Luke 16:19-31 Why are there only two fixed "States" in eternity mentioned here?

[zz912]

At the Coming of The Lord :those alive at the time, in an instance (" or twinkling of the eye") are seen with Christ( "and so shall we ever be with The Lord ")

At the judgement only two states ( or character ) are seen : " sheep and goats".

The Church teaches the same thing. Just as Revelation and the Church teach, Purgatory and all other states will be ended.

What is your explanation for Revelation telling us that Death and Hades will be destroyed?

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard Lyons;11633854:

First, 1 Corinthians Chapter 3 which reads as follows:

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I have yet to see a Protestant explanation of these verses. How under the idea of Sola Fide can one be saved but only as escaping through the flames while suffering loss? The only explanation for what St. Paul writes here is an understanding of Purgatory. You see if what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward, if it is burned up, he will still be saved but will be purified prior to receiving his reward in heaven. Of course this does not mean a literal fire, God’s love is often referred to as a fire, this is a metaphor for the sanctification process. Many protestants know the praise song, Refiner’s Fire, and this is that same sort of fire.

Yes Jon interesting verse ,as I would not call my self a Protestant , I can only offer, as a former Roman Catholic,a possible alternative,and do not claim to exhaust the possible meaning or depth in any verse of scripture.

The first thing I would underline and indeed as you have already shown ,is that it is the believers work (or that which he has been building ,upon the true foundation)that in the context ,is predominantly in view here.

At the beginning of the chapter Paul is addressing the subject of carnality and

"divisions,are ye not carnal,and walk as men?("3:3)

This is what they were building upon :The Apostles true foundation.
This is what Paul,I believe ,is still discussing in our passage.and if these things are not addressed ,it will very soon be judged ,condemned,and " burnt off" straight away ,through or,In the refiners fire.

If this happens to the end that he "falls asleep " in the outworking of it, the doer (or true believer ) will forfeit reward in eternity,but he himself will "not be condemned " but still undergo this painful process of purification.

This can be seen happening( on earth) in 1Cor30:29-33

Because they are " not discerning the Lords body " "many are weak and sickly among you,and many sleep "; this being judgement from The Lord “that we should not be condemned with the world”

Paul also (1cor 5:4,5 ) acts “To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh”( for incest)" wherefore?

“For the destruction of the flesh,that the spirit may be saved in the day of The Lord Jesus”

 

[Techno2000]

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Also an interesting verse ,the context ,I think,is contrasted,verse 17 “For it is better,if the will of God be so,that ye suffer for well doing ,than for evil doing.”

Christ(verse 18) certainly suffered,we none of us doubt ,for well doing.

Verse 19 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison”

The word preached here cannot (we would both of us accept ) mean, the Gospel being offered to the dead,to be saved .((by the recent events at Golgotha)

But as Peter is talking of the disobedient at the time of Noah ,( as opposed to Noah and the seven: that is the obedient),
This preaching then ,was to those disobedient,now prisoners(as opposed to those at liberty in “Abrahams bosom” ,Noah and family being comforted here also)

Could it not mean here ,that the newly crucified Christ 's(with the visible five wounds speaking or preaching that truth which they express) preached message ,was only an affirmation of that which had already been established ,during the disobedient in their time on the earth,( Mark 16:16 “but he that believeth not shall be damned”) this truth being evidenced by their being in prison?

Ephesians 4:9 “(now that he ascended ,what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth.”)

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard Lyons;11633854:

One final verse that I like to point out is often used to support the doctrine of the Communion of Saints, but I think there is some application here as well. Hebrews 12:22-24 states:

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

How were these spirits of the righteous made perfect? Through God’s purifying love, through the refiner’s fire, through the state of being that is purgatory.

There seems to be here a contrasting of the old mount Sinai where God was unapproachable except through Moses ,who himself said at the sight,“I exceedingly fear and quake:”) -verse 21-
With that assurance begotten by the suffering of “the firstborn”,granted unto those privileged through “the sprinkled blood”(verse 24) brought into the New Testament ( Mount Sion)

As the “church of the firstborn” encompasses ( see Rom 8:29 “he might be the firstborn among many brethren”) all who have come to mount Sion ,(that is believers ,whose names are written in heaven and alive on earth,)

Who ,as well as all those seen as perfect in heaven already, ( at the time of the writers writing) "the spirits of just men made perfect " How then does the writer to the Hebrews know ,(since "the spirits "don’t yet have their resurrection bodies) that this work of purification is complete and is not still ongoing.? (Since the “Church of the firstborn” seems to point to all who have slept in Christ ,up to that point,now seen in heaven)

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Thanks Bernard! I’m curious about your statement though, that there can’t be opportunity for cleansing of sins after death. What makes you say that? Is there anything in Scripture that supports that statement?

Hebrews 9:27 “And as it is appointed appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement”

I believe the only possible conclusion from the above verse of scripture ,is that the next event after one dies ,is “the judgement” ,(seat of almighty God) for the departed soul ,there is therefore nothing between the last judgement ,and the day of his death.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hebrews 9:27 “And as it is appointed appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement”

The only possible conclusion from this verse is that the next event after one dies : is “the judgement” ; there is therefore nothing between (for the departed soul) judgement and death.

What does the judgement entail?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Hebrews 9:27 “And as it is appointed appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement”

I believe the only possible conclusion from the above verse of scripture ,is that the next event after one dies ,is “the judgement” ,(seat of almighty God) for the departed soul ,there is therefore nothing between the last judgement ,and the day of his death.

Catholics agree. But your citation doesn’t prove your assertion.

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven**-through a purification594 or immediately**,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

The Church teaches the same thing. Just as Revelation and the Church teach, Purgatory and all other states will be ended.

What is your explanation for Revelation telling us that Death and Hades will be destroyed?

We all (I believe) would conclude that Hades,being that place in the underworld ,as seen in Luke 16,where there is a contrasting the terrible,unalterable state of the departed lost ;with those who are enjoying an endless joy, and are seen "in Abraham’s bosom ".
Because the purpose of this place ,was to be a “prison” until the day of judgement ,in its nature it was meant to be a temporary location ( although not as temporary as those seen in “Abraham’s bosom”)

Rev14:13 “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,write ,Blessed are the dead that die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea,saith the Spirit,that they may rest from their labours;and their works do follow them.”

Could these be those who in Rev 2:11 heard the voice : That is,of what “the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.” And obeyed that voice?

Also seen in Rev 20:6 " Blessed and holy is he that hath
part in the first resurrection,on such the second death hath no power"

The "first resurrection " here mentioned here cannot mean the resurrection of the dead on the last day because then are both sheep and the goats ( wheat and tares) raised together; so it must be those raised in Christ when he “first” resurrected.

Your own verse Rev 20:14 “And death and hell”(Hades)“were cast into the lake of fire.This is the second death.”

As all the lost ( including those who up to this point ,were prisoners in Hades),are ,in the following verse , seen also to be " cast into the lake of fire", could not “the lake of fire” and “the second death”(which is unending in its nature ), be one and the same thing?And therefore the first “death” (being only upon the bodies of the departed) is also of a temporary nature,and is also seen no more , being “cast into the lake of fire”.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

We all (I believe) would conclude that Hades,being that place in the underworld ,as seen in Luke 16,where there is a contrasting the terrible,unalterable state of the departed lost ;with those who are enjoying an endless joy, and are seen "in Abraham’s bosom ".
Because the purpose of this place ,was to be a “prison” until the day of judgement ,in its nature it was meant to be a temporary location ( although not as temporary as those seen in “Abraham’s bosom”)

Rev14:13 “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,write ,Blessed are the dead that die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea,saith the Spirit,that they may rest from their labours;and their works do follow them.”

Could these be those who in Rev 2:11 heard the voice : That is,of what “the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.” And obeyed that voice?

Also seen in Rev 20:6 " Blessed and holy is he that hath
part in the first resurrection,on such the second death hath no power"

The "first resurrection " here mentioned here cannot mean the resurrection of the dead on the last day because then are both sheep and the goats ( wheat and tares) raised together; so it must be those raised in Christ when he “first” resurrected.

Your own verse Rev 20:14 “And death and hell”(Hades)“were cast into the lake of fire.This is the second death.”

As all the lost ( including those who up to this point ,were prisoners in Hades),are ,in the following verse , seen also to be " cast into the lake of fire", could not “the lake of fire” and “the second death”(which is unending in its nature ), be one and the same thing?And therefore the first “death” (being only upon the bodies of the departed) is also of a temporary nature,and is also seen no more , being “cast into the lake of fire”.

If the above understanding of Rev 20:14 is accurate, where things temporary (death and hell) come to an end,( "cast into the lake of fire) and these same temporary things are then seen ,to be replaced :
with the eternal reality they represent ( everlasting destruction in the body:“the second death”);
Why then,for those convinced of its existence, does the account of that temporary state of “Purgatory” seem to find no place in the writers mind ,that is, in such a place where the final,everlasting truths of things temporary and eternal are weighed in the balance?

It is an interesting point to notice also that in the quoted verse Rev 14:13,those saints seen to die from henceforth are in a blessed state after their death and also do " rest from their labours"

 

[Jon_S_1]

If the above understanding of Rev 20:14 is accurate, where things temporary (death and hell) come to an end,( "cast into the lake of fire) and these same temporary things are then seen ,to be replaced :
with the eternal reality they represent ( everlasting destruction in the body:“the second death”);
Why then,for those convinced of its existence, does the account of that temporary state of “Purgatory” seem to find no place in the writers mind ,that is, in such a place where the final,everlasting truths of things temporary and eternal are weighed in the balance?

It is an interesting point to notice also that in the quoted verse Rev 14:13,those saints seen to die from henceforth are in a blessed state after their death and also do " rest from their labours"

Because Purgatory is not a third place.

It is heaven.

It is the final transformation of our souls as we enter heaven.

Why do you believe God cannot do this?

Why do you have a problem with this idea (please say personally not with a long list of Bibke verses, the bible is our holy book. I know what it says and hold this doctrine).

 

[zz912]

We all (I believe) would conclude that Hades,being that place in the underworld ,as seen in Luke 16,where there is a contrasting the terrible,unalterable state of the departed lost ;with those who are enjoying an endless joy, and are seen "in Abraham’s bosom ".
Because the purpose of this place ,was to be a “prison” until the day of judgement ,in its nature it was meant to be a temporary location ( although not as temporary as those seen in “Abraham’s bosom”)

Rev14:13 “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,write ,Blessed are the dead that die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea,saith the Spirit,that they may rest from their labours;and their works do follow them.”

Could these be those who in Rev 2:11 heard the voice : That is,of what “the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.” And obeyed that voice?

Also seen in Rev 20:6 " Blessed and holy is he that hath
part in the first resurrection,on such the second death hath no power"

The "first resurrection " here mentioned here cannot mean the resurrection of the dead on the last day because then are both sheep and the goats ( wheat and tares) raised together; so it must be those raised in Christ when he “first” resurrected.

Your own verse Rev 20:14 “And death and hell”(Hades)“were cast into the lake of fire.This is the second death.”

As all the lost ( including those who up to this point ,were prisoners in Hades),are ,in the following verse , seen also to be " cast into the lake of fire", could not “the lake of fire” and “the second death”(which is unending in its nature ), be one and the same thing?And therefore the first “death” (being only upon the bodies of the departed) is also of a temporary nature,and is also seen no more , being “cast into the lake of fire”.

So you agree with the Church that there are temporary states, and these are places/states other than heaven or hell. But you are upset that the Church has labeled or named one of those states as Purgatory. I don’t understand your logic.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

So you agree with the Church that there are temporary states, and these are places/states other than heaven or hell. But you are upset that the Church has labeled or named one of those states as Purgatory. I don’t understand your logic.

My agreement (or trust) is in the holy writings, and with ( or in) God the author of the same scriptural truth.
Since we all die, and this body will one day drop off, who would deny the existence of a temporary state?
From your own starting point , your own logic is ,in it’s very essence, superfluous in its nature.
Therefore I will return to what God (through the holy Apostle:John ) has written:

Hell ( Hades) and-the first- death (identified as such, by the Holy Ghost ) are both seen" cast into the lake of fire" : " this is the second death"( that is eternal death in its nature)

You also say above that I agree with your church :" that there are temporary states,and these are places/states other than heaven or hell"

I would disagree with this, which is , I presume your own (perhaps not your church’s) assessment of our “mutual understanding” of the available evidence. (from a scriptural point of view )

But as the same condition prevails,whether in this life,Hell (or Hades) is present when Christ is absent( "dead in tresspasses and sins )

when Hell is absent (with Christ ruling within),there is Heaven upon earth;

Or whether( as has been stated already ) in “Abrahams bosom”: Heavenly joys resound;
or in Hades: hellish torment never abates,no not for even a sip of water on the tongue.

It is therefore my opinion that at all times and when time is no more, only two states ( of being) is in evidence.

 

[crystal_waters]

It was said to me that the above passage teaches only two fixed states in eternity.

It then occurred to me almost immediately :
(1)These were Old Testament saints illustrated not the New Testament saints; and

(2)That at least this is not doctrine relating to ones salvation !

To which points ,I received the following response :

(1) That although referencing Old Testament saints it was (a) Luke , a New Testament writer ‘s account of:
(b) Jesus’ very own portrayal of truth relating to punishment in eternity: intended for New Testament readers; and

(2) If one has got the ending wrong,what is the likelihood that they have got the beginning right either; and if wrong on these points you would not arrive at your preferred destination;
but would be in that fixed state where you "shalt by no means come out of "“until you have paid the uttermost farthing”.

How as a Catholic do you answer such a thing?

The two fixed states are heaven and hell…purgatory isnt a fixed state as if one goes there they are only there temporarily while their soul is cleansed.