Luke 1:26 - 33

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RobinK said:
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 o a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said , ‘Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.’ 29 But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30 The angel said to her. ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. 31 AND NOW, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will call him Jesus. 32 He will be great, and he will be calledd the son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there weill be no end.’ 34 Mary said to the angel,’ How can this be, since I am a virgin?’ The angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God.
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My reference is :
quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/browse.html
What’s yours? I’d like to read it.
 
RobinK said:
She would question because she wasn’t technically married yet
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Nor was she technically pregnant yet!
RobinK said:
Verse 31 clearly says that AND NOW you shall conceive…, Whether it happened that day or two weeks later, she still wasn’t married and probably knew that she wasn’t going to be for a while.
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Where do you see in anything Gabriel says, any hint of when she would conceive? Wouldn’t a woman about to be married naturally think Gabriel was speaking of her marriage to Joseph? What would make her think it would happen before she and Joseph had sex?
 
RobinK said:
Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant at the time and Mary went to visit her before she gave birth to John. At the time, Mary was also pregnant so I think that it’s safe to say that withing that span of 3 months she was still not married to Joseph (or rather therir one year waiting period wasn;t up) And nowhere does it say that She and Joseph went to see Elizabeth.
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Do you think that while Gabriel was talking to her, prior to her asking “how”, she somehow knew she would conceive by the Holy Spirit? How would she have known? What happens in the next three months doesn’t affect her question in verse 34. She didn’t know until she asked.
 
Here’s the new Jerusalem Bible

Again it says that she “will conceive” and that she “has no knowledge of man” that latter again means only that she is a virgin…then it says the Holy spirit “will” come upon her. THEN SHE LEAVES AT THAT TIME TO JUDAH TO VISIT ELIZABETH.

27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the House of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28 He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’
29 She was deeply disturbed by these words and asked herself what this greeting could mean,
30 but the angel said to her, ‘Mary, do not be afraid; you have won God’s favour.
31 Look! You are to conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus.
32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David;
33 he will rule over the House of Jacob for ever and his reign will have no end.’
34 Mary said to the angel, ‘But how can this come about, since I have no knowledge of man?’
35 The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.
36 And I tell you this too: your cousin Elizabeth also, in her old age, has conceived a son, and she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month,
37 for nothing is impossible to God.’
38 Mary said, ‘You see before you the Lord’s servant, let it happen to me as you have said.’ And the angel left her.
39 Mary set out at that time and went as quickly as she could into the hill country to a town in Judah.
40 She went into Zechariah’s house and greeted Elizabeth.
41 Now it happened that as soon as Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leapt in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 She gave a loud cry and said, ‘Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43 Why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord?
44 Look, the moment your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leapt for joy.
45 Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled.’
46 And Mary said: My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour;
48 because he has looked upon the humiliation of his servant. Yes, from now onwards all generations will call me blessed,
 
It says in the preface that " It has received the ecclesiastical approval of the Catholic Bishops of both The US and Canda"
 
Tom said:
Marriage isn’t “basically” for procreation, if it were Zachary and Elizabeth would not have remained married would they? Elizabeth was believed to be barren. Sexual relations, and procreation are results of marriage, not the reason for it.
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Failure to procreate does not mean that the couple did not intend to procreate. Zachary and Elizabeth were in fact praying that they would have a child. They were not planning to avoid procreation, that is for sure.

But in the case we have at hand, the couple intended that they would not know each other sexually in their entire married life. Thus we say that they intended not to procreate. So what did they intend in their marriage?
 
Excellent point! What would the purpose of their marriage be then?
 
I’m still not exactly sure what you were arguing. All your quotes still only prove that she was a virgin at the time. There is nothing to prove that she and Joseph planned to remain that way. I know that I wasn’t there when the annunciation happened and neither were you (nor wasSt. Luke for that matter). What I do know is that lost of things get lost in translation and that from the two versions I quoted it seems that the conception probably took place at the time that Mary told Gabriel that she accepts the will of God over her own.

That’s why she would say that she was a virgin of knew nothing of man or had no husband. That being said I do believe that she was “Ever Virgin” and that Jesus was the only child she ever bore. Do I think that when she and Joseph planned to marry that was the case? No, I think that they probably planned to have a normal life like the rest of Jewish society but I think that Jesus changed all that and that His mother is, and will always be purity itself.
 
agangbern said:
Failure to procreate does not mean that the couple did not intend to procreate. Zachary and Elizabeth were in fact praying that they would have a child. They were not planning to avoid procreation, that is for sure.

But in the case we have at hand, the couple intended that they would not know each other sexually in their entire married life. Thus we say that they intended not to procreate. So what did they intend in their marriage?
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RobinK said:
Excellent point! What would the purpose of their marriage be then?
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Do some research into a group of zealous Jews of the first century called the Essenes. They were one of the three leading Jewish sects during the first and second century, the other two groups were the Pharises and the Sadducees. There isn’t a lot written about them, but they, for the most part, were celibate, forsaking sex for the kingdom of God. Some did marry for convenience sake, and to raise children who were orphans from the local communities. Their name, originally Essene is derived from the word which means “holy”. They are first mentioned around 200 - 150 b.c. and disappear from history around the turn of the second century a.d., although a group still claims their name.
I’m not saying Mary and Joseph were Essenes, but it was not unheard of to devote your lives to God and forgo sexual pleasure. So the purpose of marriage was mutual benefit and love, just without sex.
 
Tom: Great reflection and meditation questions/thoughts. However, I think the other posts hit on the fundamental “hurdle” or “challenge” when we approach Mary’s reaction and her words to Archangel Gabriel…She is literally “full of grace”…with no weaknesses…full of the “sanctifying life of God”… she has no original sin or consequences of original sin…and we all clearly do…so we are not able to think as she thinks/thought:

*CCC 418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).

*Frank Sheed’s: To Know Christ Jesus (pg 32)
*“Gabriel’s opening words are Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.” Mary made no reply; Gabriel misunderstood her silence. Perhaps remembering Zechariah, he told her not to be afraid. Clearly, he did not yet know her very well. Contact with Zechariah was no preparation at all for understanding Mary of Nazareth."

*Note: Frank Sheed even asks the question:
*“Did the angel appear, visibly I mean? Luke does not say so this time, though he does say that Zechariah saw him…Mary would not have needed these outward showings of Gabriel’s splendor: for her own was greater.”
To Know Christ Jesus (pg 31-32).

*Read the account of the appearance of Gabriel to Zechariah and compare it to his visit to Mary…and you will see what Mr. Sheed is getting at…his precision in reading the gospel words is quite remarkable.

*Sheed also notes that the words: *** "…blessed art thou among women…" (most scholars think it was Elizabeth…not Gabriel who said them)…would have gotten Mary’s attention because she knew how they were applied to two other women the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures):
​
"Jael​
​
who saved God’s people by hammering a tent peg into the skull of the enemy leader Sisera (Judges 4: 21)…and Judith who had saved God’s people by cutting off the head of the enemy leader Holofernes (Judith 13:6-8)."
To Know Christ (pg33)…Do these verses sound similar to God’s prediction to the Satan in the Garden about the Woman who will one day crush his head?..and save (not redeem) his people!

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The key to me is Mary’s statement…."…how can this be…I know not man…"…she is asking God two things:…if you have already approved and accepted my consecration to you as a perpetual virgin…it is your will that I have carried out as a consecrated perpetual virgin…and you concurred that I will have no relations with a man…so, I will need your help…to bear your Messiah." Then Gabriel clarifies (that God is honoring her consecration to him as his will for her) and that that the Holy Spirit will overshadow her and the son born of her will not oly be the Messiah…but will be the Son of God…clearly, not the Son of Joseph. So Mary is really confirming that her virginity all along was God’s will even though she is betrothed to Joseph…I believe that even without being chosen to be the Mother of God-The Messiah…she would not have had sexual relations with Joseph…because she was already consecrated as a pepetual virgin…which fits with tradition (small “t”) that Joseph was quite a bit older and also that he died when Jesus was still a very young man.

I hope this helps (not in answering anything…but in providing “food for thought”) in the sense that it provides a possible or plausible perspetive on Mary’s meeting with Gabriel.

One last thing…one of the visionaries in a Marian apparition (I believe that it was Sister Lucia at Fatima) asked the Blessed Virgin…what part of the “Hail Mary…” prayer is her most favorite part?..Blessed Mother Mary answered: “…the Lord is with you…” AMEN!

Pax Christi
 
Tom said:
So the purpose of marriage was mutual benefit and love, just without sex.
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Here is what the Catechism says about the purpose of marriage:

*1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84 *
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm#I

I do not know how the couple would fulfill that purpose of procreation if they would plan not to engage in sex throughout their marriage.
 
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