Lucifer ranking prior to his fall

[Sam_777]

Im assuming this vision was given to the nun as an intense way to encourage worship in God, I think alot of people are under the assumption that Satan and the demons ‘run’ and control Hell, but that is not true, Hell was created specifically for them, to be their place of punishment, not as a ‘home base of operations’, where demons can do whatever they want…remember they are being punished there as well, so Id like to see who/what is tormenting and torturing the demons there.

A good point…

 

[McCartney]

Well, then we have completely mis-understood the bible, as it clearly says ONLY the spirit goes on the afterlife and that except for 3 people, NO ONEs 'body can enter the afterlife.

Im assuming this vision was given to the nun as an intense way to encourage worship in God, I think alot of people are under the assumption that Satan and the demons ‘run’ and control Hell, but that is not true, Hell was created specifically for them, to be their place of punishment, not as a ‘home base of operations’, where demons can do whatever they want…remember they are being punished there as well, so Id like to see who/what is tormenting and torturing the demons there.

Unfortunately I have no first hand knowledge of the supernatural. I only know what is written in the bible. If Jesus said that the worm never dies and the flames are eternal, then who am I to refute it.

As for the vision, it is a private revelation and one may or may not believe in it. It could be (and this is my limited knowledge) that there is some sort of psychological torture. What makes a person go to hell? Among many, one is hatred of everything. Torture is one form of executing your hatred for others. Maybe the demons vent their anger from torture. And who is to say that they are not being tortured by others also.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

But still the question remains: Do humans inherit the scientific knowledge from the Angels? (assuming that Angels know absolute complete knowledge of all possible sciences in heavens and earth).

No. Humans discover it independently because the knowledge is independently and objectively already embedded in the objects. Objects are specific derivative instances in a long causal chain of the laws which God used in the assembly of the universe.

Now, if nobody is very smart or nobody cares or nobody has any free time, then of course nothing will be discovered or invented, but otherwise, if none of those conditions on people are true, then people will do the work necessary to find out things.

Scientists know many things, but some things they will never have the time or ability to figure out. What specific atoms did one of the atoms in the molecule of oxygen in the air at the tip of your nose bump into when it was together with them in the supernova that gave rise to the primordial dust cloud that condensed into the earth, and where are they now? We will never know, nor will even the most powerful and able scientists of the far future be able to tell you. Would angels? Maybe, or maybe not. Would God? I don’t see why not; He is infinitely powerful and infinitely knowledgeable. On the other hand, why did that supernova blow up?* That’s something the scientists of today probably already know.

*It was too big and too old (and probably fairly young compared to the age of our sun). That’s what big old stars do, they blow themselves to smithereens. Smaller stars, like our sun, burn fairly hot for a few billion years, swell up, and then cool off and go dark when their fuel runs out. Even smaller stars like red dwarfs can burn for trillions of years, but they aren’t very hot or bright.

 

[mikekle]

No. Humans discover it independently because the knowledge is independently and objectively already embedded in the objects. Objects are specific derivative instances in a long causal chain of the laws which God used in the assembly of the universe.

Now, if nobody is very smart or nobody cares or nobody has any free time, then of course nothing will be discovered or invented, but otherwise, if none of those conditions on people are true, then people will do the work necessary to find out things.

Scientists know many things, but some things they will never have the time or ability to figure out. What specific atoms did one of the atoms in the molecule of oxygen in the air at the tip of your nose bump into when it was together with them in the supernova that gave rise to the primordial dust cloud that condensed into the earth, and where are they now? We will never know, nor will even the most powerful and able scientists of the far future be able to tell you. Would angels? Maybe, or maybe not. Would God? I don’t see why not; He is infinitely powerful and infinitely knowledgeable. On the other hand, why did that supernova blow up?* That’s something the scientists of today probably already know.

*It was too big and too old (and probably fairly young compared to the age of our sun). That’s what big old stars do, they blow themselves to smithereens. Smaller stars, like our sun, burn fairly hot for a few billion years, swell up, and then cool off and go dark when their fuel runs out. Even smaller stars like red dwarfs can burn for trillions of years, but they aren’t very hot or bright.

The real question should be…’ To what extent will God let human invention and knowledge continue on’?

I ask this after watching a documentary on a certain university that has been doing alot of research into death of a person, their body, mind, body parts, brain, conscious, etc. They are getting close to being able to actually ‘download’ a persons ‘self’ to a kind of harddrive, not really a computer harddrive, hard to explain, you would really have had to seen this documentary, but apparently, they are getting close to being able to keep a persons brain/ conscious self of a person alive, even if their body gets old and fails!! They went into detail about how this is done, but it is highly technical and to understand it, a person really has to be intelligent in this area (which I am not).

Im wondering if humans do reach a point, where they can literally keep people from dying, and just transplant a persons conscious self/ thoughts, brain, etc into another ‘body’, then humans will have basically beaten death…I doubt God would allow this to go on for too long, but then it gets into God messing with our free will, so its interesting to ponder about, whether God would allow human technology to reach a certain level?!!

I was not even aware any such research was being done, but Im assuming they are not the only university involved in this kind of thing, and they seem to be making alot of progress, so maybe in the next 50-100 yrs, no one will die, in the sense they do now?

 

[Sam_777]

No. Humans discover it independently because the knowledge is independently and objectively already embedded in the objects. Objects are specific derivative instances in a long causal chain of the laws which God used in the assembly of the universe.

Now, if nobody is very smart or nobody cares or nobody has any free time, then of course nothing will be discovered or invented, but otherwise, if none of those conditions on people are true, then people will do the work necessary to find out things.

Scientists know many things, but some things they will never have the time or ability to figure out. What specific atoms did one of the atoms in the molecule of oxygen in the air at the tip of your nose bump into when it was together with them in the supernova that gave rise to the primordial dust cloud that condensed into the earth, and where are they now? We will never know, nor will even the most powerful and able scientists of the far future be able to tell you. Would angels? Maybe, or maybe not. Would God? I don’t see why not; He is infinitely powerful and infinitely knowledgeable. On the other hand, why did that supernova blow up?* That’s something the scientists of today probably already know.

*It was too big and too old (and probably fairly young compared to the age of our sun). That’s what big old stars do, they blow themselves to smithereens. Smaller stars, like our sun, burn fairly hot for a few billion years, swell up, and then cool off and go dark when their fuel runs out. Even smaller stars like red dwarfs can burn for trillions of years, but they aren’t very hot or bright.

Hey Pat, that was an interesting comment…

 

[Sam_777]

The real question should be…’ To what extent will God let human invention and knowledge continue on’?

Probably till the “Souls” quota for humans on earth reach its target.

Sometimes I wonder what would be that quota number? how many souls will GOD allow to be on earth before the judgment day!

 

[Pat_Albertson]

The real question should be…’ To what extent will God let human invention and knowledge continue on’?

I ask this after watching a documentary on a certain university that has been doing alot of research into death of a person, their body, mind, body parts, brain, conscious, etc. They are getting close to being able to actually ‘download’ a persons ‘self’ to a kind of harddrive, not really a computer harddrive, hard to explain, you would really have had to seen this documentary, but apparently, they are getting close to being able to keep a persons brain/ conscious self of a person alive, even if their body gets old and fails!

Im wondering if humans do reach a point, where they can literally keep people from dying, and just transplant a persons conscious self/ thoughts, brain, etc into another ‘body’, then humans will have basically beaten death…I doubt God would allow this to go on for too long, but then it gets into God messing with our free will, so its interesting to ponder about, whether God would allow human technology to reach a certain level?!

I was not even aware any such research was being done, but Im assuming they are not the only university involved in this kind of thing, and they seem to be making alot of progress, so maybe in the next 50-100 yrs, no one will die, in the sense they do now?

That won’t happen. I started working on a project back in 1983. I wanted to build a robot brain. I had some insights then that I wanted to put into hardware (or wetware) because I was deeply inspired by From Being To Becoming by Ilya Prigogine (1917 - 2003; 1977 Nobel Prize winner for chemistry).

After a time, I realized that that was too ambitious a project. Nevertheless, I saw that it might be possible to build whole new classes of machines.

I have searched many times on the internet to see if anybody else has had the same ideas, but it appears not. Nevertheless, one conclusion that I drew back then, which has been iterated and reiterated by many other people (among them Michio Kaku) was that the brain is not a digital computer (and if they ever get quantum computers to work, they will find out that the brain is not a quantum computer either - quantum computers, if they can be made to work, will be circuit for circuit vastly more powerful than today’s most powerful computers).

I spent many years as an atheist and that still informs much of my thinking, so I would probably be considered a rather slack wishy-washy Catholic by most on this forum.

And so, to the heart of your question and observation: will God put a limit on downloading people’s consciousnesses into digital computers? My answer: He already has. The brain is not a digital computer, and expecting that one can download one’s consciousness into a digital computer is about as likely as expecting to raise goldfish in the hot oil of the crankcase of an 18 wheeler driving cross-country.

The brain, and life in general, are far from equilibrium biochemical reactions. The phase space attractor spaces of such states are nanoscopic compared to the conventional equilibrium state (heat death) of thermodynamics, but still consist of numerical details that are vast beyond human comprehension.

The numerical mathematical details of far from equilibrium states are rather like the scenario I described with regard to the oxygen atom at the end of your nose; ordinarily such states try to adhere rather stringently to fixed semi-permanent patterns, but sometimes they ‘listen’ to molecular noise and then go off on a whole new tangent (and then to predict the resulting details you would have to have the sort of abilities that would enable you to discuss collisions between the oxygen atom in the air at the end of your nose and the particular atoms in the supernova that preceded out solar system). Neural firing patterns (an example of the good) are like that, and so are some cancers (an example of the bad).

Electronics, even though computers seem so alive to us, are like the gears in your car’s transmission, cold and dead and near the gigantic ultimate attractor of final thermodynamic equilibrium. Your brain is warm and wet, sensitive to tiny perturbations (although not always, but it knows when to be), and ‘close’ to a relatively tiny far from equilibrium attractor (tiny in comparison to the gigantic one of thermodynamic equilibrium, but inconceivably vast in comparison to anything any human has ever known, or ever will know).

And the ‘scientists’, the ‘scientists’ who think they’re going to model neurons on digital computers and then download consciousness into their models? They’re barking up the wrong tree, and are doomed to disappointment.

Anyway, that’s my opinion on that subject. I’ve read scads of articles on this sort of subject, and I don’t believe even a little bit in pop-sci stuff like downloading one’s consciousness into a digital computer. I think people write about such things to attract an audience, and that’s about the size of it.

Could I be wrong? I suppose so, but if so I’ve got lots of good company . . . and I have lots of reasons, more than I can say here, why I think I’m right.

Now, could there ever be a time when there is something you can download your consciousness into, some brain-like green guck that needs a thick sticky white ‘blood’ filled with nutrients (or fuel) and oxygen, like the android in the film Alien? That’s a different question and I think the answer to that is a possible yes, but the details of that are so murky that nobody can say as yet whether the end result of such a thing would be you or another creature with your memories and its own personality. At least that scenario respects far from equilibrium thermodynamics, thermodynamic chemistry, and biochemistry.

Hey Pat, that was an interesting comment…

Thank you.