Lucifer ranking prior to his fall

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Sam_777

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Which ranking was Lucifer at prior to his fall?

These ranks are taken from the “Christian angelic hierarchy” wikipedia page:

First Sphere Angels: Seraphim/Cherubim/Ophanim.
Second Sphere Angels: Dominions/Virtues/Powers.
Third Sphere Angels: Principalities/Archangels/Angels.

Also, what prevent other Angels in the above ranks from committing the same sin/other sins?

If possible authentic Catholic source, since I’m trying to explain that to a Muslim relative.

Thank you all.
 
Sam 777 wants to know the Job Lucifer had in Heaven.

I remember hearing that Lucifer was a Seraphim (whose job it is to Serve God, in the Throne Room).
(But, hey** !** … I wasn’t there, so I don’t know for sure.
 
Sam_777 said:
Which ranking was Lucifer at prior to his fall?

These ranks are taken from the “Christian angelic hierarchy” wikipedia page:

First Sphere Angels: Seraphim/Cherubim/Ophanim.
Second Sphere Angels: Dominions/Virtues/Powers.
Third Sphere Angels: Principalities/Archangels/Angels.

Also, what prevent other Angels in the above ranks from committing the same sin/other sins?

If possible authentic Catholic source, since I’m trying to explain that to a Muslim relative.

Thank you all.
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It has been stated by many scholars, Lucifer was a Seraphim angel. Some say he shared the top position and others say he was #1. Other angels from other ranks also sinned and a lower ranking angel could have sinned worse than a higher ranking angel. Every angel’s sin was with different intensity.
 
Satan was the most powerful angel ever created, he was second in terms of power, under God though. I believe he was called the morning light, or light bearer too. He is said to be a very good looking man, who appears to be in his early 20s, with shoulder length blond curly hair.

So, we know before the fall, Satan was extremely powerful, but what I find strange…after he basically tells God he will not serve him, nor mankind anymore and he wants to be worshiped, he convinced 1/3 of the angels to follow him (which is a feat in itself IMO, still not sure how he did that!!), he did ALL that, and was kicked out of heaven BUT he retained all of his powers and abilities??? and some would argue he even gained some, I dont know any other angel that can be in 2 places at once, I thought only God had this ability, but apparently satan does too, as he can be in Hell as well as on earth, tempting people, it also appears all his demons have this ability too.

We all know Satan tempts and influences people, and he is pretty good at it, only have to look at the world to see this proof, but Ive never heard of any heavenly angels influencing anyone to the side of good, if they did, they dont seem to be that successful in our modern times, satan definitely is gaining more souls every day.

Thats another thing… how can a fallen angel claim souls as HIS? He is supposed to be being punished by God for the fall, but does not seem to me like he is being punished at all, seems like he got just what he wanted and has more power now than when he was in heaven.
 
Gods turning away from him (loss of Gods love) is the top of all punishment. And if he would repent God would love him again. How about his turning away from God and knowing the loss as part of the punishment. Either way i hope he works it out.

Lord, I am in this world to show Your mercy to others.
Other people will glorify You
by making visible the power of Your grace
by their fidelity and constancy to You.
For my part I will glorify You
by making known how good You are to sinners,
that Your mercy is boundless
and that no sinner no matter how great his offences
should have reason to despair of pardon.
If I have grievously offended You, My Redeemer,
let me not offend You even more
by thinking that You are not kind enough to pardon Me.
Amen.
St. Claude de la Colombiere
 
mikekle said:
I dont know any other angel that can be in 2 places at once, I thought only God had this ability, but apparently satan does too, as he can be in Hell as well as on earth, tempting people, it also appears all his demons have this ability too.
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St. Anthony had the ability to appear in two places at the same time during his lifetime.
 
Satan was as a previous poster stated was a very powerful angel who became so prideful and well some scolars claim jealous of God’s love for mankind that he was cast out of heaven he is supposed to be very beautiful and he isn’t all powerful like God is he was thought to be a seraphim and took with him a third of the angels to become him wicked army of darkness.

Remember in Job God actually calls him forth and asks him what he is doing and he replies walking here and there in the earth and God gives him permission to do horrible things to Job but to an extent.
 
Brooklyn78 said:
Gods turning away from him (loss of Gods love) is the top of all punishment. And if he would repent God would love him again. How about his turning away from God and knowing the loss as part of the punishment. Either way i hope he works it out.

Lord, I am in this world to show Your mercy to others.
Other people will glorify You
by making visible the power of Your grace
by their fidelity and constancy to You.
For my part I will glorify You
by making known how good You are to sinners,
that Your mercy is boundless
and that no sinner no matter how great his offences
should have reason to despair of pardon.
If I have grievously offended You, My Redeemer,
let me not offend You even more
by thinking that You are not kind enough to pardon Me.
Amen.
St. Claude de la Colombiere
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Actually there is no repenting for lucifer, his rejection of God was and is a perfect rejection. He experienced God in all his glory and experienced his perfect truth and chose himself over God. The catechism states (393) it is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect of the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death. "
 
WordHeavy said:
Actually there is no repenting for lucifer, his rejection of God was and is a perfect rejection. He experienced God in all his glory and experienced his perfect truth and chose himself over God. The catechism states (393) it is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect of the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death. "
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Im not so sure I believe that. From everything Ive read about God and his nature, he is the epitome of everlasting love and forgiveness, and grace, I just doubt God would ever turn anyone away, IF they are truly sorry and repent that is, I think thats the important factor and ONLY God can tell if someone is sincere.

The main reason I dont think forgiveness ends at death for humans is that God is eternal, our souls are eternal, everything is eternal, so why would he limit his forgiveness to a very short amount of time? I believe the bible says in many different ways that God love and forgiveness are unconditional and eternal, so this would mean it is good forever, if it only applied to us when alive, that would be conditional forgiveness and love, and ive never heard that term concerning God.

Plus, since our souls are eternal, that means our souls could ask for forgiveness, because it never died, the only thing that died was the earthly body, the soul never did, it kept on going and in Gods eyes, we ARE our souls, that is the way he sees us…as eternal souls of his.
 
From what I have been reading in public libraries when I travelled to the west, the following:
  1. Heavens are at least 3 levels if not 7, the closest one to THE MOST HIGH is called “Core”, where the “First Sphere Angels” present.
  2. Those “First Sphere Angels” and “Second Sphere Angels” cannot sin because they are protected by the core of THE MOST HIGH.
  3. The “Third Sphere Angels” can sin because they are not in the “Core”, probably in the second and third heavens, and Lucifer was in that level, because if he was in the first one he couldn’t have the ability to sin.
But what I could not find answer yet, what prevent any Angel in the “Third Sphere Angels” from sinning again?:confused:
 
As for the punishment of Lucifer, also from what I have been reading in public libraries when I travelled to the west:
  • Lucifer punishment came in stages, the first punishment was due to his pride, it degraded him from the second heaven to the third one, (the third heaven where Adam & Eve originally were prior to their fall).
  • The second punishment to Lucifer took place when JESUS was crucified, because the covenant between Lucifer and GOD was the ability to “strike the heel” of the “sinner humans” those who sinned through Adam, but when Lucifer influenced some people of the Jews to crucify JESUS, Lucifer broke that covenant with GOD and struck the heel of JESUS (the sinless).
  • The third punishment will be when JESUS returns, to satisfy global justice, since even if Lucifer tried to repent in the last minute, there are many human souls whom will not forgive him, so GOD respects those wills.
 
mikekle said:
Im not so sure I believe that. From everything Ive read about God and his nature, he is the epitome of everlasting love and forgiveness, and grace, I just doubt God would ever turn anyone away, IF they are truly sorry and repent that is, I think thats the important factor and ONLY God can tell if someone is sincere.

The main reason I dont think forgiveness ends at death for humans is that God is eternal, our souls are eternal, everything is eternal, so why would he limit his forgiveness to a very short amount of time? I believe the bible says in many different ways that God love and forgiveness are unconditional and eternal, so this would mean it is good forever, if it only applied to us when alive, that would be conditional forgiveness and love, and ive never heard that term concerning God.

Plus, since our souls are eternal, that means our souls could ask for forgiveness, because it never died, the only thing that died was the earthly body, the soul never did, it kept on going and in Gods eyes, we ARE our souls, that is the way he sees us…as eternal souls of his.
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There is no repentance after death, the church teaches as do the gospels that hell is eternal. There is no repentance after death because in the afterlife we are beyond space and time, there is no more time to ask for forgiveness and no time to repent because there is no future.In the particular judgment we have already been judged worthy of eternal life or eternal fire. As stated in the catechism (613) [To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him forever, by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called hell.] The use of our free will to eternally reject God, by no means takes away from God’s divine mercy, God does not commit the dammed to hell they have committed themselves to hell. In the gospel of Matthew we hear the Lord himself speaking of eternal life or eternal fire. Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but can not kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matt 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
 
mikekle said:
Im not so sure I believe that. From everything Ive read about God and his nature, he is the epitome of everlasting love and forgiveness, and grace, I just doubt God would ever turn anyone away, IF they are truly sorry and repent that is, I think thats the important factor and ONLY God can tell if someone is sincere.

The main reason I dont think forgiveness ends at death for humans is that God is eternal, our souls are eternal, everything is eternal, so why would he limit his forgiveness to a very short amount of time? I believe the bible says in many different ways that God love and forgiveness are unconditional and eternal, so this would mean it is good forever, if it only applied to us when alive, that would be conditional forgiveness and love, and ive never heard that term concerning God.

Plus, since our souls are eternal, that means our souls could ask for forgiveness, because it never died, the only thing that died was the earthly body, the soul never did, it kept on going and in Gods eyes, we ARE our souls, that is the way he sees us…as eternal souls of his.
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Souls are eternal, but our wills are incomplete while we are in time. Thus while in time we can change our minds because we do not yet comprehend all of the consequences of our choices, either good or bad.

Satan and his angels are not hampered by the constraints of temporal existence. Their wills are eternally set because they have the ability(as part of their nature) to know eternally the consequences of the choice they made.

In the next life we will also be granted this same attribute by God, the ability to know the eternal consequences of whatever it is we chose in this life, either for God or against Him.

Thus whatever state our wills exist in eternity will remain eternally set, the blessed will eternally know the blessedness of God and the true ugliness of sin and thus will never choose to sin again. Conversely Satan, his angels, and the reprobate who refused God in favor of themselves will never ask God for forgiveness because they will eternally prefer themselves over and above God.

The reason why no one in hell will be forgiven is not because God will refuse to forgive them, but because those in hell refuse to be forgiven. That is the “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” that Jesus tells us is the sin that will never be forgiven, in this age or the age to come.
 
Amandil said:
Souls are eternal, but our wills are incomplete while we are in time. Thus while in time we can change our minds because we do not yet comprehend all of the consequences of our choices, either good or bad.

Satan and his angels are not hampered by the constraints of temporal existence. Their wills are eternally set because they have the ability(as part of their nature) to know eternally the consequences of the choice they made.

In the next life we will also be granted this same attribute by God, the ability to know the eternal consequences of whatever it is we chose in this life, either for God or against Him.

Thus whatever state our wills exist in eternity will remain eternally set, the blessed will eternally know the blessedness of God and the true ugliness of sin and thus will never choose to sin again. Conversely Satan, his angels, and the reprobate who refused God in favor of themselves will never ask God for forgiveness because they will eternally prefer themselves over and above God.

The reason why no one in hell will be forgiven is not because God will refuse to forgive them, but because those in hell refuse to be forgiven. That is the “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” that Jesus tells us is the sin that will never be forgiven, in this age or the age to come.
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EVENTUALLY, Hell will be destroyed though…

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

this indicates at the very end, Hell itself will be destroyed, after all, how could hell be thrown into itself?

I believe it also states somewhere in Malachi,(spelling?), those in hell, their ashes will be under the soles of the feet of people walking (something along those lines, cant recall the exact verse), this indicates eventually the people will be ashes, so they will be completely burnt up, no more left to burn, so that is essentially an end of sorts, I dont think ashes are able to feel anything either.
 
Can someone please give me a bible reference to Lucifer’s fall.
 
mikekle said:
EVENTUALLY, Hell will be destroyed though…

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

this indicates at the very end, Hell itself will be destroyed, after all, how could hell be thrown into itself?

I believe it also states somewhere in Malachi,(spelling?), those in hell, their ashes will be under the soles of the feet of people walking (something along those lines, cant recall the exact verse), this indicates eventually the people will be ashes, so they will be completely burnt up, no more left to burn, so that is essentially an end of sorts, I dont think ashes are able to feel anything either.
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Hell is eternal

where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:48.
 
Amandil said:
Thus whatever state our wills exist in eternity will remain eternally set, the blessed will eternally know the blessedness of God and the true ugliness of sin and thus will never choose to sin again. Conversely Satan, his angels, and the reprobate who refused God in favor of themselves will never ask God for forgiveness because they will eternally prefer themselves over and above God.

The reason why no one in hell will be forgiven is not because God will refuse to forgive them, but because those in hell refuse to be forgiven. That is the “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” that Jesus tells us is the sin that will never be forgiven, in this age or the age to come.
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Nice comment.👍
 
McCartney said:
Can someone please give me a bible reference to Lucifer’s fall.
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**First Fall:
**Isaiah (14:12-15): “How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit.”

**Second Fall:
**Luke 10:18-20: “And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”

**Third Fall:
**Revelation 20:10: “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
 
Sam_777 said:
**First Fall:
**Isaiah (14:12-15): “How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit.”

**Second Fall:
**Luke 10:18-20: “And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”

**Third Fall:
**Revelation 20:10: “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
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Thanks.
 
Sam_777 said:
As for the punishment of Lucifer, also from what I have been reading in public libraries when I travelled to the west:
  • Lucifer punishment came in stages, the first punishment was due to his pride, it degraded him from the second heaven to the third one, (the third heaven where Adam & Eve originally were prior to their fall).
  • The second punishment to Lucifer took place when JESUS was crucified, because the covenant between Lucifer and GOD was the ability to “strike the heel” of the “sinner humans” those who sinned through Adam, but when Lucifer influenced some people of the Jews to crucify JESUS, Lucifer broke that covenant with GOD and struck the heel of JESUS (the sinless).
  • The third punishment will be when JESUS returns, to satisfy global justice, since even if Lucifer tried to repent in the last minute, there are many human souls whom will not forgive him, so GOD respects those wills.
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Hi Sam…I want to just clear up a few things about what Catholics believe concerning what this topic.

We believe there are 9 choirs of angels: Angels, Arch-angels, Virtues, Powers, Dominions, Principalities, Thrones, Cherubim, and Seraphim (ranked lowest to highest).

All Angels are capable of sin since they have all been given free-will and free-will is the ability to reject God (which is what sin is).

The Angels do not have our limited intellects nor did they have our fallen natures (no spirit is willing but flesh is weak type stuff), therefore when they chose sin they perfectly understood what they were choosing, its ramifications, and not in any sort of weakened state. Therefore all Angels who are going to sin already did when Satan fell. All of the angels have already made their decision regarding obedience to God, and that decision is final, there is no reason they would ever change their minds.

We believe Satan fell once and once only when he rejected God’s will. (There are several different theories about why he rejected God’s will with most of them essentially settling on pride being the cause. Some argue he wanted to be equal with God, some argue he knew of God’s plan to become man and grew envious, some claim he knew Mary would one day be exalted above all angels and wouldn’t stand for a human being greater than he.)

We believe Adam and Eve only existed on Earth until their deaths, they were not at one point in heaven then cast out.

Further we don’t have any beliefs about there being different heavens or different circles of heaven.

Hope that helps clarify some of our beliefs.

God Bless!
 
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