Lucifer is no longer in the Bible

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The other day I almost got into an argument with a Catholic friend trying to explain to him that Lucifer is NOT the name of Satan and that scholars were right to leave the term out of the new Bible translation. Even though I was able to point him to valid Catholic sources such as the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm to back up my statements he still was convinced that Lucifer being taken out of the Bible was the result of some conspiracy. Any advice on how to talk to Catholics who are convinced every change that has happened in the Church and Her liturgy in the last 60 years is the result of a conspriacy concocted by progressives, modernists, liberals, (insert your preferred descriptor here), etc. … ?
 
The name [devil] commonly given to the fallen angels, who are also known as demons. With the article (ho) it denotes Lucifer, their chief, as in Matthew 25:41, “the Devil and his angels”.
– from the article “Devil”, Catholic Encyclopedia, New Advent
Morning star: the king of Babylon. The Vulgate has “Lucifer,” a name applied by the Church Fathers to Satan.
NAB footnote to Isaiah 14:12

Personally, I’m ok with this usage. It has St. Jerome and 1600 years of Catholic tradition behind it. 🙂

 
St. Jerome borrowed the name Lucifer from pre-Christian Roman mythology. (You can check out the writings of Ovid and Virgil for yourself. Both were Latin poets who lived before the Christian Era.) “Lucifer” is in no way shape or form derived from the Hebrew language which is the original language of the OT (note: the word “lucifer” has never appeared in the NT). Michael is an example of a name derived from Hebrew, Lucifer is 100% Latin. Yes, the Vulgate has been around for a long time, does something being in use a long time make it right? Because if that is your standard you should be a Hindu. There is no major religion currently being practiced that is older than Hinduism.

I don’t think people today would consider it a good idea to borrow names from pagan mythology and place them in translations of the Bible. 1) it is anachronistic, 2) it is outside the cultural context of the OT.
 
Lucifer simply means light-bearer in Latin, and was not orginally a proper noun. It became that later.

Even then, though, it wasn’t a bad name. There was once a Catholic bishop named Lucifer, from Cagliari.
 
Yes, the Vulgate has been around for a long time, does something being in use a long time make it right?
THE COUNCIL OF TRENT Session IV - Celebrated on the eighth day of April, 1546 under Pope Paul III:
Decree Concerning The Edition And Use Of The Sacred Books
Moreover, the same holy council considering that not a little advantage will accrue to the Church of God if it be made known which of all the Latin editions of the sacred books now in circulation is to be regarded as authentic, ordains and declares that the old Latin Vulgate Edition, which, in use for so many hundred years, has been approved by the Church, be in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions held as authentic, and that no one dare or presume under any pretext whatsoever to reject it.
Code:
 Furthermore, to check unbridled spirits, it decrees that no one relying on his own     judgment shall, in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the edification of Christian     doctrine, distorting the Holy Scriptures in accordance with his own conceptions,     presume to interpret them contrary to that sense which holy mother Church, to whom it     belongs to judge of their true sense and interpretation, has held and holds, or even     contrary to the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, even though such interpretations should     never at any time be published…
I’m starting to think you don’t simply have a problem with the name Lucifer for Satan. I’m wondering if you deny that Satan is being referred to in some sense in Isaiah 14:12. If so then you might be violating paragraph two above. Proper interpretation of Scripture belongs to the Catholic Church alone. And the Church teaches Lucifer is the devil. On this point we can call on St. Augustine. From The City of God, Book XI, Chapter 15:
And how do they answer the prophetic proofs,—either what Isaiah says when he represents the devil under the person of the king of Babylon, “How are you fallen, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” or what Ezekiel says, “You have been in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering,”…
St. Thomas Aquinas quotes both these same verses in his Treatise on The Angels (Question LXIII, Fifth Article) in the Summa Theologica in discussing the wickedness of the devil. Then there is St. Ignatius Loyola from his Spiritual Exercises:
The Fourth Day Meditation on Two Standards—The one of Christ, our Commander-in-chief and Lord; the other of Lucifer, mortal enemy of our human nature.
Here is an example from St. John Cassian who died in 435, from The Conferences of John Cassian (Conference 5, Chapter VI) :
…as Luke the evangelist says, the devil showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time and promised them to Him, may be taken of the feeling of covetousness, because after His victory over gluttony, he did not venture to tempt Him to fornication, but passed on to covetousness, which he knew to be the root of all evils, and when again vanquished in this, he did not dare attack Him with any of those sins which follow, which, as he knew full well, spring from this as a root and source; and so he passed on to the last passion; viz., pride, by which he knew that those who are perfect and have overcome all other sins, can be affected, and owing to which he remembered that he himself in his character of Lucifer, and many others too, had fallen from their heavenly estate, without temptation from any of the preceding passions.
 
Father Gabriele Amorth, the Vatican’s leading Exorcist, has said that the Devil identifies himself as “‘Satan, or Lucifer or Beelzebub.’”
 
THE COUNCIL OF TRENT Session IV - Celebrated on the eighth day of April, 1546 under Pope Paul III:

I’m starting to think you don’t simply have a problem with the name Lucifer for Satan. I’m wondering if you deny that Satan is being referred to in some sense in Isaiah 14:12. If so then you might be violating paragraph two above. Proper interpretation of Scripture belongs to the Catholic Church alone. And the Church teaches Lucifer is the devil. On this point we can call on St. Augustine. From The City of God, Book XI, Chapter 15:

St. Thomas Aquinas quotes both these same verses in his Treatise on The Angels (Question LXIII, Fifth Article) in the Summa Theologica in discussing the wickedness of the devil. Then there is St. Ignatius Loyola from his Spiritual Exercises:

Here is an example from St. John Cassian who died in 435, from The Conferences of John Cassian (Conference 5, Chapter VI) :
Hey ‘Cranch’ thanks for those references to St. John Cassian, I need your help though, In looking up his Conferences, the first thing i saw was First Conference of Abbot Moses, i was wondering if you know if this Abbot Moses, is the same as Saint Moses the Ethiopian? Thanks
 
Hey ‘Cranch’ thanks for those references to St. John Cassian, I need your help though, In looking up his Conferences, the first thing i saw was First Conference of Abbot Moses, i was wondering if you know if this Abbot Moses, is the same as Saint Moses the Ethiopian? Thanks
I am not positive but I think it most likely. As you saw in the First Conference, St. John Cassian sets the location at Scete. This link identifies St. Moses the Black as being known also as the Ethiopian and locates him at Scete (Skete). This link says he eventually was the superior at the monastery, which would make him an abbot.

Orthodox prayers to St. Moses the Black.
 
Hello,

The Latin is:

Quomodo cecidisti de caelo, lucifer, fili aurorae?

The Latin gives the word lucifer - which the older translations translated literally as Lucifer. Modern translations give a translation that denotes the meaning in English - light bearer, morning star, day star.

Note that Lucifer is not a proper name of the devil. It denotes the condition at the time of his fall from grace.
 
The other day I almost got into an argument with a Catholic friend trying to explain to him that Lucifer is NOT the name of Satan and that scholars were right to leave the term out of the new Bible translation. Even though I was able to point him to valid Catholic sources such as the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm to back up my statements he still was convinced that Lucifer being taken out of the Bible was the result of some conspiracy. Any advice on how to talk to Catholics who are convinced every change that has happened in the Church and Her liturgy in the last 60 years is the result of a conspriacy concocted by progressives, modernists, liberals, (insert your preferred descriptor here), etc. … ?

1. There’s no conspiracy 🙂

It sounds as if your friend has Isaiah 14 in mind. In that chapter, the name Helel is translated into Greek as Phōsphoros , or “light-bringer” - in Latin, Lucifer.

Helel is
  • a heavenly body - Venus, IIRC;
  • the son of a Canaanite goddess named Shachar, (who is referred to in the Hebrew of Psalm 2)
  • & - in Isa. 14 - the king of Babylon is addressed as Helel
    So Helel is a complex figure, especially in Isa. 14 - because the name is used - in different ways - so as to refer to a figure which is at once a heavenly body, a god, & a human king. Which is very helpful for giving depth & richness to the text - but is liable to lead to misunderstanding for people living in a totally different culture & time from that of Isaiah. 🙂
Why St. Jerome (for it was he, I think) identified Helel-Lucifer as the devil, I don’t know. No such identification arises from the text - which is an oracle against “the king of Babylon”. The imagery used in the oracle may be the reason - nothing was known about Helel or Shachar as divinities, until very recently: in the early 1930s, when a lot of Canaanite texts were discovered at Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit). satan does appear in the OT, but not in Isa. 14.

Sometimes, Fundamentalists are troubled because Revelation 22 refers to Our Lord as “the bright morning star” - they look at Isaiah 14, notice the same title, here used for Helel-Lucifer - & conclude, understandably though mistakenly, that Jesus is being called Lucifer as satan. Which is not the case.

Hope that helps 🙂

2. As to conspiracy in general: it is not possible to disprove, for a simple reason: conspiracy theories are founded on attitudes of ignorance & suspicion - so if someone doesn’t correct those two things instead of feeding them, that person will simply manage to discover conspiracies in the very lack of conspiracies: that things can be explained, means that the explanations are just a cover for whatever-it-may-be that the person is bothered about.

In the same way, this sort of thinking always manages to “prove” that that Cardinal Siri was rightful Pope, or that the Vatican keeps the names of every Protestant on a super-computer, or that the Moon landings were faked, becaujse the human intelligence is capable of proving anything to be true, that it needs to be true. It can be reassuring to know that the Papacy is engineered by satan, or that Paul VI was replaced by a double - because this kind of thing gives one’s insecurities a focus: one is able to identify Catholics, or Jews, or Masons, or whoever, as “the enemy”. Conspiracy theories are too useful & helpful to be disproved - if someone needs Hillary Clinton to be a giant wasp from Pluto, that person will eventually convince himself that, despite any appearances, that’s what she is. 🙂
 
Lucifer simply means light-bearer in Latin, and was not orginally a proper noun. It became that later.

Even then, though, it wasn’t a bad name. There was once a Catholic bishop named Lucifer, from Cagliari.

At least in his diocese, he is traditionally regarded as a Saint 😃

Note Well: no, Catholics have not canonised the devil 🙂
 
Why St. Jerome (for it was he, I think) identified Helel-Lucifer as the devil, I don’t know. No such identification arises from the text - which is an oracle against “the king of Babylon”. The imagery used in the oracle may be the reason - nothing was known about Helel or Shachar as divinities, until very recently: in the early 1930s, when a lot of Canaanite texts were discovered at Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit). satan does appear in the OT, but not in Isa. 14.
The Church disagrees with you. Augustine and Aquinas had no problem finding the devil in Isaiah 14:12 as I noted already in post #6. I will add to that this clear explanation from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
*How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations? And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like themost High. But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit. *(Isaiah 14:12-15)
This parable of the prophet is expressly directed against the King of Babylon, but both the early Fathers and later Catholic commentators agree in understanding it as applying with deeper significance to the fall of the rebel angel. And the older commentators generally consider that this interpretation is confirmed by the words of Our Lord to his disciples: “I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven” (Luke 10:18). For these words were regarded as a rebuke to the disciples, who were thus warned of the danger of pride by being reminded of the fall of Lucifer. But modern [c. 1917] commentators take this text in a different sense, and refer it not to the original fall of Satan, but his overthrow by the faith of the disciples, who cast out devils in the name of their Master. And this new interpretation, as Schanz observes, is more in keeping with the context.
This interpretation is most economically reiterated in Bishop Challoner’s note for the verse in his revision to the Douay-Rheims bible:
12 “O Lucifer”… O day star. All this, according to the letter, is spoken of the king of Babylon. It may also be applied, in a spiritual sense, to Lucifer the prince of devils, who was created a bright angel, but fell by pride and rebellion against God.
 
The Church disagrees with you. Augustine and Aquinas had no problem finding the devil in Isaiah 14:12 as I noted already in post #6. I will add to that this clear explanation from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

This interpretation is most economically reiterated in Bishop Challoner’s note for the verse in his revision to the Douay-Rheims bible:

1. Isa. 14 does not refer to the devil, even so - it** can** be applied to the devil - as happens in Luke 10 & Rev. 12 but that is not is same as saying that the literal meaning includes a reference to the devil; or that, because those NT passages refer to what Isa says, they mean what Isaiah meant. A simple illustration - people often use Biblical phrases in every day speech, because the Bible has influenced everyday speech - that they iuse words from the Bible, is no reason to take for granted that they always intend to mean what the quoted words meant in their original context.​

Isaiah 7.14 is a direct quotation from another Canaanite myth - the words are identical: does every reader who quotes the verse, intend to refer to the myth, rather than to Christ or to Hezekiah (who is probably referred to in Isaiah’s use of the words) ? Surely not. If words can never be re-applied to mean what originally they did not mean, then we cannot even speak of Christ Himself, because “anointed”, like “Saviour”, or “Lord” would then have to mean what it meant before being referred to Him.

The passages later than Isaiah 14, are re-applying it - not saying what it means. Jesus & John & Luke are not saying what Isa. 14 means, but applying its phrases & ideas to their own situations.

The literal meaning has to be found, if the text is to be interpreted correctly - as St.Thomas points out. Neither he nor Jerome had any means of knowing about Canaanite myths, Helel, Shachar, etc; nor did the authors of the Cath.Enc. - for the very good reason that those three sources are from a time between the loss of the Ugaritic texts & myths, & their re-discovery. Bishop Challoner could not say anything about Ugarit, for the same reasons. One cannot be expected to take account of texts of which nothing is known in one’s own time. For scholars since the discovery of those texts, OTOH, the case is different - they do know of them, they can read them, they can compare them with other info from the OT’s world - so they do. To ignore those texts, would be wrong. No responsible interpreter can ignore evidence - whether this agrees with previous, less well-informed, interpretations, or not. Only a weak faith is threatened by archaeology or scholarship, or needs to ignore uncomfortable or puzzling details.

Satan is not referred to, or mentioned, in Isaiah 14, so it is irresponsible & immoral to say that the text refers to him, because it does not. If the older interpretation were followed, despite the evidence of its being wrong, such an interpreter would be telling a lie for the good of the Faith - than which there is very little that is more revoltingly immoral. Tradition has its place, but it if it leads men to lie, it has become devilish.

The text cannot be understood without knowledge of Hebrew - a language St. Thomas did not know. There is no virtue in sticking to mistaken interpretations of Isa. 14 - old or not, the interpretation that understands helel as Lucifer is simply wrong, regardless of the personal authority of the maker of the mistake - the text & its setting, not the interpreter, nor the age of the interpretation, is what is important.

To insist that a text must be interpreted from its translated form, even if this ignores its meaning in the original language, makes no sense. The Declaration of Independence should not be interpreted as though it had been written in 20th-century German, & been influenced by Marxist political theory - no student of politics would be so stupid, & no lecturer would tolerate such stupidity. Yet that is what people are being asked to do, if they must not go back to what Isaiah said & meant in his own language & setting.

The Church managed to accommodate the rediscovery of Mesopotamian texts into its tradition of inyterpreting the Bible. It has also done the same with the discoveries at Ugarit. So it is ill-informed, as well as out-dated, to rely on the CE as though only the intepretations known when the CE was published - in 1913-22 IIRC, if so late - were allowed. That is simply not the case - there is no more reason to take the CE as the last word on Biblical interpretation, than there is to assume that because manned space flight was unknown in 1922, it therefore unknown in our time, in 2007.
 
Isa. 14 does not refer to the devil, even so - it** can** be applied to the devil - as happens in Luke 10 & Rev. 12 but that is not is same as saying that the literal meaning includes a reference to the devil; or that, because those NT passages refer to what Isa says, they mean what Isaiah meant…
You should be more careful. I did not address the literal meaning of Isaiah 14:12. There are four senses to scripture. When you’re done being pompous and insulting maybe you can explain the distinction between “referring to the devil” and Augustine’s saying “Isaiah…represents the devil under the person of the king of Babylon…”. Never mind, I forgot—that Holy Doctor’s opinion counts for nothing because he wrote before some Ugaritic tablet had the sand brushed off it. You may insist the devil is not referred to here, but compared to SS. Augustine and Aquinas, it hardly needs saying that you don’t measure up.
 
Job 3:9
May its morning stars become dark; may it wait for daylight in vain and not see the first rays of dawn,

Job 38:7
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

2 Peter 1:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Revelation 2:28
just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give him the morning star.
Re

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
 
Job 3:9
May its morning stars become dark; may it wait for daylight in vain and not see the first rays of dawn,

Job 38:7
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

2 Peter 1:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Revelation 2:28
just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give him the morning star.
Re

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Thanks for posting those 😃 - they help to show how the theme of the morning star is developed. One could also add references to​

  • host of heaven
  • Venus
  • stars
  • flock
    & so on - including “assembly/council/counsel of god/God/gods”.
I think it’s a great pity that Job 38.7 includes the rendering “angels” - there is much more to the “sons of god/God/gods” than that. IMHO, if one cannot see what it is that that the text says, one cannot see how it is
  • connected with
  • influenced by
  • alive in
  • enriched by
  • re-applied by
  • etc.
    other texts. The translation “angels” under-translates, because it gives the reader only some aspects (even when taken in context, as it should be) of the effect, the force, the intention, of the passage. Just about every word of the Bible is alive with meaning & power, etc. - to undertranslate, deadens the richness of its meaning.
Maybe this is unfair - seeing that any translation is going to be imperfect. It’s a pity not to have all the wealth of associations coming through where it can, that’s all 🙂

(A search on “sons of god/God/gods” would be fascinating… 🙂 )
 
You should be more careful. I did not address the literal meaning of Isaiah 14:12.

I did - because I’m interested in what it means. That’s what the thread is about​

There are four senses to scripture.

According to one count, which is quoted in the CCC. Other mediaevals counted nine. Study of the Bible hasn’t stood still; so what was useful in the MA, is not necessarily as useful now. There are aspects of the Bible the four senses miss - & the Bible takes priority over ideas about it. Maybe they will come back into favour - whether or not they do, what Isaiah 14 means is more important than what it is thought to be mean, or why, or by whom. To differ from past interpreters is not disrespectful - the interpreter serves the meaning of the Bible: who he or she may be, is less important than what God is saying through the Bible. The background of the OT, is part of the OT’s meaning, & far more is known now than was. All knowledge of the Bible is conditioned by time - scholarship now is not making the present into an absolute standard (though you seem to want to treat the past in that way); it’s using what it has - just as St. Augustine or St. Thomas used what they had. We have more helps to finding out what the Bible means than in the past: how can it be wrong to use them ? St. Thomas knew that time could affect meaning - he did not think his word was final. Biblical scholarship takes his historical-mindedness for granted, & fills it. It is in continuity with him & Tradition; your position isn’t, as it ignores most of Tradition 😦

The CCC is a source of catechetical instruction - not a guide to Biblical interpretation. The mention of the four senses is not directive, but descriptive: the CC has issued texts on the Bible; the CCC is not among them. It’s not a guide to the Bible, nor meant as one. It can’t answer questions that don’t suit the sort of book it is. To misuse the CCC by treating it as an oracle on all things Catholic leads nowhere.

If those Saints mustn’t be contradicted - why does the CC do so ? Why do they contradict themselves ? Logically, it ought to be a sin for Friar Thomas to have contradicted St. Augustine; he was only Friar Thomas when on earth - not St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church. If he could sinlessly contradict St. Augustine, others can sinlessly differ from him. Doctors can be wrong, no matter how holy. It is the Church, not any Doctor, that is to be heeded. Are we to ignore Australia, to agree with St. Augustine that there are no Antipodes ? They made the best of what they had - & no one can deny Catholics the liberty the CC allows, of using what they have or know. No bishop has condemned my ideas - two bishops condemned some of Thomas’s. Is he to be ignored ? Of course not. That he was fallible & limited does not mean he had nothing worth saying; the same applies to the scholars of today, saintly or no. When alive, Thomas was just another Dominican professor of theology - not A Saint & Doctor Who Must Not Be Contradicted; you would have said to him that he was very wrong to contradict St. Augustine - yet he did so. I differ from two Saints, he differed from one Saint - that, is the difference between moi now, & Thomas then.

Not that holiness is unimportant - but it can’t substitute for lack of acquired knowledge. It substitutes for it only exceptionally, miraculously; one cannot live on miracles. God has given us intellects - so we use them.

If you’re upset or scandalised, I really am very sorry - but that is not a reason to say what one knows is not true. To ignore what is can about the Bible is not truthful. I don’t ask you to be dishonest - you can’t expect of others.

…more…]
 
When you’re done being pompous and insulting
From someone who calls a poster “insulting”, that’s a bit rich. 😦
maybe you can explain the distinction between “referring to the devil” and Augustine’s saying “Isaiah…represents the devil under the person of the king of Babylon…”. Never mind, I forgot—that Holy Doctor’s opinion counts for nothing because he wrote before some Ugaritic tablet had the sand brushed off it.

I’ve explained - using the four senses.​

I see you don’t deal with the content of the post - only with its manner; but that doesn’t show the content is wrong
You may insist the devil is not referred to here, but compared to SS. Augustine and Aquinas, it hardly needs saying that you don’t measure up.

I don’t know what you mean by “pompous” - as for being “insulting”: I’m sorry, but your position is obscurantist. The issue is not who interpreters may be, but whether their work accounts adequately for what is interpreted. If their work is overtaken by events, then it, & what they worked on, may need revision. This is far from saying they are in all respects utterly irrelevant.​

It may be more pious to accept their insights because of who they are - that won’t save the value of them, because that depends on ignoring evidence; which is, that they did not, could not, see what moderns can - which implies nothing about moderns; only about what is available to them. Our descendants will see good things in the Bible we can’t; because (God willing) they will be better equipped. They will our correct our mistakes, just as we do those of past ages. The Church is supposed to grow up to the fullness of Christ - not live in the past all the time. It does not grow by ignoring what is said today, but by heeding all of Tradition.

If the interpretation of the Bible is treated as though the last word was said in the fifth or thirteenth century, that’s the choice of those who so choose - it’s not the Church’s choice. What counts is the meaning of the texts; not the person of the interpreter as such. (Otherwise, the credibility of Popes would depend on their moral character - which is an error.) Must weather-men be Saints before they are heard ? Neither - despite the differences - need scholars be.

If there is an intellectually solid reason for ignoring the passage of 1570 or 730 years of Biblical interpretation, please give it - to ignore the past won’t do. If the meaning of the text is less important than repeating the mistakes of the past merely because they were expressed by Saints, the interpretation of the Bible dies - truth is made inferior to a defective notion of tradition. Your position cuts the Church’s throat, & imprisons the Church in the past. Mine OTOH lets the past speak without drowning out the centuries in between, or deafening the Church to the present or future. It lets all of tradition speak; yours doesn’t.

I’d like to discuss these issues - but we have too little in common. I’ve tried to be clear (which is why the last post was so long). As the saying goes, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink”. I have no wish to repeat myself, so there is really nothing more to say. If you want to pm me about these issues - do.

This is far too long; for which I apologise. I’ve answered your questions. I’d rather discuss the thread now.
 
Hello,

The Latin is:

Quomodo cecidisti de caelo, lucifer, fili aurorae?

The Latin gives the word lucifer - which the older translations translated literally as Lucifer. Modern translations give a translation that denotes the meaning in English - light bearer, morning star, day star.

Note that Lucifer is not a proper name of the devil. It denotes the condition at the time of his fall from grace.
I agree, Latin is very mean with upper case.
The useage seems to be limited to Proper nouns, that is, personal names.
 
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