Lucifer and Satan...same beings or different?

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atombomb14

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I have heard more than one prominent Exorcist say that in fact Lucifer and satan are not the same entities.That Lucifer is the head of the rebellion of the angels against God…and that satan is a higher up demon–but not the top demon that Lucifer is.–I mentioned this and some friends of mine replied that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.-I tend to believe the exorcists–who are in the trenches…but…anyone have any strong opinions???
 
From what I know many demons are called Satan because it means adversary.

Whether or not Lucifer is the Satan always referred to in the bible, I just took it for granted that this Satan was Lucifer.

Im interested to hear what everybody else says.
 
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SojournerOf78:
From what I know many demons are called Satan because it means adversary.

Whether or not Lucifer is the Satan always referred to in the bible, I just took it for granted that this Satan was Lucifer.

Im interested to hear what everybody else says.
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Soujourner:
These people said also that satan means adversary…and THEREFORE they used that to say that Satan and lucifer are the same.I reject that as an argument–because adversary can be used to describe ALL fallen angels and even some people.
 
Since all demons are fallen angels, and Lucifer is the leader of the rebellion, and a leader is greater than his subjects, especially in the case of angels, who are composed more simply that human beings, then Lucifer must be Satan. Satan cannot be a separate demon, a superior to Lucifer, because then that Satan would have been the leader of the rebellion, and not Lucifer.

Please tell me which exorcists have said this, and their exact words.

God bless,

The Augustinian
 
The Augustinian:
Since all demons are fallen angels, and Lucifer is the leader of the rebellion, and a leader is greater than his subjects, especially in the case of angels, who are composed more simply that human beings, then Lucifer must be Satan. Satan cannot be a separate demon, a superior to Lucifer, because then that Satan would have been the leader of the rebellion, and not Lucifer.

Please tell me which exorcists have said this, and their exact words.

God bless,

The Augustinian
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First of all–i never said nor did these exorcists ever say that Satan was a superior to lucifer…just the opposite.–And you provide no argument for claiming that Lucifer must be Satan–other than to state that Lucifer is the head of the fallen angels and that he has subjects…So what?? that doesn’t present a logical reason why satan and lucifer are the same.
 
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atombomb14:
Soujourner:
These people said also that satan means adversary…and THEREFORE they used that to say that Satan and lucifer are the same.I reject that as an argument–because adversary can be used to describe ALL fallen angels and even some people.
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Well for one it wasnt an argument, you asked for opinions.

Secondly, I heard that from a Catholic Exorcist…yes that was the point, all fallen angels could be called Satan if one so desired, that was exactly what I was saying.
 
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SojournerOf78:
Well for one it wasnt an argument, you asked for opinions.

Secondly, I heard that from a Catholic Exorcist…yes that was the point, all fallen angels could be called Satan if one so desired, that was exactly what I was saying.
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Soujourner—I wasn’t referring to YOU when I said that wasn’t an argument—I was referring to my friends who used that as an argument.I appreciate your opinions.
 
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atombomb14:
First of all–i never said nor did these exorcists ever say that Satan was a superior to lucifer…just the opposite.–And you provide no argument for claiming that Lucifer must be Satan–other than to state that Lucifer is the head of the fallen angels and that he has subjects…So what?? that doesn’t present a logical reason why satan and lucifer are the same.
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Youre not understanding the terms “Leader of a rebellion” or “leading a rebellion”…when youre ‘leading’ you are the top guy, thats how it works.

Lucifer was his first name and then he was given the name Satan. The Lord changes peoples names in scripture all the time…since Lucifer led the rebellion it would follow that he was the leader, therefore whent he scripture speaks of Satan as the leader it is speaking of the same angel, once known as Lucifer.
 
I’m sorry, I must have misread your question.

The name Satan is Hebrew for “Adversary”. Since Lucifer is the leader of the rebellion against Heaven, then he is the greatest of all adversaries, and thus deserves the name Satan more than any other. There is no greater adversary than him.

Whatever we call him, let us pray to St. Michael the Archangel to deliver us from the traps and snares of the Devil.

God bless,

The Augustinian
 
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SojournerOf78:
Youre not understanding the terms “Leader of a rebellion” or “leading a rebellion”…when youre ‘leading’ you are the top guy, thats how it works.

Lucifer was his first name and then he was given the name Satan. The Lord changes peoples names in scripture all the time…since Lucifer led the rebellion it would follow that he was the leader, therefore whent he scripture speaks of Satan as the leader it is speaking of the same angel, once known as Lucifer.
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I didn’t misunderstand that.-And didn’t Jesus once say to a disciple of his “away from me satan”–or some such thing??-surely the disciple wasn’t the leader of the rebellion against God.–Where in scripture is Satan referred to interchangably with Lucifer???

and PS–you seem like you are sure of the answer now–whereas before you just seemed curious like i am.
 
The Augustinian:
I’m sorry, I must have misread your question.

The name Satan is Hebrew for “Adversary”. Since Lucifer is the leader of the rebellion against Heaven, then he is the greatest of all adversaries, and thus deserves the name Satan more than any other. There is no greater adversary than him.

Whatever we call him, let us pray to St. Michael the Archangel to deliver us from the traps and snares of the Devil.

God bless,

The Augustinian
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No problem augustinian–thanx for the reply…-However–just because satan means adversary–and Lucifer happens to be the top adversary—doesn’t technically mean that the second or third in command couldn’t have the name satan.
 
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atombomb14:
Where in scripture is Satan referred to interchangably with Lucifer???
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In Scripture only the king of Bablyon is referred to as Lucifer and that is in Isaiah 14:12. It was only later that Church Fathers started applying the name to Satan.

The Hebrew word ‘heylel’ has traditionally been translated as ‘lucifer’ (Latin for ‘light-bearer’), as in the Vulgate, Douay-Rheims and King James Versions. However, the New American Bible translates it as ‘morning star’ and the Revised Standard Version translates it as ‘Day Star’:
"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, `I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15, RSV)
 
Todd Easton:
In Scripture only the king of Bablyon is referred to as Lucifer and that is in Isaiah 14:12. It was only later that Church Fathers started applying the name to Satan.

The Hebrew word ‘heylel’ has traditionally been translated as ‘lucifer’ (Latin for ‘light-bearer’), as in the Vulgate, Douay-Rheims and King James Versions. However, the New American Bible translates it as ‘morning star’ and the Revised Standard Version translates it as ‘Day Star’:
"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, `I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15, RSV)
Thanx Todd:
I think that may score some points for the side that says Lucifer and satan are different beings
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atombomb14:
I didn’t misunderstand that.-And didn’t Jesus once say to a disciple of his “away from me satan”–or some such thing??-surely the disciple wasn’t the leader of the rebellion against God.–Where in scripture is Satan referred to interchangably with Lucifer???
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I believe Jesus was commenting on the fact that Peter’s statement was from Satan, he was speaking past Peter.

There is a figure in the scriptures that is portrayed as the leader of the evil force, theres no verse that says Lucifer is Satan or Satan is Lucifer, it has to be inferred, the dood just has different names but is no longer referred to as Lucifer, he lost that title.

If you go to Revelation 12 you can also see that the Dragon is Satan and the Devil, he has 3 names in just one verse. You will notice in Revelation 12:7 that Satan is the leader, and we know from scripture that Lucifer was the leader of the rebellion…put 2 and 2 together and you have it.
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atombomb14:
and PS–you seem like you are sure of the answer now–whereas before you just seemed curious like i am.
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:bowdown:
Yes, because I had never questioned it, and after reflecting on it and checking scripture I am now positive of the answer
 
luke 10:18 seems to imply, to me, that they’re the same. i believe it’s always been understood that they’re the same. it’s difficult to know, of course, because satan is a liar, and so he would have us believe all sorts of things other than the truth.

does the catechism say anything about it?
 
also, revelation talks about lucifer ‘sweeping the stars out of heaven with his tail’, and then in the following verse, says:

2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

sounds like the same person to me.
 
Lucifer is not a proper name, but a description. Furthermore, it’s never used in Scripture to indicate the Devil, or Satan. The passage in Isaiah is directed at the mortal Babylonian King, and in the NT the term lucifer is used by Peter as a positive thing.

2 Peter 1:19 (Latin Vulgate):

et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

2 Peter 1:19 (RSV):

And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

There’s nothing to indicate that Lucifer is the name of Satan, from what I know. It’s just a mundane human tradition to call it that, and I think it’s a rather erroneous one at that.
 
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Ghosty:
Lucifer is not a proper name, but a description. Furthermore, it’s never used in Scripture to indicate the Devil, or Satan. The passage in Isaiah is directed at the mortal Babylonian King, and in the NT the term lucifer is used by Peter as a positive thing.

2 Peter 1:19 (Latin Vulgate):

et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

2 Peter 1:19 (RSV):

And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

There’s nothing to indicate that Lucifer is the name of Satan, from what I know. It’s just a mundane human tradition to call it that, and I think it’s a rather erroneous one at that.
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Well–the more simplistic reasons i hear from people that Satan and Lucifer are the same beings–the more I lean toward them being different. Two very well known Exorcists have said that they are 2 separate beings–and that the head honcho was lucifer. I think that the exorcists–being in the trenches/on the front lines of battles against demons–would know this.
 
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Ghosty:
Lucifer is not a proper name, but a description. Furthermore, it’s never used in Scripture to indicate the Devil, or Satan. The passage in Isaiah is directed at the mortal Babylonian King, and in the NT the term lucifer is used by Peter as a positive thing.

2 Peter 1:19 (Latin Vulgate):

et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

2 Peter 1:19 (RSV):

And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

There’s nothing to indicate that Lucifer is the name of Satan, from what I know. It’s just a mundane human tradition to call it that, and I think it’s a rather erroneous one at that.
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From everything I know the speech towards the king is then projected back towards the power that is at work behind him…because the king of Babylon most definately was not fallen from heaven…go read your psalms, how often does David slip in and out of talking about his own life and that of the life of Christ? Its the way the Hebrews wrote their stuff, from what I know the Church has always known the 2 names to be the leader of the rebellion.
 
Can you tell me what the point of this thread is? I don’t care what we call him, he’s the Enemy, and that’s all that matters. What’s in a name, anyway? Whether we call him Lucifer, the Devil, Satan, Old Nick, or whatever is immaterial. A devil by any other name would still reek of evil.

We shouldn’t waste our time on the Devil. Let us concentrate on serving God.

The Augustinian
 
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