Lucifer

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vtech2009

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I don’t really understand the fall. How could a very intelligent angel chose pride, and then decide to reject God? Was it his choice, he rather have immense pain for himself and others, just to be a certain “God” of his own?

Did Lucifer go through something we are going through now on this world, meaning, we are deciding whether we want to choose God or not?

How do we know if this will be one and final choice, and if there won’t be another and another choice, or constant choosing? I guess we base it on God’s words that it’s eternal? God did not tell Lucifer that his angelship was eternal?
 
vtech2009 said:
I don’t really understand the fall. How could a very intelligent angel chose pride, and then decide to reject God? Was it his choice, he rather have immense pain for himself and others, just to be a certain “God” of his own?

Did Lucifer go through something we are going through now on this world, meaning, we are deciding whether we want to choose God or not?

How do we know if this will be one and final choice, and if there won’t be another and another choice, or constant choosing? I guess we base it on God’s words that it’s eternal? God did not tell Lucifer that his angelship was eternal?
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I hear this explained that an angle such as Lucifer would not have pondered anything since he would have known the answer the instant the question was asked. Its not like he had to ponder and make a decision. Lucifer simply did not want to be the servant of man. He felt more exalted and greater and could not reconcile this. I doubt it has any correlation to what we have today since he knew very well there is a God.
 
vtech2009 said:
I don’t really understand the fall. How could a very intelligent angel chose pride, and then decide to reject God? Was it his choice, he rather have immense pain for himself and others, just to be a certain “God” of his own?
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Have you ever seen a human being completely consumed by their pride? Imagine that to a literally infinite scale and you may have some understanding of why Lucifer made the decision he did.
Did Lucifer go through something we are going through now on this world, meaning, we are deciding whether we want to choose God or not?
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I don’t think it’s really comparable. We are taught that at the moment of their creation the angels were given a choice, and that their choice was irrevocable once determined. It is irrevocable because they had absolute knowledge of what this decision meant, whereas we don’t, which is why God gives us so many chances. Now, time is not a thing to God, so the “moment” of their creation may mean something we cannot comprehend. We don’t know exactly what it was like, but we DO know that they only got once chance.
How do we know if this will be one and final choice, and if there won’t be another and another choice, or constant choosing? I guess we base it on God’s words that it’s eternal? God did not tell Lucifer that his angelship was eternal?
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We know it is final and eternal because God told it is was final and eternal. God did tell Lucifer that his decision was an eternal and irrevocable one. His angel-ship is also eternal and irrevocable. Lucifer has always been and will always be an Angle, created by God to worship God. The fact that Lucifer rejected the calling of his nature and turned against God doesn’t change that he is irrevocably an angel. What his decision did do is warp his entire being and set it in absolute opposition against God.

Unfortunately, it is all to easy to point to examples of Lucifer’s sin and rejection in our own world. Consider those priests that abused children. They were ordained priests, men of God. They were instructed in the Faith, and made gravely aware of the consequences of any number of actions. Despite all of that; despite literally being able to act in persona Christi (In the person of Christ), and being able to literally bring Jesus Christ physically into the world through the Eucharist; those men chose to act in a way completely contrary to the God whom they’d sworn to serve…
 
vtech2009 said:
I don’t really understand the fall. How could a very intelligent angel chose pride, and then decide to reject God? Was it his choice, he rather have immense pain for himself and others, just to be a certain “God” of his own?

Did Lucifer go through something we are going through now on this world, meaning, we are deciding whether we want to choose God or not?

How do we know if this will be one and final choice, and if there won’t be another and another choice, or constant choosing? I guess we base it on God’s words that it’s eternal? God did not tell Lucifer that his angelship was eternal?
Click to expand...
I don’t think intelligence in any way impedes someone to choose evil; intelligence is no guarantee of impeccability. In fact, I think an intelligent mind, if driven off course, can be a huge catalyst for immoral and sinful thoughts.
 
Micosil said:
I don’t think intelligence in any way impedes someone to choose evil; intelligence is no guarantee of impeccability. In fact, I think an intelligent mind, if driven off course, can be a huge catalyst for immoral and sinful thoughts.
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Lucifer didn’t chose evil he created it by his action. What he created was the absence of God and took it upon himself to pull Gods creation with him. His vehicle an apple (if you believe the literal of that) IT was inevitable and God allowed it.

Lucifer fell long before man was created I would imagine that had the fruit not been eaten he would have just remained fallen with no impact on humanity. However that free will thing really got us now didn’t it…but in the end its all for the glory of God.
 
Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking and others are what we call very intelligent but none of them believe in God.

Lucifer was/is intelligent but his pride was so much that he didn’t want to serve, it was his choice.

Jesus Divine Mercy to St. Faustina.

1332 Second day. As I was meditating on the sin of the Angels and their immediate punishment, I asked Jesus why the Angels had been punished as soon as they had sinned. I heard a voice: Because of their profound knowledge of God. No person on earth, even though a great saint, has such knowledge of God as an Angel has. Nevertheless, to me who am so miserable, You have shown Your mercy, O God, and this, time and time again. You carry me in the bosom of Your mercy and forgive me every time that I ask Your forgiveness with a contrite heart.
 
Nelka said:
Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking and others are what we call very intelligent but none of them believe in God.

Lucifer was/is intelligent but his pride was so much that he didn’t want to serve, it was his choice.

Jesus Divine Mercy to St. Faustina.

1332 Second day. As I was meditating on the sin of the Angels and their immediate punishment, I asked Jesus why the Angels had been punished as soon as they had sinned. I heard a voice: Because of their profound knowledge of God. No person on earth, even though a great saint, has such knowledge of God as an Angel has. Nevertheless, to me who am so miserable, You have shown Your mercy, O God, and this, time and time again. You carry me in the bosom of Your mercy and forgive me every time that I ask Your forgiveness with a contrite heart.
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👍 yes pride is the downfall of angels and many in mankind.
 
Micosil said:
I don’t think intelligence in any way impedes someone to choose evil; intelligence is no guarantee of impeccability. In fact, I think an intelligent mind, if driven off course, can be a huge catalyst for immoral and sinful thoughts.
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The catechism says:
CCC 393:
It is the irrevocable character of their [the angels’] choice and not a defect in the infinite Divine Mercy that makes the Angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels’ after their fall just as there is no repentance for men after death.’’ (St John Damascene De Fede Orth. 2.4)
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I don’t think intelligence was what doomed the fallen angels. I think that unlike humans, once an angel makes a decision there’s no turning back.

My Parable of Burning DVDs
I compare this to recording DVDs. Angels are like DVD-Rs. You can only record on them once. It will never change so if the recording is bad, all you can do is let it find it’s way to the incinerator. Humans are like DVD-RW. It might be tough figuring out how, but with the help of technical support, you can rewrite that DVD until you hit that permanent control. If the recording’s good, it goes in the collection. If the recording is bad, all you can do is let it find it’s way to the incinerator.
 
Antegin said:
The catechism says:

I don’t think intelligence was what doomed the fallen angels. I think that unlike humans, once an angel makes a decision there’s no turning back.

My Parable of Burning DVDs
I compare this to recording DVDs. Angels are like DVD-Rs. You can only record on them once. It will never change so if the recording is bad, all you can do is let it find it’s way to the incinerator. Humans are like DVD-RW. It might be tough figuring out how, but with the help of technical support, you can rewrite that DVD until you hit that permanent control. If the recording’s good, it goes in the collection. If the recording is bad, all you can do is let it find it’s way to the incinerator.
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Indeed, intelligence per se didn’t, however, this intelligence may have contributed to the development of pride and thus their fall. Note that when Jesus is born it is to simple farmers or whatever whom the angels reveal the divine nature of Jesus. Not implying these farmers may not have been intelligent, but they were more than likely simple and humble.

I wonder what Purgatory is in that parable. 😃
 
The angel refused to worship a god who would also become a man. He refused to worship Jesus.

*And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” (Hebrews 1:6)

Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,
(Hebrews 2:7)*

The angel saw worship of a man as beneath him.

-Tim-
 
Micosil said:
I don’t think intelligence in any way impedes someone to choose evil; intelligence is no guarantee of impeccability. In fact, I think an intelligent mind, if driven off course, can be a huge catalyst for immoral and sinful thoughts.
Click to expand...
In humans, yes, this is true, but I dont think this same principle applies to angelic beings.
 
Why would God create angels that can have pride, that can reject God?
I guess in that sense angels had the same choice we have now? Except they had more knowledge, so no way to be forgiven, as we have little knowledge, and can sin, fall, and come back to Jesus?
 
vtech2009 said:
Why would God create angels that can have pride, that can reject God?
I guess in that sense angels had the same choice we have now? Except they had more knowledge, so no way to be forgiven, as we have little knowledge, and can sin, fall, and come back to Jesus?
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If they can’t reject Him, then they can’t love Him
 
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