Low Mass Attendance in Saginaw

[8640]

PRAISE GOD CAROLE!!!

That is a magnifiscent story. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. God is truly wonderful and powerful, your story is a witness to that!

I think what you have to say is very wise. So many Catholics so not realize what they are missing when they do not attend Mass at least weekly. However, and I think you would admit this, you received a wonderful grace not offered to many, to truly know and understand your sins and your relationship with Christ. Not everyone receives such an outpouring of Grace like that. Most of us need to be taught. This teaching comes from many sources: the homily, the way the priest acts and prays, the way the people in the church respond, beauty in the liturgy-in what ever way the talents of the people can provide. There are so many ways Christ speaks to a soul and that is why, at least I believe, that the liturgy must be done to the best ability of those participating - God will make up for where we lack - then, more people may have the experience you had.

I hope this makes sense. Tell me what you think.

8640

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

8640:

PRAISE GOD CAROLE!!!

That is a magnifiscent story. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. God is truly wonderful and powerful, your story is a witness to that!

I think what you have to say is very wise. So many Catholics so not realize what they are missing when they do not attend Mass at least weekly. However, and I think you would admit this, you received a wonderful grace not offered to many, to truly know and understand your sins and your relationship with Christ. Not everyone receives such an outpouring of Grace like that. Most of us need to be taught. This teaching comes from many sources: the homily, the way the priest acts and prays, the way the people in the church respond, beauty in the liturgy-in what ever way the talents of the people can provide. There are so many ways Christ speaks to a soul and that is why, at least I believe, that the liturgy must be done to the best ability of those participating - God will make up for where we lack - then, more people may have the experience you had.

I hope this makes sense. Tell me what you think.

8640

This was similar to my thoughts as well when I read. And, Carole, that is a wonderful conversion testimonial . I agree with 8640 that it was a grace from God, much like some graces I got, yet different. I don’t know that God would grace us all in exactly the same way. It is wonderful and very “true”, the experience you had. Some need more though. I’ve heard of people being prompted by the strangest of things. Photographs I’ve taken of a particular sacred moment moved some lapsed Catholics to tears. I did not know this would happen. These were not all pre-vatican 2 Catholics nostalgic for the old Mass either. Some were post-vatican 2 folks and some were not even Catholic.

Bottom line is that we simply never know what medium God will use to reach us. I’m sure he works through these forums because I have learned alot personally from so many people - things that have strengthened my faith.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Thus far, we have all focused on the parish priests in this conversation. However, I can’t help but think about the bishops. I look at people like Archbishop Chaput in Denver and Bishop Olmstead in Phoenix and I can only pray that other church leaders will follow their leads.

I could be wrong, but I do not think that I am. In Denver, I understand that there is a boom in the seminary where previously, there was a shortage. I understand this is taking place in Nebraska, as well. Phoenix, which was a hotbed for gay Catholic culture, is returning to orthodoxy given the job Olmstead has done. While some may leave, I think many more will come back.

The ordinary Catholic is tired of the homosexual agenda being shoved down their throat. The Catholic church has nothing to lose in standing her ground that chastity for these unfortunate souls is the path that they must take, not promiscuity and dissent from the teachings of the Church. As a single person, it is no different for me - sex is not a God-given right to any person, except those who have been joined through sacramental marriage.

I look too, at the number of times the bishops have shifted the Holy Days of obligation, as opposed to encouraging us to keep holy these days, by maintaining them in the schedule. God deserves more time, not less and less.

They bishops also need to take a stand with the pro-choice Catholic politicians, which I suspect may be happening as I write this, behind closed doors.

We need to hear from them about how to live more holy lives.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Found something quite relevant to this discussion, at least, I find affirmation from Pope Benedict XVI in at least one point that I’ve tried to make. That is when our shepherds speak the truth, including those things we wish not to hear, it will draw people, not repel them. Here is an excerpt from his address to Austrian Bishops recently. Found in full at this site:

…To begin with, the pope exhorted them to “look reality in the face with courage, without letting optimism, which is always a lure for us, represent an obstacle to calling things by their names with complete objectivity and without embellishment.” …

…“As you well know, the confession of the faith is one of the bishop’s primary duties. ‘I did not draw back’, St. Paul says in Miletus to the pastors of the Church of Ephesus, ‘from the task of proclaiming to you the whole counsel of God’ (Acts 20:27). It is true that we bishops must act with discretion. Nevertheless, this prudence must not prevent us from presenting the Word of God in all its clarity, including those things that are heard less willingly or that consistently provoke reactions of protest and derision. You, dear brothers in the episcopacy, know this well: there are some topics relating to the truth of the faith, and above all to moral doctrine, which are not present in the catechesis and preaching of your dioceses to a sufficient extent, and which sometimes, for example in pastoral outreach to youth in the parishes or groups, are either not confronted at all or are not addressed in the clear sense understood by the Church. Thanks be to God, it is not like this everywhere. Perhaps those who are responsible for the proclamation [of the Gospel] are afraid that people may draw back if they speak too clearly. However, experience in general demonstrates that it is precisely the opposite that happens. Don’t deceive yourselves! Catholic teaching offered in an incomplete manner is a contradiction of itself and cannot be fruitful in the long term. The proclamation of the Kingdom of God goes hand in hand with the demand for conversion and with the love that encourages, that knows the way, that teaches that with the grace of God even that which seemed impossible becomes possible. Think of how, little by little, religious instruction, catechesis on various levels, and preaching can be improved, deepened, and, so to speak, completed! Please, make zealous use of the ‘Compendium’ and the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’! Have the priests and catechists adopt these tools, have them explained in the parishes, have them used in families as important reading material! Amid the uncertainty of this period of history and this society, offer to men the certainty of the fullness of the Church‘s faith! The clarity and the beauty of the Catholic faith are what make man’s life shine, even today! This is especially the case when it is presented by enthusiastic and exciting witnesses.”

I’ll take it a step further. Not only should the faith be more fully conveyed in the parishes as Pope Benedict is demanding here, but somehow the Bishops have to get to those Catholics not in the pews. They need to make the news and generally this happens when they shock the secular media by standing firm on Catholic teaching. This is how Archbishop Chaput and Bishop Olmstead get into the news so much - just making sure people understand the Church’s position on all matters, not just love, charity and mercy.

 

[BayCityRickL]

I was greatly impressed last evening by Fr. John Corapi’s honest 2003 talk on the priesthood. He talked briefly about what the priesthood was and what the contemporary problems are – you know all of them.

But, he emphasized how bishops and priests are subverting the traditional message of the gospel, and how they are substituting their own agendas.

I would rather not listen to commentaries like his, but I have to listen to Charles Stanley to get some first class bible teaching (as decidedly non-catholic as he is). Even on EWTN, the daily homily is crafted for the “international” audience, as it was on Thanksgiving Day.

But, I have to listen to Corapi because at least it gives me hope that the entire sacramental priesthood is not corrupted. How many priests and bishops speak as plainly as Corapi did last evening, to admit that arrogance is a constant temptation of those in the priesthood? And, that they sometimes fashion their thoughts as if they were the Church triumphant instead of being the Church militant, which we actually are?

 

[Joysong]

**
Diane quoting Pope Benedict:

The proclamation of the Kingdom of God goes hand in hand with the demand for conversion

** and with the love that encourages, that knows the way, that teaches that with the grace of God.

In my previous witness about my conversion, what I failed to mention was that I had been blessed to attend a Catholic school from my early grades through high school. In those days, we went to daily Mass and confession frequently as a whole classroom. We had the old Baltimore Catechism memorized, and I can quote some of it to this day. Did my full knowledge of God’s law have power to keep me holy?

St. Paul wrote in Romans 2:28, “For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly; nor is that circumcision which is so outwardly in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is so inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter.”

Many of us know how well St. Paul knew the law with perfection and extreme zeal - yet He knew not the Lord, and his blindness was the cause of his persecution of the new christians. Somewhere during these years, the catechesis I received failed to penetrate my heart and it made me concentrate on the outward letter only — so that I would not go to hell if I missed mass, etc.

I never truly prayed from the heart and had a relationship with Christ, nor did I ever witness my parents praying or the nun in the classroom helping us learn how to talk to Christ. It was all law. No wonder it failed! As soon as I left my parents’ home, I abandoned “religion” and fell into sin. Knowledge of sin and fully knowing the catechism was little advantage to lasting conversion. As you now know, it was only being knocked off my horse like St. Paul, and encountering the Lord of Lords Himself that was able to free me from sin. (I cannot fault my instructors, for they did their best, but something in my makeup failed to grasp the most important teaching of all - Jesus!)

After my conversion, I went back to the basics from my childhood training, and relearned them with a new energy and spirit. I have the feeling that a number of those who go to Mass are simply fulfilling the third commandment, yet as Jesus said, “their hearts are far from Me.” It is to build one’s house on sand, rather than rock, and when the rains come, we know the sad result.

When the Church universally follows the message of our Pope, above, I believe parishes will truly flourish and be of one mind, one heart, one Spirit.

And yes, 8640 and Diane, we have to do our best, meanwhile, to reach out and teach the faithful who do come to Mass. My pastor does a wonderful job and concentrates primarily on the scripture readings in his homilies, to be sure we understand them completely. All of his liturgical actions express his deep piety.

8640:

Most of us need to be taught. This teaching comes from many sources: the homily, the way the priest acts and prays, the way the people in the church respond, beauty in the liturgy-in what ever way the talents of the people can provide. There are so many ways Christ speaks to a soul (Indeed yes!)

and that is why, at least I believe, that the liturgy must be done to the best ability of those participating - God will make up for where we lack - then, more people may have the experience you had.

Carole

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Carole,

Your story of knowing all of the truths of the Catholic faith, yet wandering after leaving home, is also true for many Catholics of previous generations.

However, there is a difference in wandering from the faith, wilfully, and with full knowledge of it, than wandering from the faith out of ignorance. Much of the wandering we have going on there out of post-Vatican II Catholics belongs to the latter category. We had no decent Catechism. All I learend was Jesus Love Me, God is love and love is God and similar. There is nothing wrong with these things, except when they are taught in the absence of how to love Jesus back (in the form of striving for holiness).

There are another class of post-vatican 2 Catholics like that of my neighbor. She was raised like you in a Catholic school. She learned all the truths of the faith. However, at some point, someone convinced her that the Church said we didn’t need to go to Mass each Sunday, and confession was only for those who wanted it, but “they did away with that years ago when they did away with the weekly Mass requirement.” Many Catholics were led in this direction by some means.

Stories like yours, which is very similar to my sister’s experience, does not mean the Church should abandon the need to teach good, solid instruction. If the faithful choose to walk away after receiving good instruction, then it is not the Church’s fault.

There is no doubt and it is well documented that prior to Vatican 2, homilies were dominated with talk of sin, hell, etc. But, following V2, it went to the other extreme and led many Catholics into the presumptious state of believing we are all saved because “Jesus loves me”.

Lets shift it a little. Last night I listened to Fr. John Corapi and he nailed it all. He talked about how the homilies have degraded and have not taught the fullness of the faith. He talked about how sin was dumbed down, if talked about at all. And, how many priests were taught and conditioned to not talk about contraception, abortion, and other sensitive topics. He went on to clarify he was talking from his personal experience in the seminary and how very few good, Catholic men managed to survive the outrageous atmosphere in play. Not only were they omitting doctrine, but teaching errant doctrine. Fr. Corapi reminded us all that there were many good men who succumbed to those horrors in the seminary and that it is not entirely the fault of these priests. “They had a lot of ‘help’”, he said and he encouraged prayers.

But you can’t deny that Fr. Corapi’s strong following says something. Why do so many people pack in to his talks, where people must be turned away, when all he is doing is preaching the truth and fullness of the faith, without shying away from sensitive subjects?

Fr. Corapi’s following is just one more piece of testimony that if you preach the faith as it was meant to be preached, without prejudice, the sheep will follow. The Corapi style homililes are one of many things that take me back to Grotto almost daily.

 

[Joysong]

Hi Diane,

There is no doubt and it is well documented that prior to Vatican 2, homilies were dominated with talk of sin, hell, etc. But, following V2, it went to the other extreme and led many Catholics into the presumptious state of believing we are all saved because “Jesus loves me”.

Lets shift it a little. Last night I listened to Fr. John Corapi and he nailed it all.

I have the deepest respect and admiration for Fr. Corapi, and listen to a lot of his talks. One point he made, in particular, was that a lot of people blame Vatican II for the state of the Church today. He gets very upset, and asks them to show him the paragraph where it proves what they say. He has read every word and knows what is falsely being attributed to the documents. I have read them, too, and I have a hard time with some of that nonsense, as well.

This morning, Raymond Arroyo on EWTN was interviewing an author (Ralph ?) who wrote a book called, The Errors of Vatican II. I only saw five minutes of the scheduled three-part series, since I had to leave for Mass. Arroyo asked him point blank what he thought the problems in the Church today stem from, and he wisely answered, “Original sin.” http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Yes, I am blessed to have been a Catholic living during both sides of V-II. I honestly can’t say that the old way was all fire and brimstone, and the pendulum shifted to all love and mercy, post V-II, as I have not studied the trends outside of my own circle.

All I know is that my conversion was at St. Gertrude’s in St. Clair Shores around 1967, after Vatican II, within the new Mass. Odd to some, I guess, but I did not find it difficult to change, and I truly welcomed hearing the beautiful words of the liturgy in the vernacular. There are just some deep meanings that escaped me when it was in latin. For instance, A Te Numquam, means very little to me — but “Let me never be parted from thee” is the constant prayer of my heart when I go to communion.

The Orate Frates meant little, but now this old latin prayer enjoins my offering with the priest … for OUR good and the good of ALL the Church. It means sooooo much more!

I could go on and on, but I realize this Mass does not speak to you, so I don’t want to try and convert anyone. My only hope is that all of us respect the manner of worship that speaks to each heart. It is taught in the Catechism, that there is a part of the Mass that is immutable, and parts that can be changed. The Church may lawfully bring about these changes and we honor Her authority to do so when this occurs.

When my best friend died a couple years ago of a brain aneurysm, her husband and three sons have not returned to Church. They were all kept together by this loving mother, but when she left us, it became easy for them to slip away. It has nothing to do, IMO, with orthodoxy, for we have the same priest, same liturgy, same everything. That’s just good ole original sin rearing its head, and it causes me to wonder how true their faith was in the first place; i.e., centered on Jesus.

Carole

 

[8640]

Ah, Original Sin, isn’t it delightfully ironic that without it we would be back in the garden of paradise, but with it we can go to Mass and recieve the Divine person of Christ into our souls?!

The human person learns through two different means. On the first hand he learns through his intellect and this is where memorizing catechism and listening to quality homilies are absolutely necessary. The person also learns through his senses/emotions and this is where experiences such as Carole’s come in. When he witness the example of a holy priest, sister, or any man or woman or the beauty of the liturgy which engages all of his five senses that speaks to him on a different level. Both are necessary and both need to be emphasized.

May we all strive after the perfection of both these modes of knowing God, not only for ourselves but those of us who are lost at this moment in time.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Hi Diane,

I have the deepest respect and admiration for Fr. Corapi, and listen to a lot of his talks. One point he made, in particular, was that a lot of people blame Vatican II for the state of the Church today. He gets very upset, and asks them to show him the paragraph where it proves what they say. He has read every word and knows what is falsely being attributed to the documents. I have read them, too, and I have a hard time with some of that nonsense, as well.

Carole

At no point did I ever mention Vatican II was to blame for anything and it drives me nuts when I talk about a post-Vatican 2 shift and someone suggests or even infers that I am blaming Vatican 2. Rather, it is people who made unauthorized changes all on their own, errant and bad theology. I’m sure all were well-intended, but they were simply wrong. People took liberties with Vatican 2. I have provided this quote in various threads since Cardinal Arinze has made it, in defense of Vatican II.

So there are problems. However some of the problems were not caused by Vatican II, but they were caused by children of the Church after Vatican II. Some of them talking of Vatican II push in their own agenda. We have to watch that. People pushing their own agenda justifying it as the “spirit of Vatican II”.

Also, I was talking about content of preaching. My sister is very vocal about the homilies from when she was younger (pre-Vatican 2). While it was not everyone’s experience, she and many others from her generation felt like they were going to hell no matter what. I have heard this personally from many Catholics her age.

Vatican II itself wanted priests to talk more about the side of Jesus that was loving, compassionate and merciful - thank God! But my own experience, in at least 7-8 parishes surrounding me is that they simply left out key parts of the faith in their preaching. Fr. Corapi himself just stated last night at 10:00 on EWTN that seminarians were told NOT to bring up sensitive subjects like contraception and abortion. This was his first hand experience from his seminary days. He himself talked about the same kind of things missing from preaching - talk of sin, justice, sacrifice, etc.

Fr. Corapi does not draw people with talk about self-esteem and the “feel good” part of Catholicism. He talks about all of it and he makes us reflect and look inward. That is why people come to hear him. And, every priest is capable of delivering the same content and drawing the same crowds.

The content of Fr. Corapi’s preaching contains talk of love and mercy, but he does not leave out the stuff that is less pleasant. In fact, it is the less pleasant stuff that he hones in on - a fine trait of any preacher.

Too much new age and self-esteem garbage has made its way into preaching. People don’t need that in a Catholic Church. They can go find it in the book store or just turn on any one of several “treat yourself well” programs that are on TV - something I use to do, along with a litany of self-help books. Not anymore. The Catholic Church offers it all for those who want it, setting aside truly mentally ill people who need pyschiatric care. The rest of us simply need to hear what we don’t want to hear sometimes.

I have NEVER heard abortion talked against, or NFP promoted from a pulpit until I got to my present parish. That says nothing about the lack of talk about ALL of the virtues, and how we should “offer it up” to God whenever we must endure something that we prefer not to, or pain that is difficult to bear. The last time I heard anyone say, “offer it up” was when my father was still alive nearly 15 years ago and it was only in my home. I don’t recall ever hearing this kind of challenge from the pulpit. For the first time in my life, a priest challenged me from the pulpit to “slow down” during Advent, rather than fall into the speedy pace secular society demands during Advent. He vigorously encouraged us to turn off the TV and radio, stop the video games, and quietly wait in anticipation for Jesus.

 

[Joysong]

Diane,

You are rather sensitive, and I think you misread my message.

Diane:

At no point did I ever mention Vatican II was to blame for anything and it drives me nuts when I talk about a post-Vatican 2 shift and someone suggests or even infers that I am blaming Vatican 2. Rather, it is people who made unauthorized changes all on their own, errant and bad theology. I’m sure all were well-intended, but they were simply wrong. People took liberties with Vatican 2.

I did not infer that you were blaming V-II, but I spoke about how well Fr. Corapi addressed this, in order to further expand upon your mention of it in the previous paragraph. There are too many people who promoted their own thing in the name of the documents, and Fr. Corapi said we should dispel this nonsense by asking them to show us where it states their assertions. Many never even saw the documents, let alone read them. I think he had a very good suggestion, don’t you?

The only point with which I am in disagreement is that the problems in the church today are due to a lack of good preaching and a return to the good old days. Been there, done that, and it failed with me. I think the problems go a lot deeper than that, as I tried to point out with the death of my friend and her family’s departure from the Church.

You can be certain that many are leaving for the reasons you suggest, but I would not expect that to be the only one. Hopefully, I can catch the new series by Raymond Arroyo and see what the author he was interviewing has to say.

Carole

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Carole,

Maybe I misunderstood you, about the V2 issue. I’m just getting a little fatigued when bringing up a pre/post V2 issue that people get into the “stop blaming V2” mode when I was never blaming it to begin with. While it may not have been your intent, it came across as if this is what you were getting at.

Joysong:

Diane,

You can be certain that many are leaving for the reasons you suggest, but I would not expect that to be the only one. Hopefully, I can catch the new series by Raymond Arroyo and see what the author he was interviewing has to say.

Carole

I have never thought that there was a single reason why people left. I just feel quite strongly that when the Church went loosey-goosey on every front, fearful of sending people away, people didn’t see a need to be at Church anymore [because we’re all going to heaven anyway and we don’t need a Church to tell us how to behave or worship - we can pray to God at my home, its more interesting there].

Some tried, in vain, to bring people back by changing the liturgy to make it “more exciting” and that didn’t work. Some loosened doctrine or simply didn’t bother with certain parts of it and I believe it pushed people farther away than what it did to bring others back.

I go back to Pope Benedict’s words to the Austrian Bishops, further up the thread. While he says, “Thank God its not like this everywhere”, it speaks for me and my experience with the local Catholic Church with regards to preaching and doctrine (not every single parish, I’m sure, since I have not had an opportunity to spend quality time in each. But I have spent time in 7-8 over about a 25 year period and it took that long to find Grotto - the only one that has been absolutely solid on worship and doctrine).

It is true that we bishops must act with discretion. Nevertheless, this prudence must not prevent us from presenting the Word of God in all its clarity, including those things that are heard less willingly or that consistently provoke reactions of protest and derision.

You, dear brothers in the episcopacy, know this well: there are some topics relating to the truth of the faith, and above all to moral doctrine, which are not present in the catechesis and preaching of your dioceses to a sufficient extent, and which sometimes, for example in pastoral outreach to youth in the parishes or groups, are either not confronted at all or are not addressed in the clear sense understood by the Church. Thanks be to God, it is not like this everywhere.

Perhaps those who are responsible for the proclamation [of the Gospel]are afraid that people may draw back if they speak too clearly. However, experience in general demonstrates that it is precisely the opposite that happens. Don’t deceive yourselves! Catholic teaching offered in an incomplete manner is a contradiction of itself and cannot be fruitful in the long term.

**Why would he have a need to say this, if it weren’t significant? Trust me, its not limited to some small corner of Austria and bishops around the world were glad it wasn’t them sitting in the room that day. Pope Benedict could have chosen any number of countries to deliver the same admonishment. **

How many other people reading this thread can relate to what Pope Benedict XVI says here with regards to their diocese or parish? If so, at least state your country.

 

[Joysong]

Hi Diane,

:clapping: Viva Pope Benedict! May his words reach to the ends of the earth! I can’t say how well they are being heeded, Diane, but for my parish, I have no complaints, and you are in good hands also.

Carole

 

[FriendlySkeptic]

Hi,

I live in a different Michigan diocese, but my travels take me through Saginaw frequently. I’ve never attended Mass in Saginaw, so I’m a neutral outsider.

I have read about lots of abuses here and in the other Saginaw threads. I am interested in attending a Mass to observe for myself.

Please provide the name and city of the parish that you think exemplifies the worst within the diocese of Saginaw. After attending, I will report my observations here.

Thanks.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

FriendlySkeptic:

Hi,

I live in a different Michigan diocese, but my travels take me through Saginaw frequently. I’ve never attended Mass in Saginaw, so I’m a neutral outsider.

I have read about lots of abuses here and in the other Saginaw threads. I am interested in attending a Mass to observe for myself.

Please provide the name and city of the parish that you think exemplifies the worst within the diocese of Saginaw. After attending, I will report my observations here.

Thanks.

**Anyone wishing to respond to the above post should do so by PM. At best the response would be a subjective one and in all fairness to any of the parishes named would reflect an opinion of one individual.

Any negative reports upon attending that parish should be made in generalities only.**