality as “this cat” is manifested. Only God can see a cat: we know cats by their effects upon the senses, & by our concepts about them (which are the result of knowledge gained through the senses). ##

And does the ‘Amen’ we respond with to the words ’The Body of Christ’ when receiving Holy Communion not indicate our total belief that it is the Body of Christ we are receiving?

Of course - but the bishops probably know more about the details of Eucharistic theology than their lay critics ​

The following sentence is copied directly from the order website:
“Celiacs have to maintain strict gluten free diets to protect their health. Hence, the concern among Catholic celiac sufferers was how could they continue to receive the Body of Christ at Eucharist when it is made with wheat.”

…continued…]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Since when is the Body of Christ made of wheat?

In the West, until the 9th century, IIRC - it has not always been unleavened. In the East, it is leavened: & the Orthodox Liturgy is as valid as any High Mass in St. Peter’s. Whether it is leavened or not, is not a point of doctrine, but a practice of custom​

And has anyone ever heard of Christ harming someone? He loves us. That is the reason why He is with us in the Blessed Sacrament. He comes to us when we receive Holy Communion to help us and to heal us.
He will NOT cause allergic reactions.
He will NOT make anyone sick.
He will NOT harm anyone.
It is TRULY Jesus Christ we receive, Body and Soul!

It is the material of the Eucharist, the accidents, that cause the problem. The Host is converted - the gluten which is one of its accidents, is not.​

Which is how it is possible for a Host to be poisoned. The poison is incidental to the Host, like the gluten; so it can kill (& has). ##

Whether regular wheat hosts or low-gluten hosts are used for Consecration, what is the difference? After the Consecration they are all the same - the True Body and Blood of Christ.

The difference is, that (presumably) there is less danger of coeliac poisoning if less gluten is used, rather than more. The Host is the B & B, etc. - the material manifestations of the Eucharistic Gifts which become the B &B remain after the Consecration, & are unchanged by it: those manifestations are not the B & B, nor are they parts in it, as the B & B is without material parts. So the gluten, and the effects that belong to its nature, remain.​

I believe that we do NOT need low-gluten altar breads but rather solid catechism. I think I heard somewhere that a survey revealed that 70% of US Catholics do not really believe in the Real Presence. That’s where the problem is.

No - their beliefs do not affect the toxicity of the materials of a Host.​

By the way, if you want to see what the low-gluten altar breads look like go to this website:

benedictinesisters.org/english/site.php?use=low_gluten

They are the most horrible looking hosts I have ever seen and I cannot imagine these ugly and sloppy looking things to be consecrated into the Body of Christ.
I actually ordered a free sample and they really look like this if not worse…
To me it’s a disgrace and an insult to Our Lord.

Jesus probably looked pretty ghastly once He had been on the Cross a while. If looks mattered, we would all be sunk.​

What I do know is that the devil is working really hard to destroy the Faith in the Real Presence. And I know that this is one of the ways he is trying to undermine our Faith. We must not let this happen.

How do you *know *this ?​

Why not receive receive Our Eucharistic Lord and ask for healing? He has come to heal the sick in body, mind, and soul.

Don’t go *there…*bad idea - He didn’t heal St. Alphonsus Liguori of spinal curvature: there is no reason to think coeliac sufferers will be healed. Or is CCism for the healthy alone ?​

Is anyone out there who does suffer from celiac disease but has a strong enough Faith to still receive Holy Communion without relying on low-gluten hosts?