Low Mass Attendance in Saginaw

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BayCityRickL

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The recently installed Bishop Carlson had a diocesan wide meeting to consult with parishes about the problem of dropping Mass attendance. There was a 17% drop in attendance between 2000 and 2005.

The local Catholic paper said that the group gravitated towards evangelization as the tool to deal with the problem. The bishop seemed to refer the general problem back to the parishes, to examine the specific causes of decreasing attendance.

Are there any success stories out there in dealing with this problem? How has it been handled, to draw people back to active participation in the Church?
 
I’d recheck the figures, that seems as if 17% is a pretty big decline.

Some decline of course is to be expected in a shrinking and aging population like you have in Michigan. So many people have died, others have become disabled and no longer are able to make it to church.

I wonder if there have been church closings where a number of folks are unable to make it to the next parish, maybe a bus ministry could help attendance if that is the case.
 
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BayCityRickL:
The recently installed Bishop Carlson had a diocesan wide meeting to consult with parishes about the problem of dropping Mass attendance. There was a 17% drop in attendance between 2000 and 2005.

The local Catholic paper said that the group gravitated towards evangelization as the tool to deal with the problem. The bishop seemed to refer the general problem back to the parishes, to examine the specific causes of decreasing attendance.

Are there any success stories out there in dealing with this problem? How has it been handled, to draw people back to active participation in the Church?
I’m in Macomb county.
While the Diocese is beginning to close and cluster parishes, Ours is growing out of our building.
Did someone look into bringing things Historically Catholic back into the churches?? How orthodox/traditional are the churches in Saginaw?
 
It is probably a pre-cursor for justification of closing down the latin mass community.
 
My local church has 10 Masses on Sunday and they are all packed to overflowing so that people are standing at the side and even outside.
 
If it was, then there is your answer. THe damage done during his episcopate is finally statistically show its fruits. Carlson is a good man and will slowly shepherd the diocese back. I know there are some good parishes in that diocese but I have read some pretty scary things about that diocse over the years.
 
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thistle:
My local church has 10 Masses on Sunday and they are all packed to overflowing so that people are standing at the side and even outside.
We have 8.

It’s not because there are so many Catholics – it’s because the Diocese has not invested in plant, property or equipment for at least two generations in this city. “Just have more Masses…”
 
The other threads on the Saginaw Diocese subject, prior to Bishop Carlson’s appointment, clearly explain why the drop in attendance.
 
The reason why there is low Mass attendence is because in a diocese like Saginaw, people aren’t sure what it is to be Catholic anymore. In one parish they kneel, in another they stand; in one parish the eucharist is white, flat, and tasteless, in another in is puffy light brown and tastes like a cookie. In one parish father sits in a distinguishable presider’s chair, in the next he’s sitting with the people. The problem is that most Catholics don’t know the difference between being Catholic and protestant anymore because each church does it different, just like the protestants. The church needs to be CATHOLIC again.
 
I would hope someone would study and contrast the Catholic parishes which are rooted in solid basics/orthodoxy with those which are not. For example, how are the parishes doing that have abundant opportunity for confession?

Statistical data should be gathered on parishes to see if people are truly flocking to the more orthodox Catholic churches and leaving the progressive parishes. I believe there is a correlation. I see it in my own archdiocese of Detroit with what is taking place at St. Cyril & Methodius. For a parish that basically has no Catholics within its geographical boundaries, Assumption Grotto at between 700-800 families is also doing well. However, the more parishes that offer good orthodox Catholicism and worship will likely pull people from Grotto to parishes closer to home - a phenomenon seen with St. Cyril which does attract some Grotto-goers who live further out in the burbs.

Grotto offers the closest, purest form of Catholicism I can find. Cyril’s is further for me, and I like it, but prefer the larger, older church and beautiful grounds. But Cyrils is very solid in its orthodoxy and I believe that is why so many flock to that small parish causing it to burst at the seams. I just went there again for 6:00 am Mass this past Wednesday and it was quite full of people heading to work, but stopping in for Mass first. Most mornings I go to Grotto at 7, but some days I have meetings and cannot.

Drop in attendance has everything to do with lack of orthodoxy, homilies that only cover part of our Catholic faith (all love and mercy; no justice, sin, sacrifice, etc.). When pastors do not emphasize the Sacrament of Penance in their homilies and do not talk about the “Last Four Things: Death, Judgement, Heaven & Hell” - then why should people come to church. In fact, they don’t really need the Catholic Church because they are already hooked on private judgment about all things faith and morals.

:rolleyes:
 
FONT=Century Gothic]I totally agree with Diane.

I also think that churches need to be more available to the parishoners. More daily masses. An adoration chapel. Churches not locking (or having to lock) the doors immediately after Mass. Priests that are available, and not just for confession.

I also stongly believe that groups within a church can help build attendance. Adoration groups. Rosary groups. Senior groups. Volunteer groups. If you were to look at the website for Assumption Grotto (I attend another church on the other side of the city), they have like an outreach group that goes out into the neighboring community. I believe they also have a Rosary Group. They celebrate feast days (in a big way). The grotto is absolutely lovey and they have a wonderful display of the Stations of the Cross on the property.

Having a strong support staff (even volunteers) helps tremendously. Several churches in my area never have returned phone calls concerning various questions about their churches (RCIA courses, religious classes, viewings of the Blessed Sacrament, etc.). If someone cannot even return a phone call, how available will they be for your other needs??

Check out some of the websites for Assumption Grotto, Divine Child, St Josephat(?). That can be a great introduction on how some of these churches are drawing people to their Masses.Good Luck!
 
Morning Glory:
I totally agree with Diane.

I also think that churches need to be more available to the parishoners. More daily masses. An adoration chapel. Churches not locking (or having to lock) the doors immediately after Mass. Priests that are available, and not just for confession.

I also stongly believe that groups within a church can help build attendance. Adoration groups. Rosary groups. Senior groups. Volunteer groups. If you were to look at the website for Assumption Grotto (I attend another church on the other side of the city), they have like an outreach group that goes out into the neighboring community. I believe they also have a Rosary Group. They celebrate feast days (in a big way). The grotto is absolutely lovey and they have a wonderful display of the Stations of the Cross on the property.
The group which goes out into the surrounding neighborhood is the Legion of Mary. I would consider them the Rosary group. There are several other apostolates and groups working among parishioners of Grotto, including but not limited to:

Opus Sanctorum Angelorum

Legion of Mary

Daughters of Isabella (newly formed - women’s comparable to Knights of Columbus)

St. Monica Sodality

Secular Carmelite Community - Assumption of the BVM

One thing I noticed is that priestly involvement matters. While the priests have their personal time and hobbies or interests, they are always available. You won’t hear, “well, that’s my tee time” if you were to call. They are truly dedicated. The pastor is teaching an adult catechism right now, going in depth in into Catholic teaching. He does this every Monday night and it started in October and runs through spring. He takes pride in teaching catechism and feels it is his pastoral responsibility to help grow the faith in a healthy and knowledgeable way. People packed in the lounge for it. He was expecting only 10-12 to show up and thought he could hold it in the rectory basement, but about 30 showed up. A few are exploring the Catholic faith and some are seeking confirmation. The rest are simply wanting to enrich their knowledge of the faith and it includes people from other parishes who heard about it and stopped in. He did not charge for the class, other than for the book, which was like $12.95. Now, he could be chilling out watching TV on Mondays or tending to parish affairs, but he gives us this time and we are very greatful.

Our “Days of Recollection” are well attended too and I would encourage any parish to have them, even if it is one of the parish priests that offers it. In our case, we have the Canons of the Holy Cross who work on the grounds of Grotto and 3-4 times yearly they will give these lectures. It starts with noon Mass, goes into Benediction which the parish has after every Sunday noon Mass. Then everyone heads to the lounge for usually two lectures which end around 3:30-4:00. We then head to the Church for a little adoration, confession opportunity, and then Benediction again which closes the exposition that was taking place.

These kinds of things are needed in parishes and I believe would not only draw people, but would raise their knowledge about the faith. Topics we have had since I’ve been there included the Consecration to Jesus through Mary, and a segment on the Eucharist. Of course, the Canons being so closely aligned with Opus Angelorum (Work of the Holy Angels), they always educate us on the role of the angels. They do not charge for these “Days of Recollection”. Rather, they pass a bucket and people donate what they can.
 
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8640:
The reason why there is low Mass attendence is because in a diocese like Saginaw, people aren’t sure what it is to be Catholic anymore. In one parish they kneel, in another they stand; in one parish the eucharist is white, flat, and tasteless, in another in is puffy light brown and tastes like a cookie. In one parish father sits in a distinguishable presider’s chair, in the next he’s sitting with the people. The problem is that most Catholics don’t know the difference between being Catholic and protestant anymore because each church does it different, just like the protestants. The church needs to be CATHOLIC again.
I think you are probably right.
 
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Diane:
Statistical data should be gathered on parishes to see if people are truly flocking to the more orthodox Catholic churches and leaving the progressive parishes. I believe there is a correlation. I see it in my own archdiocese of Detroit with what is taking place at St. Cyril & Methodius. For a parish that basically has no Catholics within its geographical boundaries, Assumption Grotto at between 700-800 families is also doing well.

Grotto offers the closest, purest form of Catholicism I can find. Cyril’s is further for me, and I like it, but prefer the larger, older church and beautiful grounds.
I’m a bit surprised that there are only 700 families in this parish. It would also tell a different story if all 700 came to Mass on Sunday, as would show in the number of offertory envelopes and a census count at the door on an average Sunday.

I lived in the east side of Detroit for many years, and visited a number of parishes. If there are a couple dozen discontents from each of these numerous parishes who transfer there , I would expect that this *would *become a large congregation, and that is truly commendable for the pastor. Whereas, if each of these other parishes were to consistently lose a third or half of their people who transferred to Grotto, it would tell a far different story. I don’t believe this is happening.

But I agree that there may be a reduction in people going to Mass and the sacraments, and that is happening universally, for multiple reasons that cannot be p(name removed by moderator)ointed to solely to orthodoxy.

IMO, this enthusiasm (the bolded sentence) slants all of the other parishes whose members do not leave, in a rather unfavorable light, as though the only orthodox parish is Assumption Grotto, and the others need to do some homework to measure up. I have exchanged notes with Diane about the many spiritual activities that take place there, and it was inspiring to read about them. To be honest, though, I loved my parish when I lived in that area, and we had just as many wonderful programs and pastors. It just hurts a little to see other parishes put in this comparative light. We are all Catholics united in Christ.

Carole
 
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Joysong:
I’m a bit surprised that there are only 700 families in this parish. It would also tell a different story if all 700 came to Mass on Sunday, as would show in the number of offertory envelopes and a census count at the door on an average Sunday.

I lived in the east side of Detroit for many years, and visited a number of parishes. If there are a couple dozen discontents from each of these numerous parishes who transfer there , I would expect that this *would *become a large congregation, and that is truly commendable for the pastor. Whereas, if each of these other parishes were to consistently lose a third or half of their people who transferred to Grotto, it would tell a far different story. I don’t believe this is happening.

IMO, this enthusiasm (the bolded sentence) slants all of the other parishes whose members do not leave, in a rather unfavorable light, as though the only orthodox parish is Assumption Grotto, and the others need to do some homework to measure up.
When I say “purest form” I mean we get 110% of what we are suppose to get. I was in as many as 7-8 different contemporary parishes in the surrounding area before finding Grotto and I can tell you that the fullness of the message just isn’t there. You would think sin and hell were non-existent. The atmosphere was all resurrection and no cross in those parishes. A few priests here and there seemed somewhat orthodox in their approach to doctrine, but not all. This does not mean they are not good people. Rather, they were brainwashed in the seminary into thinking that if they talked about sin they may drive more people away. To the contrary - the people actually come when the truth is taught.

Also, what needs to be kept in mind is the neighborhood in which Grotto resides. It is a very, very rough and unsafe neighborhood (McNichols and Gratiot). Many people I know want to go there, but are afraid to make the drive. So, when St. Cyril, which is also complete in its doctrine, and very pure in the same way, people flock to her. I see many, many people who also go to Grotto when they can, attending St. Cyrils because it is closer to home for them.

And, quite frankly, the parish (St. Cyril & Methodius) is absolutely beautiful and small. My uncle, who goes to Mass there loves this feature and for this reason he prefers St. C & M over Grotto (he doesn’t like really big buildings, instead gravitating towards the close, small and comfy feeling of St. C & M).

I’m absolutely convinced that St. Cyril & Meth could probably have a church twice as big and still pack people in and fill up the pews. She is probably finding parishioners on a regular basis who are sick and tired of only getting the “feel good” part of the doctrine at the expense of the rest. What causes this when there are parishes all over that neck of the woods just a few miles apart from each other, if not the good, well-rounded, and complete doctrine?

Also, families at Grotto: Most, not all, but most are very, very large families. For this reason, we may only be 700-800 families, but those families carry much volume. This means 5 kids and up for those couples capable and there are many examples of families as large as 10, 12, and in one case 18!!! We have more than one family where white couples have adopted children of color. And, you wouldn’t believe how well behaved, how decently dressed, and how happy all of these large families are. I’m sure many of these kids don’t have X-box sitting at home, but then again, I see much time being spent together at church functions. They aren’t wearing designer cloths and they don’t don cell-phones, baggy pants, or holes in their clothes. Most of all, I have NEVER seen a greater collection of kids, including teenagers who have the finest manners and respect for adults. These kids don’t have to be told to pitch in and help - they just do it and give the impression of wanting to please. These people surely pinch pennies to get by, but they resonded to the pastor when he called upon them to “be open to life.” They were, and abundantly so. I’ve never seen children so well behaved in Church as they are in this parish.

One more aspect that I was referring to when I said “pure” is the liturgy. You WILL NOT find a single example of even suspected or remote liturgical abuse in either Grotto or St. Cyril & Methodius. These liturgies are very, very pure to the intent of Vatican II. Grotto goes the extra step with an ad orientem posture while St. C & M uses versus populum. Both are valid. St. C & M may exchange a sign of peace, Grotto chooses not to. Both are valid options.
 
But I agree that there may be a reduction in people going to Mass and the sacraments, and that is happening universally, for multiple reasons that cannot be p(name removed by moderator)ointed to solely to orthodoxy.

You sound like you have a few ideas, please share them with us. The whole point of this thread is not Grotto and C+M but lack of church attendence. I am eager to hear some of your ideas.
 
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Joysong:
But I agree that there may be a reduction in people going to Mass and the sacraments, and that is happening universally, for multiple reasons that cannot be p(name removed by moderator)ointed to solely to orthodoxy.
I was wondering what you thought those reasons are. You seem to have some ideas and considering that this page is not about Grotto or C+M and is about declining Mass attendence I am eager to hear what you have to say.
 
17% drop is the correct value, it has been published many times.

That is why there was a special meeting, which in fact was in the works for some time.

The attendance figure is about 46,000 out of 122,000 “Catholics” attending Mass. This is about the same for Saginaw as the 33% nationwide figure that was recently cited at the U.S.C.C.B meeting.

The nationwide drop in Mass attendance was cited before Bishop Carlson arrived as THE reason for the drop – in other words, absence just ‘happens’ and it’s happening in Saginaw.

Of course, it meant to duck responsibility. The 17% drop is matched in my own former parish, under the leadership of the same priest. My observation is that this priest is doing what a lot of other priests are doing nationwide, and he is reaping the results right in his own parish. The evidence of what he is doing (actually what he is not doing) is right there under his nose.
 
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BayCityRickL:
My observation is that this priest is doing what a lot of other priests are doing nationwide, and he is reaping the results right in his own parish. The evidence of what he is doing (actually what he is not doing) is right there under his nose.
Rick,

Are your notions the same as mine, that part of that “not doing” is not conveying the fullness of the faith, as opposed to sticking to things people are not discomforted with hearing?

Back in May when I converted fully back to God (cradle Catholic sucked in by the world), I was moved to write a letter to Pope Benedict to thank Him for speaking about the “dictatorship of relativism”. He cast a net of admonition and he caught me in it. That propelled me into the deepest personal conversion I have ever gone through. It eventually led me to Grotto where more straight talk took place and cemented my relationship with God. In the letter I wrote in part:

Some Catholics fall away purposely and sadly. They are not seen in Church pews. Others, like me, slip away quietly without even realizing it, all the while sitting in a pew.

I now understand there is only one true North and it does not move to suit a direction in which we wish to go.

Rather than following statically based elements of simple truth, or true North, I was following those that were dynamic and complex, suiting my desires. This complexity leveraged excuses and the damage of such practice is now visible to me. I had shattered my compass all on my own.

In all his charisma, Pope John Paul the Great set the stage and got the world looking to Rome, and now you, Pope Benedict, look out to the world and the faithful are attentive. As the great Moses led our Jewish brothers and sisters out of slavery, I believe you, the successor of Peter, will help us to see the bondage of our immorality and the oppression of our sins. This is the key that unlocks the chains of human suffering the world over. I believe it is time for us to hear you, to learn, and to pray for understanding. Some will listen and they will hear the truth with all the simplicity intended by our Lord Jesus Christ. They will see the Papacy and the Magisterium as the gifts that they are, not as burdens. Others will allow complexity and pride to block the voice of God within their hearts and they will not know that the voice they hear is their own. They will not understand that obedience is an act – not of submission but, of freedom. Many will believe that unification is not possible within our Church not seeing that it is through conversion back to absolute truths and Catholic doctrine that enables it. While a few life-long Catholics may walk away from their roots, I sense that many more non-Catholics will come home as the veil of confusion is lifted during your reign. This will happen when we are continuously and vigorously challenged by our shepherds, telling us in one, consistent voice those things we wish not to hear. All must lead us north to the land of great promise.

In other words, Pope Benedict, while still Cardinal Ratzinger, jarred me from my relativistic and secular ways through that pre-conclave homily.

Rather than insisting that the Church bend to my whims, full freedom occured when I saw that it was impossible for each and every person to find true North without using the Compass - His Church, the way it was intended, to give us moral direction. We would all like to claim our direction is North.

It is not the Church that must change, it is the priests and the people who must follow the Church in its fullness. When that happens, the pews will fill back up.

When Jesus ordered the apostles to cast their nets out he wanted them to have faith and not worry about not get enough fish. In the same way, priests need to start casting their nets of admonition and begin talking about those things we wish not to hear. They need not worry whether they scare people away. God, in his mercy, will reward those shepherds, who challenge their flock to sanctity through truth and fullness, by filling the pews . Those of humble heart will come. Those who retain pride will turn away.

For this reason, I think it is weak homilies, weak and errant doctrine, no talk of penance, and giving in to our excuses of being too busy for Mass. They need to challenge us on this. Only a small percentage of people truly have legitimate constraints so as to block both Saturday and Sunday attendance.

It is by the grace of God that they got the job, family, and hobbies that they have. Is He not worth giving one hour per week of worship?
 
Dear 8640,
I was wondering what you thought those reasons are.
Uh-oh! You caught me off guard. I suppose, I can be academic and tell you the statistics reported in my diocese, and those I have read about elsewhere as to the reasons, but here is one straight from my heart based on personal experience.

I’m a sinner, and lived a life to my own liking, which did not include Christ or His Church - no way! Full of consumerism and materialism, seeking one gratification after another. After my wonderful neighbor goaded me so many times to take my children to church, I finally gave in, just to stop her nosiness on Monday morning, asking if I had gone.

I tell you true, that it was none of these things that caused my conversion that day:
  • the rich adornment or lack thereof within the Church itself
  • the pastor’s homily - I doubt I heard a word
  • the pastor’s reverence or lack thereof during the celebration, since I paid no attention
Yet when the people were returning to their pews after receiving communion, with a glow of spiritual joy upon their face, I realized with a pain I’ll never forget - EVER - that these people were carrying Jesus Christ within them, and, sinner that I was, I could not!

I began to sob with repentant tears right there on the spot, and I tell you that I never permitted myself the pain of not receiving Jesus, ever again. No matter how much I sinned during the week, I made sure to go to confession on Saturday so I would not miss Holy Communion. No priest had to preach a homily about sin or confession to me, as I knew instinctively.

Well, my friend, my heart tells me that if people had this tremendous love for Christ in the Holy Eucharist, it would not matter if:
  • the Church was a stable
  • there was or was not an altar rail
  • the host was white or brown
  • the celebrant was not to their liking
  • the people were less than friendly
  • the mass was in the vernacular or in latin
  • the altar servers were male or female
  • there were EMHC’s giving me the host
  • etc., etc., etc.
As St. Paul once said, there is nothing whatsoever that can separate us from Jesus Christ! If our hearts were converted unto Him, the incidentals will fall by the wayside and take on far less importance. I’m not advocating these things be ignored, but we have to begin with a “Seek ye First” priority of a heart devoted to Christ, rather than insistence on outward observance of laws. When this happens throughout our Churches, the rest will fall into place.

Nobody preached to me that day-- it was a pure gift of grace, no doubt won by a loving heart who offered a sacrifice for the conversion of a sinner like me. Some day in heaven, I will be able to thank this person. That is why the Mass is so utterly important to me as well, for I can do the same for somebody else. If we truly valued the incredible, awesome mystery of what the Mass does for us and others, we would gladly celebrate it with Christ and his priest in the poorest, most humble adobe in a third world country, or in a majestic cathedral.

May we pray for one another to realize these truths with a deep piety and awe.

Carole
 
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